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Premium Ammo and Game Inequality

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Norseskald #21 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 13:36

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View PostShell_Damage, on Jun 07 2019 - 03:52, said:

I have not posted a compliant ever but WOT is about to cross a line if the rumors are true.

 

Premium Ammo Damage Reduction!

Let look at the issues that any reasonable person would have with this.

1. What is the #1 reason people use Gold Ammo?

2 tiers down against tanks with 2 to 3 times your hit points, twice your armor, 1.5 to 5 times you damage per shot, 1.5 to 3 times your DPM, and 1.5 to 3 times your penetration.

Lets set that up: you are driving a Cromwell 750hp and are facing a O-Ho 1700hp. I will assume both tanks are equipped/ not stock. Cromwell Normal Pen 145 and DPM 2,166. O-Ho Hull armor 200/105/150 turret armor 200/200/200. With out premium ammo you have no chance one on one against a average skilled player. Only chance is from the side of the O-Ho and by the way the O-Ho only needs to shoot you three times which he can do in under 27 sec while you have to pen him every shot for over 47 sec. With premium ammo it is still a long shot but your pen goes up to 205 so even from the front you have a chance to pen. Now the match up i mention is not as bad or happens as often as say a IS-3 against a Type-5 or S-Con or the list goes on. 

2. Lets look at the change WOT is rumored to make. Lets increase the penetration of premium ammo and drop the damage per shot. Looking back at the Cromwell against the O-Ho the only thing i see is now you are ineffective even with premium ammo as.

 

Stop catering to the crybabies. Every time WOT makes changes to accommodate the crybabies the game gets worse. Its a skill based game and lets face it not everyone will be successful. We don't all get trophies for showing up. Someone has to lose! For some of us losing is not a bad thing it is what motivates us to work harder to get better. If WOT makes this change then no matter how hard you work or how good you are you will fail to be effective in a majority of your matches.

 

its not the fact that some people actually use premi ammo like you have stated, its the fact that its rampant from tiers 2-10, and for no reason but to pad those stats. ive heard so many times " oh why complain when a normal shell would have penned you anyways", but that is untrue, with a normal shell there is a higher chance to bounce, (as you have stated before). sorry your arguement is good, but its a team game, if your in that situation your team failed, but you believe you should be able to take a victory from a team that preformed better by dabbing the 2 key instead of out playing them. if wg was to add a vote system where both teams could vote for people at the end of the match and those people receive more credits/exp/ or some type of free cammo, you would see players actually preform better and actually care. works great in overwatch.  wg promotes the game as a team game, which it isnt, and as far as ive seen in 7 years or so hasnt been. its about who has the prettiest color and can be the most toxic.

atila_xD #22 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 13:57

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Tbh this is what happens when you make tanks on the emphasis around premium ammo

 

Defender: Dumb armor, the LFP is still uber armored and troll especially on a slight angle and same tier med/heavy tanks, some t9 meds ofc. Fix? Premium

the K: Although one of the more op 8s still has 198 pen. Yea have u seen anybody shooting standard in that? No.

T44-100: Same idea, 192 pen, firing standard is like looking to get out traded/outplayed 

O-I/ONI/OHO/TYPE4/TYPE5 , these tanks are literally the sole definition of why premium ammo is more significant for use then anything.

 

 

This is the problem, instead of caring about balance you just go straight out and buff armor instead, they kept repeating the mistake and kinda brought at this situation where an only viable fix is overhaul to the tanks THEN do premium ammo changes

 

Hell i could go on about stuff like the e50, t54, theres a lot more, but you get the idea, either major overhaul for balance or you completely trash a ton of tanks since the only good way to show battle efficiency in them was to fire premium.


Edited by atila_xD, Jun 07 2019 - 14:03.


Izgoy0899 #23 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 14:09

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View PostWraytl, on Jun 07 2019 - 13:01, said:

 

30 games = sage wisdom. Sure you can penetrate, but taking 20 shots to score 1 penn isn't the game i came to play. 1 bounce off off a weak spot, when i'm low tier and we are down 2 tanks, you better believe i hit the 2 key. A weak spot with no angle says i am supposed to penn. RNG says i still have a big chance to bounce over and over, this is a problem. Its not a matter that you can penn, its a matter of scoring, i get nothing for a bounce on a weak spot, no penn means at the end of the game, no experience and no credits. Yaah, that's fun

 

I guess you missed his signature at the bottom, just like everyone misses mine thinking I have only 470+ games played. 

 

He actually has 9,800 games played, which is twice as many as you have here.  Because WG doesn't have regions connected you have to be careful as players could be coming from other servers or console. 


Edited by Izgoy0899, Jun 07 2019 - 14:12.


Tokolosk #24 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 15:20

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View PostGarnett101st, on Jun 07 2019 - 12:40, said:

You want people to stop using gold? Reducing the HUGE variation of RNG...

You want people to shoot more gold ammo, while reducing the win rates of the better players? Buff everything but gold ammo.


WG is so lazy, one couke even argue bias that they require RNG & Nerfed gold ammo arounds to keep most players going above 55% win rate, instead of reducing RNG and explainig the game mechabics to new players.

 

 

RNG is imho the core of the problem, not premium ammo. Learning to aim is one thing. Having 99% of the tank in your reticle and the round just wooshes away. Premium ammo is just a way to reduce the necessity to aim. 

 

If you want arcade then have ammo with tradeoffs: high pen = low damage. High damage = low pen.

If you want realism then have researchable ammo with its own properties.

 

I prefer the latter as it can make the game more interesting, eg:

Ammo that is good at killing crew or equipment, but low damage.

 

In other words WG, make the game more interesting, tactical and fun. Not a straight premium vs non-premium game.



Jryder #25 Posted Jun 07 2019 - 16:26

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The parameters of premium ammo aren't the problem and never has been. The problem is that players have the ability to shoot nothing but premium shells and do so.

 

It's a matter of supply and access.

 

Premium has to be in the game so removing it is out.

 

You can't just take everyone's credits/make premium too expensive to use so that they can no longer buy premium either.

 

Premium shell parameters have been tuned to be finely integrated with the overall game structure. Changing them will have ramifications. All of the reasons for premium shells to exist will still exist. Anyway, simply reducing premium damage will only result in even more of it being used because people load for the penetration, unless you nerf it to the point of being quite literally useless.

 

Limited premium loadout renders all of the overly complicated and sure to create other problems 'solutions' moot AND actually solves the supposed problem of premium spam.



Shell_Damage #26 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 01:43

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The comments make me laugh!

WOT Stop changing the game to cater to the Crybabies!!!

 

It's that simple.



F1O1 #27 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 03:11

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View PostWhiteBishop, on Jun 07 2019 - 04:27, said:

 

The E25, T67, and Scorpion (Just to name the obvious three) say differently. 

 

E25 has pref MM, so it does not use as much premium ammunition as people think.

 

T67 has awful matchmaker, not being able to see -2  tier 3, yet it gets dragged up +2 to tier 7. 

Even with this in mind, the great players l do see playing T67, still don't even load 50% prem

 

Which scorpion, M56 or Skorp G? Both of them really don't spam too much prem anyhow.

 

Prem spam is usually from tanks like T54, or object 416, or light tanks like LT432/Type 64. 

lnstead of E25, which has speed and camo, things like AT15A more commonly spam prem, or A45.

Low tiers like KV220, T14, Excelsior, StuH lV are also common premium shell spammers. (because very low AP)

Autoloader tanks like AMX1375 / 57, T71 DA, T69, T54E1, Skoda T25 also oft seen premium spammers  (again low AP)

 

 

 

 



DeviouslyCursed #28 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 03:14

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View PostF1O1, on Jun 07 2019 - 04:55, said:

 

The number one reason to use premium ammunition is to penetrate tanks like Maus and Type 5 and T110E3.

Tanks that aren't provided with suitable weaknesses located for people to sensibly aim at with AP.

 

You want lack of skill?  +2/-2 MM is lack of skill. A +2 raining hell on a bottom tier.  +/-25% RNG is lack of skill. 

lf lack of skill is your incompetent argument, than bad individuals with premium shells would be good. And good players without premium shells would be bad. And that is most certainly not the case.

 

 

 

 

Did I hit a nerve? No where did I say a baddie firing prem would be good, and my post flat out states a good player doesn't need prem to be good. Were you too busy seeing red because you sling prem and got offended?

spud_tuber #29 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 03:34

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View PostJryder, on Jun 07 2019 - 09:26, said:

The parameters of premium ammo aren't the problem and never has been. The problem is that players have the ability to shoot nothing but premium shells and do so.

 

It's a matter of supply and access.

 

Premium has to be in the game so removing it is out.

 

You can't just take everyone's credits/make premium too expensive to use so that they can no longer buy premium either.

 

Premium shell parameters have been tuned to be finely integrated with the overall game structure. Changing them will have ramifications. All of the reasons for premium shells to exist will still exist. Anyway, simply reducing premium damage will only result in even more of it being used because people load for the penetration, unless you nerf it to the point of being quite literally useless.

 

Limited premium loadout renders all of the overly complicated and sure to create other problems 'solutions' moot AND actually solves the supposed problem of premium spam.

Loadout limits aren't the worst idea.   There are a handful of issues and/or difficult balance decisions with the idea though.

 

The biggest issue is perhaps that it still doesn't fix the issue of prem ammo negating or significantly reducing a major strength of certain tanks(ie, the armor's ability to be a HP multiplier) unless there are a lot of heavily armored tanks in that particular battle.  Admittedly,  armor balance is already a mess in part thanks to WG's attempt to fix this issue via armor buffs.   Anyway, moving on. 

 

The difficult balancing decisions will be deciding what the limit will be based on(raw shell count, % shell capacity, raw potential damage, etc), whether it will be across the board, or tier, class, and/or individual tank+gun combo specific limit, and what the limit will actually be.

 

Oh,  and I guess a brief stop by the legal department to make sure there will be no issues with limiting the prem loadout on prem tanks.

 

Oh, and marketing to make sure it won't hurt the bottom line too much... lol

 

In the end, though,  limits may be the easiest and least likely to cause major disruptions move WG could make to at least get a handle on things.



AppleTank8 #30 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 04:16

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The existence of prem shells make only super heavies viable. Somewhat armored heavies would be near unable to use their armor if Prem shells are used "correctly" and only used when they show up.

 

On a side note, I feel like WG buffing bigger calibers more make the game even more biased towards alpha vs RoF. Small gunned tanks are already not as threatening to fight.



sargev55 #31 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 04:27

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Screw it all, just play low to mid tiers and quit [edited], 8+ is absolute trash and not fun for like the last year, might as well have some fun if you are in fact, playing a game for, 'fun'

F1O1 #32 Posted Jun 08 2019 - 05:07

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Block Quote

The number one reason to use prem ammo is lack of skill.

 

In your example: Kill any supporting tanks the O Ho has, then drive up beside him. Eat a shot if necessary, and side hug him. Laugh while you pen him with standard ammo, and he can't even lower his gun enough to shoot you. Easy damage farm. Where's the problem?

 

View PostDeviouslyCursed, on Jun 08 2019 - 02:14, said:

 

Did I hit a nerve? No where did I say a baddie firing prem would be good, and my post flat out states a good player doesn't need prem to be good. Were you too busy seeing red because you sling prem and got offended?

 

You did not hit a nerve.

lt is a perfectly logical explanation.

 

You said the number one reason prem rounds are used, is because skills are lacking. And that is most certainly not the case.

 

#  terrible RNG breadth causes freak non pens, to things which should otherwise be certain

#  +2/-2 MM causes alot of underdogs, who feel exactly like that, underdog picked on by bullies

#  WG funny notion of removing tank weakspots, up armouring the most ridiculous of spots

#  tank drivers who want the added advantage of DPM in high pressure scenarios

#  map design rather lackluster, promoting forward confrontation and being boxed in

#  Chasing tank Marks of Excellence, tends to have users value more reliability

#  Autoloader tanks with too low AP shells for consistent usage 

 

lf it came down to the wire, l am sure very very very very little of the world of tanks population.....maliciously, inconsiderately, snidely, disgustingly use premium ammunition just to make enemies mad. Very little. For whatever the reason, and l provided good ones above, rest assured the user most likely had a merited reason to shoot prem rounds. And what does it matter? Everyone and anyone has access to them?

 

 

 



Knarfis #33 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 01:01

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I think we have all forgotten the premise of WOT's.  It is first and foremost a strategy game with armored tanks.  Strategy of any sort typically deals with risk vs reward, boldness vs cautiousness, and compromises (IE: Heavily armored tanks are not very fast or maneuverable but can take quite a beating)

 

Current gold/premium rounds have no strategy behind them.  They were designed to negate any and all armor (for the most part) with little need to lean on player skill.  The result is a method of easy wins, easy kills, and absolutely no strategy associated with the decision to load such rounds.

 

The solution is simple; bring strategy back into the game.  Yes, let these premium rounds have the ability to pen what ever they are shot at but at a much more reduced damage factor (say between 30%-50%).  Hell make them the same price as standard ammo as these ammo types should and need to be factored into the overall strategy of ones game play.  To compensate the revenue loss for WarGames, bring in different type of ammo that further increases strategy without taking away player experience.  For instance, smoke rounds.  Smoke rounds will not directly affect specific players, but indirectly, could change the battle field significantly if used right.  Bring in Canister rounds to be shot at Light tanks or blindly into a base being captured.  But to have one round that trumps all other rounds and is the go to for any and all battles does not make sense.  That does not exist in the real world, so why should it be here in WOT's?

 

The bottom line is that strategy and skill needs to come back into the game.  There is nothing wrong with asking or challenging the players to find new and innovative ways to battle one another.  There is something inherently wrong with putting a mechanic into the game that completely nullifies the fundamentals of tank warfare by removing damage mitigation from the equation.  Overall the gaming experience today is not all that fun because the strategy no longer exists.  Replaced by wallet warriors and players with very deep pockets who can spam gold rounds with no counter to said action.  There have been many other topics brought up; increasing overall damage on standard rounds, changing the MM (again), adding more HP to the tanks in game.  Personally, I really like the MM now a days and I would agree more HP would be great as the battles (and subsequent strategy) are far to short as I find my self bouncing in and out of games quite quickly now a days, making each match more and more meaningless.

 

Knarfis


Edited by Knarfis, Jul 02 2019 - 01:15.






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