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Okay, let's just give new players some serious training wheels.


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RunDownBlaster #1 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 12:33

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Here's what I'm thinking. I am aware of a problem that might become very evident as you read this, but I'll address that at the bottom.

 

1 - Crew Training for non-premium Tier I, Tier II, and Tier III vehicles is removed. Any crew member trained for them presently, or made for them after their removal, is considered to have General Training. Any crew member placed into an affected vehicle, regardless of whether they have General Training or Specific Training, is considered to have 100% (unmodified) in their Major Qualification, plus 100% in all Skills and Perks. A crew member who has General Training will still have their real Experience tracked, and may be retrained for a Tier IV or higher vehicle at no cost or loss of Experience. Once a crew member has Specific Training, they cannot revert to General Training.

 

2 - All equipment presently assigned to non-premium Tier I, Tier II, and Tier III vehicles is detached and returned to the Depot at no cost. The affected vehicles also may no longer use Enhanced Equipment. Instead, they now have access to a new branch of equipment, the "Simple" series ("Simple Enhanced Gun Laying Drive", "Simple Ventilation System", "Simple Gun Shell Rammer", so on). All Simple equipment is freely available (you don't buy them, you just have an infinite supply of everything at all times), and may be detached at no cost even if the standard version of the equipment is Complex. In addition to this, every affected vehicle is given a standard loadout of Simple equipment (which may vary between vehicles) when acquired so that even a brand new player yet to dive into their first round can't miss it, though there is nothing stopping anyone from changing this loadout, of course.

 

3 - All consumables presently assigned to non-premium Tier I, Tier II, and Tier III vehicles are removed and returned to the Depot. Similarly to the Simple series, they are replaced with an infinite supply of parallel consumables that may not be used in Tier II-III premium or Tier IV+ vehicles. The standard loadout for all vehicles is a Large Repair Kit, a Large First-Aid Kit, and the appropriate food, though as with the Simple series this may be changed up freely.

 

4 - Directives may no longer be used by Tier I, Tier II, or Tier III non-premium vehicles. There's too much variance in them, so it's better to just take them out of the equation altogether in this case.

 

That's my rough pitch. It completely levels the playing field for the +/-1 Tiers, aside from premium vehicles. I will openly admit that there is at least one contentious point in all this, though. Tier IV. I can't gauge off the back of my hand how Tier IIIs being supercharged would affect Tier IVs when they're matched together. One solution would be to supercharge Tier IV non-premiums as well only when matched with Tier IIIs, but I feel the potentially massive variance in performance between rounds for IVs as a result of that could be jarring. Another would be to close the starting tiers completely so that Tier IIIs never see Tier IVs, but that would mess up the likes of the Valentine LL and Pz. B2, so that's got major holes in it as well. I don't really have a perfect answer to this one, so any considerations would be welcome.

 

A new player as is, they're simply outmatched by those big bad clubbers even ignoring the skill difference. If two Tier Is go head to head, even if they're the same vehicle and equipped the same, if one has a 100% crew and some skills they're probably going to decimate the other if it has a piddly 50% or 75% crew. Giving new players such a massive statistical disadvantage is not good, so something does need to be done about it. Maybe there's a better way to go about it, I don't know. This is worth kicking around at least, I think. At least some of it.



Markd73 #2 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 13:49

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There are new players installing this game?

Mad_Dog_Seabee #3 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 14:33

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View PostMarkd73, on Jun 25 2019 - 05:49, said:

There are new players installing this game?

Thanks to our Community Contributors, yes. Hell, Claus just received the piece of trash Reward American Premium you get when one of your referrals hits tier X.



zhymm #4 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 15:05

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Good idea(s).  The learning curve for this game is incredibly steep.  Anything that would help a new player get a few more games under their belt might get them to stick around.  Lord knows WG does very little towards new player retainment.  I've often wondered how many "dormant" accounts exist on the server(s).  Ones where a new player installs the game, does the Boot Camp, then begins real play.  Less than 100 battles later, after being snot spewing beaten down, they give up in frustration, uninstall and leave.  And they tell their friends "don't bother, WoT is no fun".  I imagine the number of those accounts is embarrassingly high.

 

OMZ



owlgator #5 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 15:05

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I'm all for creative solutions to address the lack of skill demonstrated by the general player base, but I think there needs to be a bot-filled training area for new accounts.  Your solution may be nice if we were in a vacuum filled with 100% new players, however you are incentivizing experienced players to drop down and seal club in those tiers.

cavalry11 #6 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 15:16

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You will never be able to stop seal clubbing.

Insanefriend #7 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 17:01

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View PostMad_Dog_Seabee, on Jun 25 2019 - 07:33, said:

Thanks to our Community Contributors, yes. Hell, Claus just received the piece of trash Reward American Premium you get when one of your referrals hits tier X.

 

The t95e2 was under the old program, are they still giving it out?  



ChaseR392 #8 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 17:02

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View PostRunDownBlaster, on Jun 25 2019 - 12:33, said:

 If two Tier Is go head to head, even if they're the same vehicle and equipped the same, if one has a 100% crew and some skills they're probably going to decimate the other if it has a piddly 50% or 75% crew.

 

Unless it has changed in the last year... every new player gets a Tier 1 tank from every nation with a 100% crew.

 

IMO, talk of rampant "seal clubbing" at low tiers is just a convenient boogeyman used to explain away every loss and personal failure. Does it happen? Yes, but the assertion made by many is that in every low tier match the other team has 3 or 4 players with 40k battles using a tank with a 4 or 5 skill crew... which is utter BS. Low tier OP premiums? Just more salty tears.... plenty of solid low tier Premiums are a whopping $6-10 each... if you can't spring for at least 1 or 2, IMO, you aren't serious about putting any real effort or time into this game.

 

It doesn't take tens of thousands of battles and 4 or 5 skill crews to do well in low tier battles.... you only need decent tank with a 100% crew, a reasonable understanding of the games mechanics, some decent map awareness, and a working knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of the tanks you are most likely to face. 

 

The best way to get what a listed above? Invest a little time.... you can hand hold noobs all you want but the longer you coddle them worse the fall when you take away the help. How do you think these noobs are gonna react if they get a free ride up to Tier 4 (all the while thinking they are already Ace Tankers) when they get dropped into the real game? Hate to be so blunt.... but most of the "noob rage" in the Newcomers Forum comes from entitled millennials who are salty because they aren't unicums after 300 battles... no amount freebies is going to retain those players.  

 

That being said... I 100% support a low-tier "bot training mode" provided it doesn't contribute XP or stats to the actual game. It should be a tool for learning the game mechanics, maps and getting a feel for the new tank you just unlocked, nothing more.

 



dunniteowl #9 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 17:16

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That sentiment, "You can never stop Seal Clubbing" might be true to some degree.  That said, it's not so much that the Seal Clubbers are JUST more experienced, they also have the advantage of 'deep pockets' due to the length of time played compared to their 'prey players.'  So the suggestions of the OP does address the technological disparity presented.

 

I think that the Crew idea also addresses this idea as well (though I am not sure I fully grasp it and if I do, am not sure that I fully agree with it as presented) in terms of an experience 'wall' that long time players can 'present' to their New Clubbee Targets in terms of overwhelming Crew Experience as well.  So that's also a positive step as far as that goes.

 

Once again, the Consumables changes provide this same overarching 'umbrella' of field leveling at tiers 1-3, which I think are all positive momentum type ideas worth exploring.

 

 

I have an additional idea to add to this, one I have suggested prior to this:

 

Make certain Awards, Badges and Achievements unavailable below tier IV.  Like you can't get a Radley Walter's or something similar below tier IV, just like you can't mark tanks below tier V.  This would reduce the 'e-peen' factor a bit.

 

Additionally, PR and WR scoring in Tiers 1-3 could be 'battle limited' such that each vehicle at tier 1 would have a 300 to 500 Max Scored Battle Limit.  Then Tier 2 could up that by maybe a 500 to 800, such that they 'scale' with tier 1 and are less than what tier 3 would be 'limited' at for scoring purposes.

 

With limits on Max Battle Scoring for tanks at each of those tiers, once it is reached, if nothing else, a Seal Clubber has to either get a new tank to learn for it to count or be happy with winning and not having it 'nudge' their PR or WR.

 

 

The limits I propose would be subject to modification, I'm just spitballing off the top of my head while giving latitude for both sides of the low tier playing discussion.  I also recognize that NO ONE SOLUTION or change will 'end' Seal Clubbing once and for all that doesn't also destroy most of what makes this game as challenging as it can be, so the objective would be to reduce it to something that cannot really be an issue as a game wide thing.

 

The OP proposes some changes that might be more simply done by making the suggested tiers come 'equipped' with the changes suggested and whatever variations that can be had (like different Simple Modules or Small Consumables of some different sort, otherwise only small kits and manual ext) are easily changed within that set of restrictions within those tiers.

 

As to Crew, it might be easier and more effective to provide 100% Crews with new Tier 1, 2 or 3 tank purchases (maybe the fee will increase a bit, but still having that as a provision would provide 100% fully trained crew as a start) and maybe only 'allow' Sixth Sense on Commanders while all other Skills must be ground in the usual manner.

 

 

If the Battle Count limit was in place, maybe an additional thing would be to provide ONLY shell replacement and repair costs (or do them automatically) at those tiers once your Count Limit is reached.  Your crew gets no further XP and you are limited to no credits and automatically getting your shells/consumables/repairs taken care of and nothing more?

 

This would de-incentivize Seal Clubbers as well as Incentivize ALL players at some point in time to move up past these tiers as a rule unless they are grinding a new tank line/nation.

 

 

Good post, OP.  As I said, I am not sure I completely agree with all points as presented, however they were thought out and well presented on the whole and it is clear that the objective was to remove the supreme disparity in Equipment/Crew advantage an older, more experienced player can have over a new player.  I think it is a positive moving idea and worthy of consideration.  Maybe not eliminate some things as you propose, change a few and possibly a few additional modifications or additional conditions and things could be very workable in mostly reaching that objective.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO

 

Wing Up!



Tod_kommt #10 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 17:24

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Ban the Wheel.

Cheshil #11 Posted Jun 25 2019 - 20:08

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I agree with this 100%, especially the simple equipment system, except it shouldn't be free, but cost around 100k~ for a rammer. tier 1-3. you shouldn't be able to move them around without dismounting, but dismounting costs credits.

 

You shouldn't be able to train a 50% crew in a tier 1-3 vehicle. The game should teach new players how to retrain and such at tier 4-6. 20k credits for a 90% crew, and 75% for free in these tiers.

 

This should give seal clubbers a harder time, slightly. Not to mention this suggestion combined with the low tier health buff. seal clubbers will take longer to kill one opponent.



RunDownBlaster #12 Posted Jun 26 2019 - 03:17

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I'll add a few more statements.

 

1 - An alternative to the perfect skills would be to instead only supply Sixth Sense and maybe a few others not necessarily at 100%, and lock the rest out entirely. The reason I sided against this would be that it would permanently kneecap all affected vehicles, and give their premium counterparts a potential significant edge over them, with how potent Camouflage and others can be. It would also be better, I think, to acclimate new players to esoteric skills like Call for Vengeance and Eagle Eye so that they can be aware of their actual use and adequately judge them, something I'm sure a lot of players, even well into the game, haven't done because they sound so lousy on paper.

 

2 - I disagree with the Simple equipment costing credits because that flies in the face of the intent, which is completely leveling the playing field. This is a game where the vehicles' stats matter a lot, so during the bottom tiers that already get kid gloves with +/-1 matching, my goal is to enhance the kid gloves so that nobody can have better vehicle performance than anyone else because of a greater devotion of either time or cash. Someone said once that even seasoned players who reroll will get the tar beaten out of them starting out because of the performance of their vehicle compared to those floating around who have a few skills. I can believe it. Making it cheaper to retrain for a better crew in IV-VI isn't bad, though.

 

3 - Reducing the ability to pad stats with low tiers would also be a good idea, probably. I probably underestimate the lengths people will go to change their stated performance stats, so taking that out of the equation past a certain point would probably be in good interest.

 

That's all I got for now.



ChaseR392 #13 Posted Jun 26 2019 - 08:24

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View PostRunDownBlaster, on Jun 26 2019 - 03:17, said:

…. completely leveling the playing field. …. nobody can have better vehicle performance than anyone else because of a greater devotion of either time or cash.

 

3 - Reducing the ability to pad stats with low tiers would also be a good idea, probably. I probably underestimate the lengths people will go to change their stated performance stats, so taking that out of the equation past a certain point would probably be in good interest.

 

So what is the point of devoting time or cash then???

 

Why spend time and effort trying to get better? 

 

Why bother having tiers or even different tanks with different strengths or weaknesses?

 

What incentive is there to play this game if rewards earned by devoting time and effort are simply "taken away" so new players don't get their feelings hurt?

 

Lets all drive around in little identical tracked boxes with fixed guns sticking out the front with ammo that can't pen any of the other "box" tanks. Then after the 15 minute allotted battle time we can all set around the campfire and talk about how fair that was because nobodies feelings got hurt or egos got bruised.

 

You OVERESTIMATE how many people go to great lengths to "pad" their stats. The tomatoes vastly outnumber the unicums…. evil "seal clubbers" with their 7 skill crews in Tier III is just a convenient way to redirect blame. Nothing more.



RunDownBlaster #14 Posted Jun 26 2019 - 09:39

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Tier I, II, and III already get special treatment.

 

Open up the comparisons tab and do some comparisons of the same vehicle with the same modules, except one just has a 100% crew and the other is fully decked out with skills and equipment.

 

The difference can be staggering.



ChaseR392 #15 Posted Jun 26 2019 - 22:33

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View PostRunDownBlaster, on Jun 26 2019 - 09:39, said:

Open up the comparisons tab and do some comparisons of the same vehicle with the same modules, except one just has a 100% crew and the other is fully decked out with skills and equipment.

 

The difference can be staggering.

 

That may be true... but the whole thing is still based on an incorrect assumption.

 

You wrote:

 

"A new player as is, they're simply outmatched by those big bad clubbers even ignoring the skill difference. If two Tier Is go head to head, even if they're the same vehicle and equipped the same, if one has a 100% crew and some skills they're probably going to decimate the other if it has a piddly 50% or 75% crew. Giving new players such a massive statistical disadvantage is not good, so something does need to be done about it. Maybe there's a better way to go about it, I don't know. This is worth kicking around at least, I think. At least some of it."

 

You are still shifting blame to "big bad seal clubbers" with their evil equipment and crew skills. That only accounts for a tiny fraction of why noobs get their butts kicked at first. They vast majority of players in low tier battles are newer, less skilled players. They don't loose because "somebody on the other team is better"... they loose because they don't understand spotting mechanics, they have poor map awareness and are relatively unfamiliar with the tanks they are driving and the ones they are facing. 

 

Lack of experience leads to poor map positioning and poor strategy, i.e. going to the wrong place on a map in the wrong tank or joining a lemming rush and leaving a flank unguarded, etc. This is what causes blowouts.... not a faceless boogeyman on the other team with a 7 skill crew. No amount of freebies are going to make up for a "lack of experience" because it is not something that can be "gifted" to new players... it has to be earned.

 

My thoughts on crew training, skills and equipment?

 

Well... it shouldn't take a new player long to figure out that a 50% crew is a huge handicap and not make that mistake in the future. If they can't figure that out... then they don't need to be fast-tracking to higher tiers, if they can't afford a 75% crew... they don't need to be moving up to the next tier.  A 75% crew isn't ideal but it is workable... heck the last Tier III that I ground out recently (a Cruiser Mk.II) started with a 75% crew and I had them to 100% in less than 40 battles. That is not that bad. Additional crew skills are nice at low tiers but not that important... I have exactly 1 low tier tank with 6th sense and no tanks with an entire crew that 1 skill trained.... it isn't that big of a deal on not vital to playing well. 

 

And equipment? It is nice but a new player can get by with 1 set of binocs, a toolbox and a camo net. Those 3 pieces of equipment can be moved from tank to tank without penalty and will give a meaningful boost to any tank. If a new player can't afford those... they don't need to be moving up.

 

The only thing you are gonna get by turning Tiers 1 to 3 into a nursery is a bunch of players getting to Tier 4 with no clue about crew training or grinding tanks and modules, no idea how to spend credits and XP wisely, no idea how to adapt to tanking without crew skills or equipment and no real clue about facing vastly superior tanks or tankers. How are they gonna react when they start facing 100+mm guns or tanks with excellent VR and camo or teams that are largely made up of average to above average players?

 

You're not helping them one bit... you are just "kicking the can up the tiers" so to speak.



RunDownBlaster #16 Posted Jun 27 2019 - 09:33

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It's not so much the clubbers, even. In any game that isn't single player, you're going to have some players that are better than others.

 

The problem is the potential variance between vehicle performance. Let's pick one arbitrarily. T-26G FT. Chinese Tier II Tank Destroyer. 75% crew, top configuration, no equipment, concealment score of 360. Give it a 100% crew, Concealment, Arms, a Camo Net, and camouflage, and that suddenly shoots up to 928. Notably more than double. If you give a new player the tweaked out one and an experienced player the weak one, the deck is going to be stacked in favor of the new player because they have an vehicle that's quite objectively far superior to its twin. In that "If one has a 100% crew and some skills they're probably going to decimate the other if it has a piddly 50% or 75% crew", I didn't mean to imply that it was strictly old player with trained crew versus new player without. You give an old player a terrible crew and a vehicle that's only equipped with its modules, they're still gonna be in major trouble.

 

The crux of what I was saying is this. The difference between base performance and potential performance of Tier 1/2/3 vehicles is way, way too big, and that's the problem moreso than any clubbers. Reducing that gap by reducing the maximum is impossible without nerfing the vehicles in some way, so I feel going the other way and getting rid of that gap by raising the minimum to match the maximum would be preferable.

 

Plus, playing against superpowered vehicles should, ideally, teach you to be cautious. If you both have fully tweaked out Concealment, you're gonna learn that yours is way less effective, even if the vehicles are identical, if you just blow forward without a care in the world. The game also needs to force information, such as by having pop-up boxes that concisely elaborate on things in the garage (and by default don't appear more than once each), rather than leaving its internal teaching to non-mandatory courses. "Go watch videos about it" isn't an adequate teaching tool for multiplayer games. Works for Dwarf Fortress because your failure can only affect yourself, less so when you're working as part of a unit.



ChaseR392 #17 Posted Jun 27 2019 - 23:10

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View PostRunDownBlaster, on Jun 27 2019 - 09:33, said:

It's not so much the clubbers, even. In any game that isn't single player, you're going to have some players that are better than others.

 

Wait... what?

 

You've specifically mentioned seal clubbers or stat padders in nearly every response... but now that aren't that big a deal????

 

But lets look at the Tier II Chinese TD.... yes what you are saying is accurate (although the in game comparison tool gives slightly different numbers)…. but simply adding camo paint and a net bumps the concealment rating up to 615... with no crew skills. That is a sizeable jump for a small investment of credits for a net and either renting camo for credits or using one of the free "potato" camo skins WG gives away. The vast majority of the additional boost comes from training the camo skill... BIA has a minimal effect. Even a new player can get noticeable boost fairly easily over a "bone stock" tank. Also... crew skill doesn't effect camo rating... other than sub-100% crews can't start training the camo skill.

 

The crux of your argument, with respect, is still flawed. The difference base performance and potential performance doesn't vary much as you go up the tiers. I just used the comparison tool in the game and used the Tier 8 Rhm.B. W/T because its base concealment rating is close to the Chinese T-26... guess what.... base concealment is 355, with paint, net, camo skill and BIA it is nearly 900... a very similar spread. The same is true for things like guns... quite a few higher tier vehicles have absolutely worthless stock guns... some are so bad they are unplayable stock. If anything the lower tiers are easier in this respect.

 

This really boils down to whether or not you believe the lower tiers are absolutely overrun with seal clubbers and stat padders. I agree they exist but they are a small minority. Most players aren't going to spend much time and Tiers 1 and 2 so really the difference between base and potential performance is completely irrelevant... you'll grind enough XP to be to Tier 4 or 5 before you have a skill fully trained. Heck it only takes a handful of battles to get from Tier 1 to 2, and not that much more to get to 3. The number of players with multi-skill crews at low tiers is tiny.

 

 



SquishySupreme #18 Posted Jun 28 2019 - 05:55

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View PostChaseR392, on Jun 25 2019 - 17:02, said:

 

Unless it has changed in the last year... every new player gets a Tier 1 tank from every nation with a 100% crew.

 

IMO, talk of rampant "seal clubbing" at low tiers is just a convenient boogeyman used to explain away every loss and personal failure. Does it happen?


To be honest, it isn't actually seal clubbing but booster/equipment padding.

The player who spots first usually shoots first.  The newer player has to play catch-up.
The player who has 6th sense moves away only taking one shot, the new player simply gets pounded.
The player who has a 800+ camo rating will be driven right by at 100m ( happened to be yesterday ) while the new player is basically viewable to all.
The player who spams premium rounds will pen the new player every time while half of their shots bounce.

It's not really skill differences - because most people suck about the same at multiplayer games.  It's that new players face players with piles of credits, skills, and equipment.  So clubbing happens, because you don;t know it's a new player - you see a tank at 400m and you fire.



ChaseR392 #19 Posted Jun 28 2019 - 18:12

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View PostSquishySupreme, on Jun 28 2019 - 05:55, said:

It's that new players face players with piles of credits, skills, and equipment. 

 

So new, inexperienced or un-performing players should just get it all for free- cuz "fairness"???? 

 

"The player who has a 800+ camo rating will be driven right by at 100m ( happened to be yesterday ) while the new player is basically viewable to all."

 

Post the replay.



SquishySupreme #20 Posted Jun 29 2019 - 06:12

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Yes, yes they should.  This is about adding players to the game.  Time and time again, the new players that come in don't care about some unicom's status or complaints, and just want to play the game.  And quickly loathe the experience because of the insane grind and brutal smack-down that they receive.  The player retention in WoT is among the lowest in the entire gaming industry.  No a problem, not poor, but absolutely shockingly dumpster fire bad.

As for the second part, yes, I was in a T8 WT with 3 skills and 100% camo in the open on a hill and the new player simply drove right past me at 100m.  6th sense never triggered.  *I* saw him 400m away slowly coming towards me and waited for him to pass because I needed to concentrate on better targets.   He disappeared behind the hill and 15 seconds later lit up and immediately got shot by 4 people within 1-2 seconds.  He hit none of them in return.

Basically driving blind and steamrolled by people with better gear and crew.  I doubt if he will stay around for another week if this is his experience.

Edited by SquishySupreme, Jun 29 2019 - 06:12.





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