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Suggestion to Improve Arty

Arty Stun rework fix arty

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_Silent #1 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 05:56

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My suggestion to improve arty requires several changes to the game to start out with so I'll go through the changes required and add a TLDR at the bottom.

 

1. Increased Map Size

 

Right now the average map size for tier 10 tanks is 1km and to me that feels just too small especially for MBTs.  What I would suggest are much larger standard maps with similar sized games, nothing like the grand battles or frontline because these are just the ranges the tier.

 

Tier 1 to Tier 4

 

For the lower tiers map sizes of 800m2 to 1000m2 and the reason for this is because there are currently Tier 1 to Tier 4 maps that are these sizes and nothing would need to be changed since it wouldnt affect game play.

 

Tier 5 to Tier 7

 

For middle tiers, maps of 1.5km2 to 2km2 would be more appropriate since the guns are more accurate have higher pen that can carry over distance, are faster, have significantly better view range and would be able to easliy cross the map in enough time to win.

 

Tier 8 to Tier 10

 

For lower tiers, maps of 2km2 to 3.5km2 would be most appropriate. These are the tiers where MBTs start appearing and really should not be confined to 1000m2 maps.  The reason I am focusing on MBTs and not saying mediums is because heavy tanks died out for a reason and this game should reflect that.  When HEAT and HEAT-FS rounds started being developed armour became null since HEAT could melt through even the heaviest tanks and then with the introduction of APDS, APFS, and APFSDS rounds like the DM13 and DM23 rounds currently on the Leopard 1 which should have 303mm and 337mm of penetration respectively with the DM23 having just over 300mm of penetration at 2000m which can still penetrate weak points at 2km.  These distances of maps would also allow tanks to play theri role in a better manner.

  • The rounds in the game have high penetration at even 2000m
  • Tanks are fast enough to traverse 3.5km quickly
  • MBTs would play a better role

 

These are just part of the change for arty and would allow for more than a three lane map or a campfest.

 

2. Revised Values and Metas

 

Revised Values

 

  • Accuracy
  • Vision
  • Penetration
  • Signal Range
  • Engagement ranges

 

With larger maps being 2km to 3.5km across there would need to be a greater change in certain values.  Accuracy would reflect what the guns were actually able to do. No more of this 0.34 accuracy at 100m because if you were able to shoot to 1km or 1.5km then your dispersion would be 5.1 metres and with how shots randomize in the circle you wouldn't hit often which could not be further from the truth of these guns which can accurately fire to 4000m in the case of the L7.  The accuracy of the MBT guns would reflect this and would reduce to 0.1 or even 0.085 which at a range of 1.5km would reduce the dispersion by 4.25 times.

 

Vision of MBTs is also obviously a lot better than the cap of 425m so with larger maps the view range would have to increase significantly maybe to the point of no hard cap extending to 600m even maybe higher when in reality opics of the era could see 2 to 4 km on a clear day. and on bigger maps the vehicles would not be able to see completely across the map like some currently in game.

 

Penetration would also have to increase to potentially real values of rounds.  If the ranges increase then rounds starting at 250mm and dropping to 200mm at 1.5km would not be effective enough for the larger map sizes.So penetration of the example Leopard 1 DM13 and DM23 rounds being 303mm and 337mm respectively would allow penetration at the greater distances and if needed the DM12 round with 400mm HEAT penetration could be added.

 

Signal range would have to increase proportionally to the map

 

Engagement range would lastly have to change. For more open maps the engagement range for MBTs is 350-500m but with larger vision radius and render range and higher pen the average engagement range could be pushed out to 600-700m which is close to what would be more common for tanks of this era even going up to 1km engagement range allowing for more dynamic play and maneuver warfare rather than attrition of heavies.

 

Metas would also change with light tanks getting view range close to 1km they would be real scouts and their accuracy would not change so they could defend themselves if needed but are more scouts than bad mediums. Tank destroyers would act as direct fire support and MBTs would be the main meta and combat force.

 

3. MBT Meta

 

Further to the point of roles. TDs would work closer in tandem with Lights and act solely as direct fire support ie. when MBTs push a flank they would respond and hold them off until other MBTs could respond with a counter push. Lights would just be the eyes/early warning. But for the main point MBTs would take the spot light. having the firepower vision and mobility/armour to defend themselves and still deal crippling blows.  This game would need to revolve around MBTs since in the real world MBTs took over since the old system of thicker plates of RHA made a tank better are no longer relevant.  MBTs would engage from 600m to 1km and use maneuver warfare and positioning to gain the advantage instead of waiting for the heavies to slug it out.  Right now a good MT player can sway the battle becuase thats how it should be.  All that would happen is the maps would cater to that.

 

4. Arty Change

 

Finally the change to arty.  All of the previous changes are required for this change because my suggestion is the complete removal from the tech tree and game as they are now.  Instead a new mechanic would be added as well as a new class of vehicles.  Artillery could stay as direct fire Derp guns as TDs but would have to be reworked.

 

The new class of vehicles would be forward control vehicles aka Artillery control vehicles, forward observation vehicles, command and control vehicles.  The new mechanic they would add would be calling in artillery strikes from off map and deciding when to deploy artillery before the battle.

 

First an example tech tree for USSR

  • Tier 2: D-8/D-12
  • Tier 3: BA Sh-64B
  • Tier 4: BTR-152B
  • Tier 5: BRDM-1
  • Tier 6: BRDM-2
  • Tier 7: BTR-50P
  • Tier 8: BTR-60 (1V18)
  • Tier 9: BTR-70 KShM
  • Tier 10: BTR-80 (1V152)

 

The upgrades for these vehicles would be primarily focus on radios but the size of artillery that could be called in.  For example the D-8/D-12 would first be able to call in 5cm mortars and upgrade to 6cm and eventually 8.1cm mortars. While the BTR-80 (1V152) would be able to call in 152mm and 203mm artillery. They would also be able to upgrade the size of the battery from 2-3 to 4-5 and the amount of rounds fire up to 5 rounds fire for effect(FFE) and how tight the radius of fire is maybe to a minimum of 20m.  They would not have reasonable means to defend themselves since they are like artillery and are support class, the would rely on speed and concealment over anything else.

 

How the mechanic would work.At the beginning of battle the player would choose where outside the map the artillery would look in. For example if you are on the right side of map the corners of your side would have lines at 45 degrees and 135 degrees and you could place the artillery in there to determine which direction the rounds come from. During the battle you would be able to ask them to move but it would leave you without fire support for 1-2 minutes based on the move time. Now these vehicles would have a different map which could grow to centre and the size of the screen.  Their map would break into 50m2 grids.  But unless they had direct line of sight to the target all they would see on the map for a spotted enemy is a red square and not the exact location of the enemy ( to replicate giving a 3 figure grid reference for a all arms call for fire as if relayed through these vehicles(yes i know 3 figures is 100m)) if they had direct line of sign they would see the map normally but to fire they would select the red square and click fire which would launch a 1 rounds fire for effect fire mission.  Once landed they could adjust the position using arrow keys to move it up to 50 m of impact to move closer to target( line of sight can do themselves non line of sight would require teamwork but an indicator would show on the map where the 5 or 4 rounds hit. Then if ready they would call a 3 round fire for effect fire mission which would land 15 rounds max. For example if its a 5 gun battery then 5 rounds would land and then 6 to 10 seconds later depending on reload 5 more would land and then again another 5.  The damage would not be large but the affect radius would be 30m for large damage and 50m light damage without stun.  The vehicle would be able to call in a 3 rounds FFE mission once every 45 seconds and a 1 round FFE every 15 seconds or something balanced.  With this it would add new vehicles, a new mechanic, artillery would not rain as if 30 guns fired like current arty strikes and would give you 10 seconds to move between start of 3 round FFE to the end.  Make damage per round would be maybe 200 for pen and 130 for near miss (<2m) it would land in a random circle of a 30m radius which you could tighten to smaller after 1 round FFE.  I think this solves the problem of the arty strike, the problem of arty, and require skill to do well in.

 

Edit: TLDR

 

NEW vehicle to call in arty by clicking map then moving it around, bigger maps, more accuracy and MBT based instead of heavies.


Edited by _Silent, Jul 01 2019 - 05:57.


cKy_ #2 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 06:06

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Sounds like unnecessary complications to me 

Feargrim27 #3 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 06:34

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View PostcKy_, on Jul 01 2019 - 00:06, said:

Sounds like unnecessary complications to me


 

If a legit viable option to make arty not-broken exists, it would need to be extremely thorough and complicated.


 

This OP, is probably one of the better if not the best change-ideas I've read in a while.



PatoThe #4 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 06:38

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improve arty? please remove them

cKy_ #5 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 06:43

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View PostFeargrim27, on Jul 01 2019 - 17:34, said:


 

If a legit viable option to make arty not-broken exists, it would need to be extremely thorough and complicated.


 

This OP, is probably one of the better if not the best change-ideas I've read in a while.

 

The problem is, a legit, viable option to make arty not-broken doesn't exist. We know this, WarGaming knows this.



Omega_Weapon #6 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 09:19

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So OP's suggestion to improve this game is to basically tear it down and make a very different game in its place. That probably ain't gonna fly. I actually like the current version fine (for the most part) and so do a great many others.

jst2gr8 #7 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 12:15

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There is no way I am going to read that whole arty thread, I did see that you want to make the maps bigger. Please explain how this would help? Most arty as it is can't shoot from one corner of the map the another. So making the map larger would give the same results it is just arty may have to move up to counter arty. 

_Silent #8 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 12:32

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View PostPatoThe, on Jul 01 2019 - 05:38, said:

improve arty? please remove them

if you read the tldr arty would be removed completely as a class

View PostUvBeenTrumped, on Jul 01 2019 - 11:15, said:

There is no way I am going to read that whole arty thread, I did see that you want to make the maps bigger. Please explain how this would help? Most arty as it is can't shoot from one corner of the map the another. So making the map larger would give the same results it is just arty may have to move up to counter arty. 

arty would be removed as a class. If you want easy and quick read read the last two paragraphs



Vava_das_SPGs #9 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 12:33

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For the TL DReaders:
He's suggesting to introduce MBTs and change the Light Tanks roles to direct control the artillery strikes (maybe similar to the "artillery strike" of Frontline _).

jst2gr8 #10 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 13:48

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 01 2019 - 04:32, said:

if you read the tldr arty would be removed completely as a class

arty would be removed as a class. If you want easy and quick read read the last two paragraphs

Why would WG remove a class of tank totally? It has been in the game since day one and is going nowhere!!!! These whiny threads have been going on for just as long and that horse is still dead. 

Get over it already!!!



_Silent #11 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 14:34

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View PostUvBeenTrumped, on Jul 01 2019 - 12:48, said:

Why would WG remove a class of tank totally? It has been in the game since day one and is going nowhere!!!! These whiny threads have been going on for just as long and that horse is still dead. 

Get over it already!!!

Again if you read it you would understand it’s removing the class as it is and replacing it not necessarily removing the tanks



SquishySupreme #12 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 17:17

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UGH. My eyes hurt and I'm a programmer. 

The way to solve the entire issue is simple.  Reduce Arty ranges to force them to move and engage, and double their mobility.  The FV-304 (Bert) is a prime example.  With a slightly over 400m effective range due to how aiming gets odd at the extreme end of its ranges, it has to move and re-position constantly and is often 100-200m behind the advancing lines.  

SawUcomin #13 Posted Jul 01 2019 - 18:34

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Do us all a favor and stay true to your name!

n4cer67 #14 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 00:42

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Best way to improve arty is for WG to ignore these articles and stop nerfing Arty. This suggestion is nothing but an arty nerf.

Edited by n4cer67, Jul 02 2019 - 00:53.


n4cer67 #15 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 00:43

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View PostSquishySupreme, on Jul 01 2019 - 10:17, said:

UGH. My eyes hurt and I'm a programmer. 

The way to solve the entire issue is simple.  Reduce Arty ranges to force them to move and engage, and double their mobility.  The FV-304 (Bert) is a prime example.  With a slightly over 400m effective range due to how aiming gets odd at the extreme end of its ranges, it has to move and re-position constantly and is often 100-200m behind the advancing lines.  

Arty doesn't need their ranges reduced. They're supposed to be long range support except for the Bishop and FV304 which are more frontline support.



n4cer67 #16 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 00:46

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View PostFeargrim27, on Jun 30 2019 - 23:34, said:


 

If a legit viable option to make arty not-broken exists, it would need to be extremely thorough and complicated.


 

This OP, is probably one of the better if not the best change-ideas I've read in a while.

Arty is only broken because of nerfs and crap similar to what op is proposing.



n4cer67 #17 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 00:50

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View PostPatoThe, on Jun 30 2019 - 23:38, said:

improve arty? please remove them

Would be better to remove the nerfers.



_Silent #18 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 04:06

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The chief complaints I have heard are that artillery is god with a laser beam. It’s too accurate, stun is garbage, you can’t counter it without other arty, or by rushing cap, it’s too powerful. The changes I suggested would change all of these and require artillery to actually require a lot more skill to do well. Arty in it’s original form you could have red bits having amazing games just because a couple AP rounds hit dead on. Now at least to do well you need some skill but the complaints above still remain. With my suggestion it would remove the stun mechanic which does its job well but the average player won’t use it the way it was proposed in the sandbox. As a tool to cripple a flank so that it’s easier to overwhelm because they aren’t as good now so because it’s not used properly, the way it was intended it should be removed because all it does is cause anger when stunned constantly with no enemies shooting you just a light on a mission. As for the hand of god this change would require the player to adjust the artillery themselves when they have line of sight meaning they can be countered. Or if they don’t have line of sight then they wouldn’t get the exact position and would require teamwork to use. Yes this probably won’t work correctly because of reasons above with the stun. That’s why you could zoom in on the map. See the terrain, judge likely spots and adjust until good effect. This version of arty would not be too accurate since the radius of rounds would be 30-50m with splashes of no more than 15-20m. And now the whole nerf point. “But nerfs are for people who can’t play it” the problem with artillery now is that anyone can do well randomly more often than in other classes. Someone with an average damage of 100 per game in tier 10 mt will occasionally have a better game but are unlikely to have Unicum games. But I’m arty they are more likely to have better games because of sheer luck. Arty does require skill to do amazing but it has a low skill cap which is the problem which means it’s overpowered. I would argue to determine if something is overpowered you look at the left right shift of results. If left is red wn8 and right is unicum, if all players red to purple are scoring on the right hand side it’s OP and if they are scoring on the left it’s underpowered. So to the nerf portion. Let’s say tier 10 arty hits you for 600 near miss. This new arty would fire up to 15 rounds in 20 seconds doing 200 for direct hit and 30-150 for near hits. It would be spaced out so you could escape but if you don’t it would destroy tanks in a flank and have real effect and require you to move because you have time too. Let’s say they are lucky. Max damage is 3000hp for a tier 10 strike. And minimum is 450. That’s still significantly more than the 600 per 1 min shot of tier 10 are and even the minimum is close. This is very clearly not a nerf but a complete remake. 

Omega_Weapon #19 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 04:41

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 01 2019 - 22:06, said:

The chief complaints I have heard are that artillery is god with a laser beam. It’s too accurate, stun is garbage, you can’t counter it without other arty, or by rushing cap, it’s too powerful. The changes I suggested would change all of these and require artillery to actually require a lot more skill to do well. Arty in it’s original form you could have red bits having amazing games just because a couple AP rounds hit dead on. Now at least to do well you need some skill but the complaints above still remain.

 

Do you have any examples of tomato players who are clearly bad at regular tank classes, but are statistically good players in arty? I'm talking overall stats, not just the odd game here and there. I don't believe its as easy to play well in arty as you make it out to be.



cKy_ #20 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 04:51

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 02 2019 - 15:41, said:

 

Do you have any examples of tomato players who are clearly bad at regular tank classes, but are statistically good players in arty? I'm talking overall stats, not just the odd game here and there. I don't believe its as easy to play well in arty as you make it out to be.

 

WhineMaker. He's terrible in regular tanks (probably why he doesn't play them) but quite good in arty.







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