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Premium Ammo and Game Inequality

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Shell_Damage #1 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 03:52

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I have not posted a compliant ever but WOT is about to cross a line if the rumors are true.

 

Premium Ammo Damage Reduction!

Let look at the issues that any reasonable person would have with this.

1. What is the #1 reason people use Gold Ammo?

2 tiers down against tanks with 2 to 3 times your hit points, twice your armor, 1.5 to 5 times you damage per shot, 1.5 to 3 times your DPM, and 1.5 to 3 times your penetration.

Lets set that up: you are driving a Cromwell 750hp and are facing a O-Ho 1700hp. I will assume both tanks are equipped/ not stock. Cromwell Normal Pen 145 and DPM 2,166. O-Ho Hull armor 200/105/150 turret armor 200/200/200. With out premium ammo you have no chance one on one against a average skilled player. Only chance is from the side of the O-Ho and by the way the O-Ho only needs to shoot you three times which he can do in under 27 sec while you have to pen him every shot for over 47 sec. With premium ammo it is still a long shot but your pen goes up to 205 so even from the front you have a chance to pen. Now the match up i mention is not as bad or happens as often as say a IS-3 against a Type-5 or S-Con or the list goes on. 

2. Lets look at the change WOT is rumored to make. Lets increase the penetration of premium ammo and drop the damage per shot. Looking back at the Cromwell against the O-Ho the only thing i see is now you are ineffective even with premium ammo as.

 

Stop catering to the crybabies. Every time WOT makes changes to accommodate the crybabies the game gets worse. Its a skill based game and lets face it not everyone will be successful. We don't all get trophies for showing up. Someone has to lose! For some of us losing is not a bad thing it is what motivates us to work harder to get better. If WOT makes this change then no matter how hard you work or how good you are you will fail to be effective in a majority of your matches.



BigDollarBillz #2 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:02

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I thought on the test server they are working on buffing the ap rounds and the hp of the tanks. But not touching the apcr or hesh rounds. I could be wrong, but I think that is what I read the other day.

Insanefriend #3 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:03

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You must not keep up on the news, last they said they were going to see if buffing all hp along with damage done by standard rounds works.  They were testing premium ammo damage reduction as a option to stop premium spam.

 

Also a cromwell vs a O-Ho isn't as bad as you make out.  So long as you never directly brawl the O-Ho it's pretty easy to run circles around them.

 


Edited by Insanefriend, Jun 07 2019 - 04:04.


Shell_Damage #4 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:05

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I just heard a rummer about reducing the damage of premium ammo and started thinking about how that would affect my game play. What i came up with was not good. I do hope i am wrong about what they are trying to do!!

 



DeviouslyCursed #5 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:28

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View PostShell_Damage, on Jun 07 2019 - 03:52, said:

I have not posted a compliant ever but WOT is about to cross a line if the rumors are true.

 

Premium Ammo Damage Reduction!

Let look at the issues that any reasonable person would have with this.

1. What is the #1 reason people use Gold Ammo?

2 tiers down against tanks with 2 to 3 times your hit points, twice your armor, 1.5 to 5 times you damage per shot, 1.5 to 3 times your DPM, and 1.5 to 3 times your penetration.

Lets set that up: you are driving a Cromwell 750hp and are facing a O-Ho 1700hp. I will assume both tanks are equipped/ not stock. Cromwell Normal Pen 145 and DPM 2,166. O-Ho Hull armor 200/105/150 turret armor 200/200/200. With out premium ammo you have no chance one on one against a average skilled player. Only chance is from the side of the O-Ho and by the way the O-Ho only needs to shoot you three times which he can do in under 27 sec while you have to pen him every shot for over 47 sec. With premium ammo it is still a long shot but your pen goes up to 205 so even from the front you have a chance to pen. Now the match up i mention is not as bad or happens as often as say a IS-3 against a Type-5 or S-Con or the list goes on. 

2. Lets look at the change WOT is rumored to make. Lets increase the penetration of premium ammo and drop the damage per shot. Looking back at the Cromwell against the O-Ho the only thing i see is now you are ineffective even with premium ammo as.

 

Stop catering to the crybabies. Every time WOT makes changes to accommodate the crybabies the game gets worse. Its a skill based game and lets face it not everyone will be successful. We don't all get trophies for showing up. Someone has to lose! For some of us losing is not a bad thing it is what motivates us to work harder to get better. If WOT makes this change then no matter how hard you work or how good you are you will fail to be effective in a majority of your matches.

 

The number one reason to use prem ammo is lack of skill.

 

In your example: Kill any supporting tanks the O Ho has, then drive up beside him. Eat a shot if necessary, and side hug him. Laugh while you pen him with standard ammo, and he can't even lower his gun enough to shoot you. Easy damage farm. Where's the problem?



spy1309 #6 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:39

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View PostInsanefriend, on Jun 06 2019 - 22:03, said:

You must not keep up on the news, last they said they were going to see if buffing all hp along with damage done by standard rounds works.  They were testing premium ammo damage reduction as a option to stop premium spam.

 

Also a cromwell vs a O-Ho isn't as bad as you make out.  So long as you never directly brawl the O-Ho it's pretty easy to run circles around them.

 

That was just an example the OP gave you there are hundreds of permutations and he is right lets say a Matilda vs OI etc



HeraldricKnight #7 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:42

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View PostShell_Damage, on Jun 07 2019 - 02:52, said:

Lets set that up: you are driving a Cromwell 750hp and are facing a O-Ho 1700hp. I will assume both tanks are equipped/ not stock. Cromwell Normal Pen 145 and DPM 2,166. O-Ho Hull armor 200/105/150 turret armor 200/200/200. With out premium ammo you have no chance one on one against a average skilled player. Only chance is from the side of the O-Ho and by the way the O-Ho only needs to shoot you three times which he can do in under 27 sec while you have to pen him every shot for over 47 sec. With premium ammo it is still a long shot but your pen goes up to 205 so even from the front you have a chance to pen. Now the match up i mention is not as bad or happens as often as say a IS-3 against a Type-5 or S-Con or the list goes on. 

2. Lets look at the change WOT is rumored to make. Lets increase the penetration of premium ammo and drop the damage per shot. Looking back at the Cromwell against the O-Ho the only thing i see is now you are ineffective even with premium ammo as.

 

Stop catering to the crybabies. Every time WOT makes changes to accommodate the crybabies the game gets worse. Its a skill based game and lets face it not everyone will be successful. We don't all get trophies for showing up. Someone has to lose! For some of us losing is not a bad thing it is what motivates us to work harder to get better. If WOT makes this change then no matter how hard you work or how good you are you will fail to be effective in a majority of your matches.

 

This is why I think it's the group of mouth-breathing Medium Tank drivers that are so deathly afraid of gold rounds changing, because you have a mobile, low profile machine against a slow, towering behemoth and yet the Medium Tank driver still needs gold rounds so he can sit far away and mindlessly derp shots into gigantic profile. 

 

And if someone has to lose, why is it always the Heavy Tank? Why can't you lose?



Izgoy0899 #8 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:52

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I don't think players care about gold ammo, other than that it is getting spammed out like candy on Halloween.  Any nerf to it though really will not effect me in the game since, though not the greatest of players, I try to learn weak spots using standard ammo 95% of the time.  I'll only switch to gold in a few clutch situations, or I see no other options.....Or playing tanks like the Valentine II. 

 

As a LT main though I think the gold spam is ridiculous really, especially when being used on a tank you don't need it for.  Or the seal cubbers using full gold at Tier 2. 

 

And the last thing I'll be doing in a Cromwell is trying to go head on locking horns with an O-Ho.  I'll mosey myself to a new AO. 


Edited by Izgoy0899, Jun 07 2019 - 04:53.


KatzeWolf #9 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:54

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I don't have a single problem being low tier penetrating top tiers, aim for weak spots... problem solved.

 

The only "problems" I sometimes run into are against the super heavies like Type 5, but you can always flank them.



F1O1 #10 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:55

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View PostDeviouslyCursed, on Jun 07 2019 - 03:28, said:

 

The number one reason to use prem ammo is lack of skill.

 

In your example: Kill any supporting tanks the O Ho has, then drive up beside him. Eat a shot if necessary, and side hug him. Laugh while you pen him with standard ammo, and he can't even lower his gun enough to shoot you. Easy damage farm. Where's the problem?

 

The number one reason to use premium ammunition is to penetrate tanks like Maus and Type 5 and T110E3.

Tanks that aren't provided with suitable weaknesses located for people to sensibly aim at with AP.

 

You want lack of skill?  +2/-2 MM is lack of skill. A +2 raining hell on a bottom tier.  +/-25% RNG is lack of skill. 

lf lack of skill is your incompetent argument, than bad individuals with premium shells would be good. And good players without premium shells would be bad. And that is most certainly not the case.

 

 

 



golruul #11 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 04:59

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I have a better idea: Leave premium ammo how it is and make maps more open to allow proper flanking (like Frontlines).  Then the Cromwell and all the lights can flank, as they should be doing, and won't have much of a problem attacking side/rear armor of O-HO with standard ammo.

 

 

 

Lol!  Who am I kidding.  That'll never happen.



Shell_Damage #12 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 05:00

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You can give all kinds of one off situations about the Cromwell and the O-Ho. I used them as an example. There are much worse mismatches in the game that with out Premium ammo are in almost every instance impossible. You talk about Skill as if that is all that it takes to win a mismatch. I contend that skill is not always enough and in some cases not effective at all. You want to relay on your team to clear every enemy so you can have this perfect setup. I say that the setup is never perfect and in fact it is more likely filled with obstetrical and hindrances. 

 

Simple fact. Modify the ammo and break the game in several ways.

 



HeraldricKnight #13 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 05:05

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View PostF1O1, on Jun 07 2019 - 03:55, said:

 

The number one reason to use premium ammunition is to penetrate tanks like Maus and Type 5 and T110E3.

Tanks that aren't provided with suitable weaknesses located for people to sensibly aim at with AP.

 

You want lack of skill?  +2/-2 MM is lack of skill. A +2 raining hell on a bottom tier.  +/-25% RNG is lack of skill. 

lf lack of skill is your incompetent argument, than bad individuals with premium shells would be good. And good players without premium shells would be bad. And that is most certainly not the case.

 

And what did people do when MM could swing +3 and gold rounds were gold?

 

You can easily inflate your PR and WN8 by using gold. This is a fact. Bad players use this inflation and say they're good. Good players are often quick to the 2 key if they want to keep face punching things, because movement is complicated outside of twitching around to block shots. 



F1O1 #14 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 05:22

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+3? 

l remember playing light tanks at +5.  Heavy tanks and artillery had +4.  Without gold ammunition, because it cost gold only.

Good palyers were still good, even then. Good palyers aren't defined by premium ammunition. And neither does premium ammunition boost bads.

 

Will premium ammo assist a player improve? Sure will. But you are talking about turning a 4K PR player into 5K. 46%W/R to maybe 48. There are fundamental setbacks and flaws which restrict the success of bad players. And that isn't just ammo, which is to blame. Premium ammo can increase a players PR and W/R over time. l do not doubt that. But it isn't by a measure of inflation. The increases wouldn't be noticeable.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=c6SaJsrJXHY

 

Forward to 08:30min and listen to his speech. 

Or you can watch the game, very fine performance.

 

Premium ammo doesn't define a players service record, nor does it boon it heftily. 

 

 

 



HeraldricKnight #15 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 05:27

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View PostF1O1, on Jun 07 2019 - 04:22, said:

 

Premium ammo doesn't define a players service record, nor does it boon it heftily. 

 

The E25, T67, and Scorpion (Just to name the obvious three) say differently. 



KatzeWolf #16 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 05:39

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99% of bottom tier tanks can penetrate top tier tanks...

Learn to play.



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #17 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 06:52

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this is not prem ammo reduction. they are screwing up the whole game

 

1. insane DPM buff of some tanks

2. insane buff to all TDs

3. insane buff to high alpha guns relative to HP increase. 1060 avg e4 shell???? remember when they reduced them from 850 because they were game breaking?? so lets bump it to 1060. meanwhile hp goes up what, 200hp? boo hoo! doesnt even cover 1 shot's worth of alpha increase.

4. buff to cancer. alpha is back to 1500 which means gg was close get blasted from orbit like in the old times, oh but htye get to keep their buffs to reload, aim + the stun bs.

 

This idea, if implemented to any degree, will result in this:

 

1. epic TD spam. there is already 10+ per team often, now it will be 15 vs 15. epic spam of cancer. so tds and cancer. 

2. wheeled [edited]with HE will be even better, since derptastic td players will never hit them anyway

3. render completely useless all prem tanks, except 1-2 

4. render completely useless so many tanks it wont even be funny. why play the is7?  why play china at all? 

5. dont rejoice that tanks that have crapprem pem (amx 30, tvp series) will get a buff with this. remember, they will shoot you back for way more too! how does that 1800 shot from a jpeg100 taste? 1400 from an e3? mmmm tasty! 

6. strvs will literally become even more cancerous. 6k dpm.. thats like........... yeah. badgers, torts. all tds as i already said 

 

heavy tank winners:

 

1. chieftain.

2. sconq

3. 277

4. 260

5. 57 potentially. 

6. ???? fill it in

 

med winners:

1. 907

2. 140/62

3. k91

4. pizza65 potentially. sadly like the leopard, that pos feels like 220 pen on any ammo. but in general, clip potential for the luls

5. Bat[edited]s. all of them

6. ??? fill it in

 

 


Edited by jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, Jun 07 2019 - 07:03.


Garnett101st #18 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 11:40

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You want people to stop using gold? Reducing the HUGE variation of RNG...

You want people to shoot more gold ammo, while reducing the win rates of the better players? Buff everything but gold ammo.


WG is so lazy, one couke even argue bias that they require RNG & Nerfed gold ammo arounds to keep most players going above 55% win rate, instead of reducing RNG and explainig the game mechabics to new players.

 

Edited by Garnett101st, Jun 07 2019 - 11:41.


Wraytl #19 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 13:01

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View PostKatzeWolf, on Jun 07 2019 - 05:39, said:

99% of bottom tier tanks can penetrate top tier tanks...

Learn to play.

 

30 games = sage wisdom. Sure you can penetrate, but taking 20 shots to score 1 penn isn't the game i came to play. 1 bounce off off a weak spot, when i'm low tier and we are down 2 tanks, you better believe i hit the 2 key. A weak spot with no angle says i am supposed to penn. RNG says i still have a big chance to bounce over and over, this is a problem. Its not a matter that you can penn, its a matter of scoring, i get nothing for a bounce on a weak spot, no penn means at the end of the game, no experience and no credits. Yaah, that's fun

jeb2 #20 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 13:21

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How about:

 

1) reducing the price of gold rounds to close or equal to standard AP rounds,

2) reducing damage of gold rounds, AND

3) increasing their penetration.

 

This would give three clear choices:

 

1) Low pen, high alpha HE,

2) High pen, low alpha (was gold) OR 

3) Standard pen and standard alpha


Edited by jeb2, Jun 07 2019 - 13:22.






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