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Suggestion to Improve Arty

Arty Stun rework fix arty

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Omega_Weapon #21 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 05:08

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View PostcKy_, on Jul 01 2019 - 22:51, said:

WhineMaker. He's terrible in regular tanks (probably why he doesn't play them) but quite good in arty.


It looks like he does a bit better in arty than he does in regular tanks, but the differences aren't that big and his highest individual win rates are still on regular tanks rather than SPGs. As much as the man loves his arty, WhineMaker is a good example that playing arty is not simply an easy mode to win games and boost ones stats. He'll probably love having his stats talked about too. Just making neutral observations here. No offense intended.



cKy_ #22 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 05:33

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 02 2019 - 16:08, said:


It looks like he does a bit better in arty than he does in regular tanks, but the differences aren't that big and his highest individual win rates are still on regular tanks rather than SPGs. As much as the man loves his arty, WhineMaker is a good example that playing arty is not simply an easy mode to win games and boost ones stats. He'll probably love having his stats talked about too. Just making neutral observations here. No offense intended.

 

I don't think anyone's saying it's easy to win with arty... Because it is definitely the most difficult to win/carry with, since it is largely team and RNG dependent. 

 

I mean he is a perfect example of how artillery generally becomes less and less effective as you move up the tiers. Look at his M44, 56% winrate and 1k average damage. Compare that to his M53/M55, which is generally regarded as a very powerful tier 9 artillery. 52% winrate and 1700 average damage. 1000 average damage at tier 6 is quite impressive, whereas 1700 average damage at tier 9 is not, and is more indicative of what a tier 8 medium or heavy tank should be doing. But despite the 1700 being quite poor for a tier 9 tank, I can assure you that it is not poor for a tier 9 artillery. (it is as this point that I would like to mention that I do not have access to stun stats)

 

I know that wasn't the point you were making (lower tier arty is more powerful than higher tier arty), but go back to his M53/M55. Or any of his tier 9 arty for that matter. You can see that he does a lot better in his tier 9 arty than he does in any of his regular tier 9 vehicles. 

 



SquishySupreme #23 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 12:47

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View Postn4cer67, on Jul 02 2019 - 00:43, said:

Arty doesn't need their ranges reduced. They're supposed to be long range support except for the Bishop and FV304 which are more frontline support.



If you reduce ranges but double speed and give then an AP option so they can act like a TD (high damage, nothing at all on a miss) and protect themselves, it would fix it.
No, it's not realistic, but most arty players would trade this for what they currently have.  And this forces them to stop camping in the back and take chances, similar to a TD.



n4cer67 #24 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 14:43

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View PostSquishySupreme, on Jul 02 2019 - 05:47, said:



If you reduce ranges but double speed and give then an AP option so they can act like a TD (high damage, nothing at all on a miss) and protect themselves, it would fix it.
No, it's not realistic, but most arty players would trade this for what they currently have.  And this forces them to stop camping in the back and take chances, similar to a TD.


That would not fix it but wreck it. Each class has their role to play for the team. Arty's are supposed to support from the back just like TD's are supposed to hide and snipe. I don't know of any sane arty player that would support such a ludicrous idea.



n4cer67 #25 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 14:47

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 01 2019 - 21:06, said:

The chief complaints I have heard are that artillery is god with a laser beam. It’s too accurate, stun is garbage, you can’t counter it without other arty, or by rushing cap, it’s too powerful. The changes I suggested would change all of these and require artillery to actually require a lot more skill to do well. Arty in it’s original form you could have red bits having amazing games just because a couple AP rounds hit dead on. Now at least to do well you need some skill but the complaints above still remain. With my suggestion it would remove the stun mechanic which does its job well but the average player won’t use it the way it was proposed in the sandbox. As a tool to cripple a flank so that it’s easier to overwhelm because they aren’t as good now so because it’s not used properly, the way it was intended it should be removed because all it does is cause anger when stunned constantly with no enemies shooting you just a light on a mission. As for the hand of god this change would require the player to adjust the artillery themselves when they have line of sight meaning they can be countered. Or if they don’t have line of sight then they wouldn’t get the exact position and would require teamwork to use. Yes this probably won’t work correctly because of reasons above with the stun. That’s why you could zoom in on the map. See the terrain, judge likely spots and adjust until good effect. This version of arty would not be too accurate since the radius of rounds would be 30-50m with splashes of no more than 15-20m. And now the whole nerf point. “But nerfs are for people who can’t play it” the problem with artillery now is that anyone can do well randomly more often than in other classes. Someone with an average damage of 100 per game in tier 10 mt will occasionally have a better game but are unlikely to have Unicum games. But I’m arty they are more likely to have better games because of sheer luck. Arty does require skill to do amazing but it has a low skill cap which is the problem which means it’s overpowered. I would argue to determine if something is overpowered you look at the left right shift of results. If left is red wn8 and right is unicum, if all players red to purple are scoring on the right hand side it’s OP and if they are scoring on the left it’s underpowered. So to the nerf portion. Let’s say tier 10 arty hits you for 600 near miss. This new arty would fire up to 15 rounds in 20 seconds doing 200 for direct hit and 30-150 for near hits. It would be spaced out so you could escape but if you don’t it would destroy tanks in a flank and have real effect and require you to move because you have time too. Let’s say they are lucky. Max damage is 3000hp for a tier 10 strike. And minimum is 450. That’s still significantly more than the 600 per 1 min shot of tier 10 are and even the minimum is close. This is very clearly not a nerf but a complete remake. 


What a bunch of bogus nonsense. Arty is nothing like what the nerfers make it out to be and already takes skill.



dunniteowl #26 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 18:05

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I cannot say if I think this list of suggestions by the OP would serve to "improve" arty on the whole.

 

I had to come back and re-read this topic.  My first read through made my head swim, though that might have been me at that time.  

 

On my 2nd read through, my initial reaction was, "How does this 'improve' arty?"  I'm still not sure.

 

 

This is fairly well thought out, overall, though I think some important parameters are missing in this mix.  Additionally, the level, scope and scale of the changes suggested are not just changes to arty.  They effectively, from what I am seeing, would make this World of Tanks 2.0; or if not that, certainly WoT 1.7.5 at least.  These are MAJOR revisions to base mechanics and physics as far as the game engine and -- as importantly -- the player population are concerned and thus are no easy or simple task to be done in a single update.

 

 

I DO believe, however, that LARGER MAPS and Tiered Map Sizing (a suggestion I have made several times in those kinds of threads, which, oddly, this happens to also be) is a Step in the Right Direction as far as what might present an overall improvement in game play and challenge overall.

 

If WG made no other revisions, changes or additions to the game beyond, in one update a change to the map sizings and potential spawning/size/borders/caps/etc. with a set of presets for different types of matches that would allow a wider variety of 'maps-within-maps' (I will explain in greater detail if requested) such that one Very Large Map might be used in Grand Battles, say (like Ghost Town used to be and that Dark Matter Hallowe'en event map is) and could then be used as a 'base' for maybe three or four smaller and playable maps that are 'zoned' and 'scaled' so that tier appropriate play in terms of size, range, speeds and terrain are met.

 

That alone would be a BIG BIG Change, though one, I think, that if WG could pull it off, would be worth it on the whole.

 

I think a new sort of Map Philosophy at the core level is what's necessary, which is -- again -- a major change and not something to be taken lightly.  Of any other changes I could see WG taking on that might be considered Primary, Core or Major Revisions, the only other at this point in time would be physics modeling to include more destructible (and possibly HP deterioration damage models) so that pretty much anything that a tank could destroy -- they could.  I would also include in those changes, however, the potential to destroy your tank by slamming into a two story or higher building's wall and having the whole thing collapse in upon you.

 

Yes, it should be fun and it should also be complex (and it is already to both, imo) and these ideas are at least an attempt to present design changes that, whether it improves arty or not on the whole, look towards improvement and not just a simple 'quick' fix that are the most prevalent ones presented.  

 

Hat's off to OP for that alone.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Jul 02 2019 - 18:09.


Omega_Weapon #27 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 21:01

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View PostcKy_, on Jul 01 2019 - 23:33, said:

I know that wasn't the point you were making (lower tier arty is more powerful than higher tier arty), but go back to his M53/M55. Or any of his tier 9 arty for that matter. You can see that he does a lot better in his tier 9 arty than he does in any of his regular tier 9 vehicles. 


I see what you are referencing in tier 9. Still, he has over 3300 battles in M53/M55, while all other tier 9 tanks are less than 500 battles. The comparative amount of practice he has had in that one arty will probably skew the numbers a bit.



UvBeenTrumped #28 Posted Jul 02 2019 - 21:14

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Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!

Ho, ho, hey, hey, arty's in the game and here to stay!



_Silent #29 Posted Jul 03 2019 - 02:48

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 02 2019 - 03:41, said:

 

Do you have any examples of tomato players who are clearly bad at regular tank classes, but are statistically good players in arty? I'm talking overall stats, not just the odd game here and there. I don't believe its as easy to play well in arty as you make it out to be.


many. Look at some mid tier and lower tier clans. The arty players can sometimes be bad players but great at arty



Omega_Weapon #30 Posted Jul 03 2019 - 04:11

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 02 2019 - 20:48, said:

many. Look at some mid tier and lower tier clans. The arty players can sometimes be bad players but great at arty


General statements like that are too vague and hard to verify. Could you provide the names of some of these individuals so the evidence can be confirmed or refuted?



LtKelly #31 Posted Jul 04 2019 - 00:43

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Yes, Yes, Yes, Please improve/fix arty. Increase its base hit points, shorten reload times, increase damage per round and make them faster and a little more agile. This is a good start.

Omega_Weapon #32 Posted Jul 04 2019 - 04:02

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View PostLtKelly, on Jul 03 2019 - 18:43, said:

Yes, Yes, Yes, Please improve/fix arty. Increase its base hit points, shorten reload times, increase damage per round and make them faster and a little more agile. This is a good start.


I'd be happy with the pre-nerf view ranges, plus normal pen HE shells and less horrific aim times when fighting in TD mode. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #33 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 03:34

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 01 2019 - 11:56, said:

/snip

 

Larger maps would be great, but the whole reason we have Grand Battles as an OPTION and not mandatory(same with FrontLine) is that MANY players do not have the computer to run such large maps.

THINK, with your brain.....why do we already have such a long countdown period??  I often get in 3 seconds before the countdown starts as I have a gaming rig.  Most people don't.  That's why we have a very long imo 30 sec countdown, it's needed, and we still have people loading in late.

 

Larger maps would be nice, but we'd be cutting out players and that's def not a good idea.  Making SPGs less effective is just all around stupid.  Give them the damage and pen back. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #34 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 05:29

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View PostcKy_, on Jul 02 2019 - 11:33, said:

View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 02 2019 - 16:08, said:


It looks like he does a bit better in arty than he does in regular tanks, but the differences aren't that big and his highest individual win rates are still on regular tanks rather than SPGs. As much as the man loves his arty, WhineMaker is a good example that playing arty is not simply an easy mode to win games and boost ones stats. He'll probably love having his stats talked about too. Just making neutral observations here. No offense intended.

 

I mean he is a perfect example of how artillery generally becomes less and less effective as you move up the tiers. Look at his M44, 56% winrate and 1k average damage.

 

 

Just shows that top tier arty has been nerfed too much and that the M44 as everyone's stats show is in clear NEED of a nerf and why so many want it nerfed.  Heck, I complete the T-55a SPG 15 in it....VERY OP for it's tier.  Clearly Over-Performing.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #35 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 05:32

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 02 2019 - 10:06, said:

The chief complaints I have heard are that artillery is god with a laser beam. It’s too accurate, stun is garbage, you can’t counter it without other arty, or by rushing cap, it’s too powerful. The changes I suggested would change all of these and require artillery to actually require a lot more skill to do well. Arty in it’s original form you could have red bits having amazing games just because a couple AP rounds hit dead on. Now at least to do well you need some skill but the complaints above still remain. With my suggestion it would remove the stun mechanic which does its job well but the average player won’t use it the way it was proposed in the sandbox. As a tool to cripple a flank so that it’s easier to overwhelm because they aren’t as good now so because it’s not used properly, the way it was intended it should be removed because all it does is cause anger when stunned constantly with no enemies shooting you just a light on a mission. As for the hand of god this change would require the player to adjust the artillery themselves when they have line of sight meaning they can be countered. Or if they don’t have line of sight then they wouldn’t get the exact position and would require teamwork to use. Yes this probably won’t work correctly because of reasons above with the stun. That’s why you could zoom in on the map. See the terrain, judge likely spots and adjust until good effect. This version of arty would not be too accurate since the radius of rounds would be 30-50m with splashes of no more than 15-20m. And now the whole nerf point. “But nerfs are for people who can’t play it” the problem with artillery now is that anyone can do well randomly more often than in other classes. Someone with an average damage of 100 per game in tier 10 mt will occasionally have a better game but are unlikely to have Unicum games. But I’m arty they are more likely to have better games because of sheer luck. Arty does require skill to do amazing but it has a low skill cap which is the problem which means it’s overpowered. I would argue to determine if something is overpowered you look at the left right shift of results. If left is red wn8 and right is unicum, if all players red to purple are scoring on the right hand side it’s OP and if they are scoring on the left it’s underpowered. So to the nerf portion. Let’s say tier 10 arty hits you for 600 near miss. This new arty would fire up to 15 rounds in 20 seconds doing 200 for direct hit and 30-150 for near hits. It would be spaced out so you could escape but if you don’t it would destroy tanks in a flank and have real effect and require you to move because you have time too. Let’s say they are lucky. Max damage is 3000hp for a tier 10 strike. And minimum is 450. That’s still significantly more than the 600 per 1 min shot of tier 10 are and even the minimum is close. This is very clearly not a nerf but a complete remake. 

 

35 THOUSAND battles and you haven't figured out how to play around and with arty???   Sounds like a blatant refusal to learn to play the game as designed and intended.



cKy_ #36 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 05:33

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Jul 05 2019 - 16:29, said:

 

Just shows that top tier arty has been nerfed too much and that the M44 as everyone's stats show is in clear NEED of a nerf and why so many want it nerfed.  Heck, I complete the T-55a SPG 15 in it....VERY OP for it's tier.  Clearly Over-Performing.

 

Good job pointing out the obvious buddy.



_Silent #37 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 15:56

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Jul 05 2019 - 04:32, said:

 

35 THOUSAND battles and you haven't figured out how to play around and with arty???   Sounds like a blatant refusal to learn to play the game as designed and intended.

Or ignorance on your part. If you checked I have the Object 260 which means I was able to do the “hardest artillery missions” and I also have every T-55A mission done with honours which includes artillery. Those aren’t my complaints. Those are the most common I’ve seen on the forum. Sure artillery doesn’t fit my play style I prefer fast heavies or mediums but that doesn’t mean I can’t play arty. Also you saying that I obviously don’t know how to play arty isn’t proving me wrong and it seems that you can’t defend your positions relying on “you are just bad” which is a weak stance. Also this game doesn’t revolve around one person if a majority doesn’t like something then it should be changed to make it better but also what the majority wants. Saying I don’t know how to play arty isn’t make your point stronger. Explain why it’s good now because I’ve explained why people think it isn’t. 



EmperorJuliusCaesar #38 Posted Jul 07 2019 - 09:45

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View Post_Silent, on Jul 06 2019 - 21:56, said:

Or ignorance on your part. If you checked I have the Object 260 which means I was able to do the “hardest artillery missions” and I also have every T-55A mission done with honours which includes artillery. Those aren’t my complaints. Those are the most common I’ve seen on the forum. Sure artillery doesn’t fit my play style I prefer fast heavies or mediums but that doesn’t mean I can’t play arty. Also you saying that I obviously don’t know how to play arty isn’t proving me wrong and it seems that you can’t defend your positions relying on “you are just bad” which is a weak stance. Also this game doesn’t revolve around one person if a majority doesn’t like something then it should be changed to make it better but also what the majority wants. Saying I don’t know how to play arty isn’t make your point stronger. Explain why it’s good now because I’ve explained why people think it isn’t. 

 

Yeah, because arty missions are "so hard" I completed one for the T-55a in a tier 6!!!!!!....tier 6 arty.....lol.

 

Yeah, arty is boring, but I too play it when I must, but I'm disgusted at how much WG has nerfed them.  Maybe you misunderstood me, please, PLEASE play more arty, it's GREATLY NEEDED with the stupid MM that WG has given us.  No limit on TDs....but a limit on SPGs.  

 

Of course this game isn't limited to one person, which is exactly why they need to balance teams via skill........the thing that matters MOST in this game. 

 

Dude, I have every arty in this game(5% of my total games), if you think I'm against it, you're wrong, in fact I'm for more arty, more arty trees and PLEASE prem arty ASAP.....as they can't be nerfed to [edited].  Again, PLEASE play your arty(with prem rounds).

 

 

Edit:  Oh, and congrats on your 260.....will be awhile before I got mine as I've just gotten 2 and will soon get a 3rd reward tank so it's not top priority.....but again, congrats, it seems to be a GREAT tank :-)

And please keep playing high tier arty.......and don't be afraid to shoot prem rounds if you're on a mission.


Edited by EmperorJuliusCaesar, Jul 07 2019 - 10:35.


_Silent #39 Posted Jul 07 2019 - 12:33

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View PostEmperorJuliusCaesar, on Jul 07 2019 - 08:45, said:

 

Yeah, because arty missions are "so hard" I completed one for the T-55a in a tier 6!!!!!!....tier 6 arty.....lol.

 

Yeah, arty is boring, but I too play it when I must, but I'm disgusted at how much WG has nerfed them.  Maybe you misunderstood me, please, PLEASE play more arty, it's GREATLY NEEDED with the stupid MM that WG has given us.  No limit on TDs....but a limit on SPGs.  

 

Of course this game isn't limited to one person, which is exactly why they need to balance teams via skill........the thing that matters MOST in this game. 

 

Dude, I have every arty in this game(5% of my total games), if you think I'm against it, you're wrong, in fact I'm for more arty, more arty trees and PLEASE prem arty ASAP.....as they can't be nerfed to [edited].  Again, PLEASE play your arty(with prem rounds).

 

 

Edit:  Oh, and congrats on your 260.....will be awhile before I got mine as I've just gotten 2 and will soon get a 3rd reward tank so it's not top priority.....but again, congrats, it seems to be a GREAT tank :-)

And please keep playing high tier arty.......and don't be afraid to shoot prem rounds if you're on a mission.


I agree about the no limit on TDs being something that should be changed and that’s why I also suggest MBT meta over traditional heavy or TD meta and artillery wouldn’t be removed and would be buffed. The only difference is it would represent a all arms call for fire better because all of my suggested changes are to make it more like real life. 



Rezawk001 #40 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 00:41

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TDs are direct fire arty .. I have taken out tanks at 1000 meters .. I do the same with arty .. but 

TDs get the best camo . 4% for every crew member at 100% in skill ..

4% for camo and a whopping 15% for the net 

most TDs have at least 50%

 

Arty get 2% for each crew member  and 2% for camo .. 5% for a net 

arty gets to 20% plus if they are lucky 

we have no armor .. are slow mostly .. and we sit waiting to be killed 

we are usually the last to die .. but we are blind without you guys 

and next time your hunting 

hold your rifle with rubber bands at arm's length 

and hit the target without using your sights 

that is arty fun at less than 200 meters 

and we get one shot .. reload is usually more than ten seconds







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