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[ S T ] M48A2 Raumpanzer Joins the Test as well.

KRZY ST Super test M48a2 new tank

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KRZYBooP #1 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 17:32

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Howdy Boom Jockeys!

 

Stage 2 - 12:30 (UTC)
 

M48A2 Räumpanzer

 

A new German medium tank, M48A2 Räumpanzer, is ready for the proving grounds of the Supertest.

A variant of the American Patton, this German boasts excellent frontal armor for a medium (up to 254 mm in the turret and 152 mm in the hull). In addition, its most noticeable feature, the shovel in front of the lower glacis plate, is in fact a screen which further improves the armor of this vehicle. Another of its strengths is survivability, all thanks to its 1450 HP. But for such great armor and HP, a price must be paid; this price is in its mobility. This German medium has a max speed of 40 km/h and a power-to-weight ratio of 13 hp per ton. On top of this, the tank has a traverse speed of 35 deg/s and a turret traverse speed of 30 deg/s.

Now let’s get down to the gun. This 90-mm armament boasts good penetration: 205 mm for a standard shell and 255 for an APCR. You’ll be able to get off 6.9 shots per minute dealing 240 damage per shot. The weapon stabilization is pretty decent, the aiming time is just 2 seconds and has a dispersion of 0.44 m at 100 m. What else are we forgetting? Oh yes, its gun depression is -9 degrees.

The M48A2 Räumpanzer behaves like a hybrid of a medium and a heavy on the battlefield. If necessary, this medium can survive a blow that would put another ally vehicle out of action. Plus, its gun allows for dealing regular damage (instead of high one-shot damage) and can be used to immobilize enemies, turning them into sitting Credit and XP piñatas.

 

Spoiler

 



Omega_Weapon #2 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 19:59

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Its nice to get a German variant of the Patton, but please don't start adding tanks with bulldozer blades on them. Most tanks could have mine rollers, or plows, or bulldozer blades fitted but its pointless to model them in game unless you are adding mines and earthworks and such. Just give us the tank without the unnecessary bulldozer attachment thanks.

MajorRenegade #3 Posted Jul 05 2019 - 23:45

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soooo is the bulldozer going to act like space armor?

stalkervision #4 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 00:19

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View PostMajorRenegade, on Jul 05 2019 - 17:45, said:

soooo is the bulldozer going to act like space armor?

Yes



_Tsavo_ #5 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 00:27

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View PostMajorRenegade, on Jul 05 2019 - 17:45, said:

soooo is the bulldozer going to act like space armor?

With that massive cupola, it'll make any armor is irrelevant, but yes, it'll be spaced


Edited by _Tsavo_, Jul 06 2019 - 00:28.


mrmojo #6 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 03:14

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This is so stupid, German players get trolled again.

RingoMcHarrison #7 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 04:08

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That is a [edited]ugly tank for sure.

Hellsfog #8 Posted Jul 06 2019 - 04:38

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Will WG let us use the bulldozer blade to make our own dirt piles to hide behind? I hope so. 

nrnstraswa #9 Posted Jul 09 2019 - 16:41

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That dispersion is worrisome, 0.44 on a German medium? 

Avalon304 #10 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 23:06

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View Postnrnstraswa, on Jul 09 2019 - 08:41, said:

That dispersion is worrisome, 0.44 on a German medium? 

 

People really need to stop worrying about base dispersion, especially in a vacuum like this without any of the soft handling values. Base dispersion is one of the most irrelevant stats when it comes to gun handling in this game. Its a small part of a much larger interaction.



Omega_Weapon #11 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 03:06

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View PostAvalon304, on Jul 10 2019 - 17:06, said:

People really need to stop worrying about base dispersion, especially in a vacuum like this without any of the soft handling values. Base dispersion is one of the most irrelevant stats when it comes to gun handling in this game. Its a small part of a much larger interaction.


Kind of true, but dispersion is the number Wargaming likes to give us. Unless they want to start disclosing the hidden stats and tell us the real deal up front we are stuck with making assumptions on the basis of the dispersion value. Realistically though, 0.44 will never be a good accuracy number no matter how good the soft gun handling values are.



Goat_Rodeo #12 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 03:22

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Sigh...can we just get KUBOTA splashed across the turret, maybe put a 48” mowing deck under it. May as well make a few Deutschmarks going into battle. 

Hey come to think of it, a premium Canadian Leopard C1 with a zamboni deck would be seemingly appropriate while WGs cheese is slipping offa their crackers. 


Edited by Goat_Rodeo, Jul 11 2019 - 03:31.


Omega_Weapon #13 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 03:31

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Since some seem to like it and some obviously hate the idea of a nonsensical bulldozer tank, why not make the dozer blade attachment an optional module? With the dozer blade you get improved armour for the lower hull, without it you can get better mobility and terrain resistances? Everybody wins.

P0NYTANK #14 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 03:55

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Look at that Tumor on the top of the turret... plz wg...

Avalon304 #15 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 09:03

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 10 2019 - 19:06, said:


Kind of true, but dispersion is the number Wargaming likes to give us. Unless they want to start disclosing the hidden stats and tell us the real deal up front we are stuck with making assumptions on the basis of the dispersion value. Realistically though, 0.44 will never be a good accuracy number no matter how good the soft gun handling values are.

 

Or... or we just stop making assumptions until the tank is added to the client and appears on tanks.gg. Or... even before that we just wait for the inevitable leaked picktures from Tank Inspector that will show all the stats that we need to see. And before that even we can stop drawing assumptions based on the initial stats, since they almost always get changed. Like... people getting worked up of the initial stats for tanks in super test is hilarious, since they almost always change.

 

Heres some of the tank inspector images of this tank:

 

https://i.imgur.com/rYVIYQy.png

 

Its soft handling values are 0.09/0.13//0.13  turret/chassis/movement which is pretty great, with a 1.92 second aim time, which is also pretty great.

 

And these changes were posted by WoTExpress on the 9th:

 

- Reload time from 8.342 to 7.863 
- Damage per minute from 1726.1 to 1831.4 
- Rate of fire from 7.192 to 7.631 
- Shooting accuracy from 0.422 to 0.403 
- Reservation of the bucket of the tank 

 

In which it gets a DPM buff, an accuracy buff (still irrelevant) and the dozer blade gets a bit more armor added to it.

 

Moral of the story: Initial stats almost always change. Stop making assumptions based on them. Base dispersion is still the most irrelevant gun handling stat.


Edited by Avalon304, Jul 11 2019 - 09:03.


Omega_Weapon #16 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 09:37

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View PostAvalon304, on Jul 11 2019 - 03:03, said:

Moral of the story: Initial stats almost always change. Stop making assumptions based on them. Base dispersion is still the most irrelevant gun handling stat.


Yes they tend to change. Part of why they change is our reactions on the forums to the initial stats. Wargaming releases these initial vehicle stats to us knowing we cannot actually test the vehicle ourselves and will have to evaluate it based on the data given (other option to just ignore it completely until it arrives on test server). If the community is up in arms about the dispersion values, that feedback can cause them to look at the dispersion (and overall accuracy) more closely when thinking about revisions. If wargaming isn't interested in our early opinions they need not share ST data in the first place. As for dispersion being the most irrelevant gun handling stat I'd love to hear how you came to that conclusion. Are you for example suggesting a gun with 0.32 dispersion can be considered inaccurate while a gun with 0.48 will be fine for sniping?



Avalon304 #17 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 11:48

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 11 2019 - 01:37, said:


Yes they tend to change. Part of why they change is our reactions on the forums to the initial stats. 

 

No. No they really arent. The reason they change is in reaction to feed back from the super testers who are actively playing the tanks. Anyone who thinks that these tanks change this quickly based on forum feed back severly misunderstands how far in advance game development often happens.

 

In regards to accuracy:

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/527472-tanking-w-science-dispersion-accuracy/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2CaZWHO6sE

 

The difference between a 0.31 accuracy AMX CDC and a 0.51 accuracy KV-1 is 10%... or 1 shot missed out of 10.  Because of the way shells are distributed within the aiming reticle, the majority of your fired shots will fall withing the center portion of your reticle:

 

https://static-ptl-us.gcdn.co/dcont/fb/image/wot_banner_accuracy_en.jpg

 

(We're still on the one that says 9.15).

 

Its not really a suggestion... its pretty much how the game works. Base dispersion is, for the most part, very irrelevant when determining how good a gun is for sniping. That 0.48 gun is still gonna hit most of its shots at range, and not a massive number more than the 0.32 gun. I feel just as accurate in tanks with super accurate (0.29 or 0.30) guns as I do in tanks with what people consider "bad" (0.40 or higher). Like until you get to accuracy so bad that your reticle fills the entire screen when fully closed or so good that your shells have little to no deviation at all, accuracy really doesnt matter. Aim time, and soft handling values do, as they let you get shots off quicker and allow you to fire with reasonable accuracy more often, resulting in more hits and more penetrations.



Omega_Weapon #18 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 21:31

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Its not really a suggestion... its pretty much how the game works. Base dispersion is, for the most part, very irrelevant when determining how good a gun is for sniping. That 0.48 gun is still gonna hit most of its shots at range, and not a massive number more than the 0.32 gun. I feel just as accurate in tanks with super accurate (0.29 or 0.30) guns as I do in tanks with what people consider "bad" (0.40 or higher). Like until you get to accuracy so bad that your reticle fills the entire screen when fully closed or so good that your shells have little to no deviation at all, accuracy really doesnt matter. Aim time, and soft handling values do, as they let you get shots off quicker and allow you to fire with reasonable accuracy more often, resulting in more hits and more penetrations.


I watched the video, but I'd like to point out that he is considering accuracy by randomly hitting somewhere on a heavy tank. That is not meaningful accuracy. How many deliberately aimed shots will hit a weak spot like the lower front plate? That would be an accuracy number that matters. Dez's recent video is better in this regard. I understand and agree that aim time and soft gun handling stats help you hit the target under many conditions, but they are a measure of stabilization rather than raw weapon accuracy. Actual weapon accuracy has to be measured from a stationary position with a fully aimed reticle at a stationary target (ideal conditions). If a gun manufacturer claims to produce the world's most accurate sniper rifle, the accuracy would not be tested by having the user hop up and down on one leg while turning in a circle.



Avalon304 #19 Posted Jul 12 2019 - 01:16

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View PostOmega_Weapon, on Jul 11 2019 - 13:31, said:


I watched the video, but I'd like to point out that he is considering accuracy by randomly hitting somewhere on a heavy tank. That is not meaningful accuracy. How many deliberately aimed shots will hit a weak spot like the lower front plate? That would be an accuracy number that matters. Dez's recent video is better in this regard. I understand and agree that aim time and soft gun handling stats help you hit the target under many conditions, but they are a measure of stabilization rather than raw weapon accuracy. Actual weapon accuracy has to be measured from a stationary position with a fully aimed reticle at a stationary target (ideal conditions). If a gun manufacturer claims to produce the world's most accurate sniper rifle, the accuracy would not be tested by having the user hop up and down on one leg while turning in a circle.

 

That what accuracy means though. Ability to HIT a target.

 

Dez's video is far worse because he doesnt shoot enough shots with each tank to draw any meaningful conclusions. As evidenced by some of his result being large outliers. His video is far more flawed than anyone actually realizes because he doesnt actually have a sample size large enough for it to mean anything. It looks really good to get clicks on a video, but beyond that its relatively meaningless.



Omega_Weapon #20 Posted Jul 12 2019 - 04:11

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View PostAvalon304, on Jul 11 2019 - 19:16, said:

 

That what accuracy means though. Ability to HIT a target.

 

Dez's video is far worse because he doesnt shoot enough shots with each tank to draw any meaningful conclusions. As evidenced by some of his result being large outliers. His video is far more flawed than anyone actually realizes because he doesnt actually have a sample size large enough for it to mean anything. It looks really good to get clicks on a video, but beyond that its relatively meaningless.


There is weapon accuracy, there is gunner accuracy and there are modifying factors to accuracy like vehicle movements vs stabilization systems. The point I'm going for is that clearly dispersion still matters for weapon accuracy and should not be simply dismissed as the most irrelevant stat.

 

As for Dez's accuracy video he admits its not scientifically perfect, but he fired enough rounds under identical conditions to show a very clear trend. Most shots from 200m did not hit at the center aiming mark for any of the tested tanks, even the ones with the statistically most accurate guns. Its enough to show that meaningful accuracy in this game (where we are told to get gud and shoot tiny little weak spots) leaves much to be desired. Maybe somebody will run the test again firing 500 or 1000 shots per gun and we can get more exact results, but don't look at me for that. What little free time I get is better spent actually playing the game.






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