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Penalize bad players in top tiers


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Pipinghot #21 Posted Jul 09 2019 - 23:07

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View PostJunkaTheAdmirable, on Jul 09 2019 - 14:49, said:

Problem:

*Bad players who consistently underperform in tiers 9/10 are hurt less in a loss than decent players who have pride in their performance.

Problem
* You don't understand how Free-to-play games work.

 

1) No F2P game ever locks content behind a wall (or punishes people) based on skill. That's an suicidal idea for a F2P game.

2) These are "Random" battles, the name should be a big hint. They are open to the public, anyone and everyone who wants to jump into a Random battle has just as much right as you do, regardless of skill. If you want to have a skill requirement then focus your game play on skirmishes and clan wars.

3) They already are penalized, by themselves. The rewards that bad players get at high levels are quite low, and the costs are high. If bad players are willing to pay the price to be in high level battles then (again) they have just as much right to be there as you do.

4) Just like everything else in this game, you have the same amount of good luck and bad luck as everyone else. You might have some battles with more bad players on your team, but you also have some with more bad players on the other team, and overall they balance out.

5) In the end, bad players have zero affect on your win rate at high levels and they provide cannon fodder for you so that you can earn more in high level battles.

 



fireball2828 #22 Posted Jul 09 2019 - 23:43

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Sounds to me like Junka would like a level playing field in matches, such as putting players of equal skill on each team. 3000 WN8 tier 10 player on team 1? same on team 2. Three 300 WN8 T9 players on team one? same for team 2. Lets stop the rolls! Lets get better competition!

We should definately not make T10 only playable for top tier players. As long as teams are even, itll be fine. 

Also, if players are going in with nothing but prem consumables, directives, and prem ammo, they should not be earning more credits. They are using credits that they earn to gain a tangible advantage in-game over other players. This would only further the disparity between low-skill and high-skill players.


Edited by fireball2828, Jul 09 2019 - 23:45.


Rawrlynn #23 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 02:41

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View Post_big_bad, on Jul 09 2019 - 22:48, said:

first I am not a great player but in the mm set up I find it hard to bring my stats up. I played 8 battles yesterday 2 tier 8 games which both was tier 10 battles. Play 6 tier 6 battles and all was tier 8 games. All the battles but one was over in 6 mins or less. when you are trying to play smart but within a minute it is a 2 or 3 on one with tanks 1 or 2 tiers higher than you how do you bring the damage or stats up. oh yeah I jump down and played a tier 1 and got put into a tier 2 game then quit. I glad that WG is making so much money but I hate that now everytime I log in they are putting out a new OP tank. I wish they would come out with a version of this game with no prems no prem ammo and they just charged a monthly fee for it I would me in. Then skills would matter not the guy that bought the prem runs food and buys skill with a 900+ camo rating or armor like the king tiger in a tier 5 game. it isn't skill when they just run over everyone

most of my BEST games were 2 tiers down.  don't look at it as a handicap (except for a few tanks .. mostly heavies)  but a challenge to get more damage then the top tier tanks on your team.  

I agree though MM likes sticking it to you over and over usually because of skill difference in the teams.   I still get those road kill games after 3-4 in a row it does get old... but it's almost always tier 10 that really sticks you in the underside. 



AZandEL #24 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 03:07

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View Post__WarChild__, on Jul 09 2019 - 21:41, said:

 

People ask me why I don't play a lot of Tier X.  It's because Wargaming's MM thinks I'm some sort of WoT God and can win against hordes of purple players with only blood red players on my team.  Few people can feel your pain as much as I do.  I would simply like to be compensated for my time and effort if I'm being saddled with unwinnable games due to my team's composition.  It's such a waste of my time, credits and energy.  I've been dealing with it without comment, but when I load into game and see the 39% Maus sitting AFK in our base on Westfield for the first 3 min of battle, I can get a little salty.


Why not stop playing pubs? Just play in your clan wars stuff then you'll never be saddled with that right? Maybe ban clans from playing in pubs all together.



dunniteowl #25 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 03:47

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Maybe bad players at high tiers are there to ensure that you keep your Carry Pants on and have 'em hitched up real good with a Belt of Can Do.

 

I know, it's not a normal thought.  Then again, when we're talking about Bad Players, are we really expectant of anything remotely called 'normal' at that point?

 

 

OvO



__WarChild__ #26 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 06:18

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View PostAZandEL, on Jul 09 2019 - 20:07, said:


Why not stop playing pubs? Just play in your clan wars stuff then you'll never be saddled with that right? Maybe ban clans from playing in pubs all together.

 

Well, I've been trying to do that, but I need the practice in my Tier X's.  I'm great in 9 and below, but Tier X against great players, I'm only average.  I need more Tier X work on all of my tanks.



JunkaTheAdmirable #27 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 09:54

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View Postfireball2828, on Jul 09 2019 - 23:43, said:

Sounds to me like Junka would like a level playing field in matches

 

Please learn to read instead of inventing a strawman that has literally nothing to do with the OP



Pipinghot #28 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 10:39

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View Post__WarChild__, on Jul 09 2019 - 16:41, said:

People ask me why I don't play a lot of Tier X.  It's because Wargaming's MM thinks I'm some sort of WoT God and can win against hordes of purple players with only blood red players on my team.  Few people can feel your pain as much as I do.  I would simply like to be compensated for my time and effort if I'm being saddled with unwinnable games due to my team's composition.  It's such a waste of my time, credits and energy.  I've been dealing with it without comment, but when I load into game and see the 39% Maus sitting AFK in our base on Westfield for the first 3 min of battle, I can get a little salty.

That's pure garbage, and you should know better than this by now, if you can't win at Tier X it means that you're not good enough to win at Tier X (yet).

 

You are absolutely don't have "only blood red players on my team", you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as anyone else. Just like every other tier in the game, the difference between players is what they do at that tier. The MM doesn't treat you better or worse than any other player in the game.



Butcher_Bay #29 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 13:13

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A skilled template thrown into MM would fix most of the issues with these lopsided games anymore. I know some people say it would take searching for games too long and that it would have to match a Unicum against another Unicum, but that's not true at all.

 

Example: One Super-Unicum and two tomatos would = three greens for the other team, or alternatively one blue and two tomatos would = two greens and one tomato for the opposing team. You get the idea though, it doesn't have to match each player with his or her exact opposite to be balanced.

 

P.S. You don't have to run premium consumables and fire mostly Gold ammo to do well in the higher tiers. Just ask Taugrim if you don't believe me.

 

Edit: Granted this kind of skilled template would work much better on a server with a larger play-base, like on the EU or Russian server.


Edited by Butcher_Bay, Jul 10 2019 - 14:02.


ShadowDancer27 #30 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 14:13

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1) I admittedly have bad games, really bad games, in tier 9 and 10 tanks.  I had one of those last night with a WF IV last night...side shots from long range did that worm burner hit dirt at bottom of reticule multiple times, pulled out for an ambush shot in city twice, side shot, base of turret, short range, aimed...no bounce, no crit, no damage...like shell was a blank.

2) Some of us have consistency issues...it takes practice to get better.  The tier X game is different.  Some tanks like an Obj 140 can be more consistent across a range of maps, other tanks not so much.  So you're in one of those other tanks in the late game...your team has a tank advantage but the enemy is playing for a draw...three enemy heavies hull down with funnel approach and you in glass canon with two minutes left.  Bush up and wait=draw, try for a copula shot and get blasted=draw...get called an idiot by toxic players telling you how much you suck either way, yup.

3) It gives me considerable satisfaction igniting engines of players running food.

4) There is this notion that everyone should do 3x-4x their HP in damage to not suck.  Do they not teach logic or math in schools anymore?  Tell me how every team in the NFL could have a 12:4 record.

5) "Lighten up Francis"



DUKE_AUTY #31 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 19:26

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Sure, put another nail in the coffin.

Mojo_Riesing #32 Posted Jul 10 2019 - 20:28

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Look this whole thread is really just yet another effort by the OP to boost TierX not by changes to the game, the mechanics, how players learn...he just wants a private club for Tier X that he can play in.  He wants to be sure we all know how great he is, and what a terrible burden it is to play with the "lower ranks".  If it was up to me, he and any other TierX players would be walled off and NEVER see anything less than other Tier X and for the OP.s delicate condition only players with whatever high-ranked statistical number he wants.If you check the stats accumulated at WoT-News under Server US (NA) it sure looks like Tier X is far from being the mainstay of the game and that in fact Tiers VI and VIII are arguably more commonly played.  I would have said Tier X is a dying Tier, but it really looks like it's always been a fraction of the total user population.

 

From: http://wot-news.com/stat/server/us/norm/en

 

 

Vehicle tier dynamic per week

 
1 Tier
15 011 469 (16.8%)
2 Tier
19 918 764 (22.29%)
3 Tier
14 730 551 (16.49%)
4 Tier
10 115 470 (11.32%)
5 Tier
8 950 905 (10.02%)
6 Tier
7 049 193 (7.89%)
7 Tier
4 855 205 (5.43%)
8 Tier
5 382 244 (6.02%)
9 Tier
1 981 851 (2.22%)
10 Tier
1 359 053 (1.52%)

 

 



Pipinghot #33 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 06:23

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View PostButcher_Bay, on Jul 10 2019 - 07:13, said:

A skilled template thrown into MM would fix most of the issues with these lopsided games anymore. I know some people say it would take searching for games too long and that it would have to match a Unicum against another Unicum, but that's not true at all.

 

Example: One Super-Unicum and two tomatos would = three greens for the other team, or alternatively one blue and two tomatos would = two greens and one tomato for the opposing team. You get the idea though, it doesn't have to match each player with his or her exact opposite to be balanced.

 

P.S. You don't have to run premium consumables and fire mostly Gold ammo to do well in the higher tiers. Just ask Taugrim if you don't believe me.

 

Edit: Granted this kind of skilled template would work much better on a server with a larger play-base, like on the EU or Russian server.

Two questions:

 

1) When you say "lopsided battles" do you mean that the skill levels between the two teams is unbalanced or do you mean steamroll outcomes like 15-0, 14-1, 13-0?

 

2) Do you understand that any form of skill balancing, whether it's SBMM or simply balancing the teams by swapping players around would result in nearly every player in the game having withing 1% of an average win rate, which includes you? You're good, but not good enough to have a significantly higher than average win rate if they use skill balancing.



tanopasman62 #34 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 08:07

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According to your definition the only good players are those tryhards that run full gold loadouts on OP tanks, which, by default, cost a lot to run.

__WarChild__ #35 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 08:35

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 10 2019 - 03:39, said:

That's pure garbage, and you should know better than this by now, if you can't win at Tier X it means that you're not good enough to win at Tier X (yet).

 

You are absolutely don't have "only blood red players on my team", you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as anyone else. Just like every other tier in the game, the difference between players is what they do at that tier. The MM doesn't treat you better or worse than any other player in the game.

 

LOL.  If I get the time (to edit out names), I'll post some stuff here.  Fact is, you're not there, you're just assuming what's there.  And you know what "assuming" does... :ohmy:



Pipinghot #36 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 17:49

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View Post__WarChild__, on Jul 11 2019 - 02:35, said:

LOL.  If I get the time (to edit out names), I'll post some stuff here.  Fact is, you're not there, you're just assuming what's there.  And you know what "assuming" does... :ohmy:

Cherry picking a few battles and posting pictures means nothing. The bottom line is that you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as everyone else in the game, you get the same amount of good teams and bad teams as everyone else in the game, it's just that simple.



ShadowDancer27 #37 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 21:30

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 11 2019 - 10:49, said:

Cherry picking a few battles and posting pictures means nothing. The bottom line is that you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as everyone else in the game, you get the same amount of good teams and bad teams as everyone else in the game, it's just that simple.


Right on!

 

Some of the Unicoms show the video with an amazing outcome but at least 6 moments of pure luck making it possible.  I saw one with a Grille 15 putting up 15000 or so damage...impressive...but...

 

he camped the same bush bush with two arty getting spotted several times...one time being spotted for an extended period he wasn't focused to wreckage.

 

He had one shot BOUNCE (pure luck with a Grille)

His tracks were very hungry eating three shots

 

Well played sure, but could have as easily been an early trip to the garage.

 



__WarChild__ #38 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 23:16

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View PostPipinghot, on Jul 11 2019 - 10:49, said:

Cherry picking a few battles and posting pictures means nothing. The bottom line is that you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as everyone else in the game, you get the same amount of good teams and bad teams as everyone else in the game, it's just that simple.

 

You have no idea if "I" or "we" all get the same or not.  If you say you're 100% certain, you're either delusional or crazy.  If you say that you "assume" we're all getting the same, then you're being realistic - but have just as much chance of being completely wrong.  If you're not willing to admit to some percentage chance of being wrong, then you're delusional.  If you don't realize that there are algorithms running in the background that distinguish the various players, then I can't help you.  I'm not saying those are in-battle algorithms, but they're definitely in-game.  Example: I was the very first person to receive the Insurance offers in NA.  I posted it, no one knew what I was talking about.  Days later, others started getting them too.  That makes sense because I'm competitive and somewhat of a wallet warrior versus FTP players, etc.  Other people get 30% coupons, I've only seen 20%, etc. etc.  We're all being targeted for marketing and such so we'll spend money.  How far all of that goes, no one really knows, but most of you ASSUME that it doesn't extend into the game.  I hope you're right.



FunPolice_ #39 Posted Jul 11 2019 - 23:16

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View PostVetteTanker, on Jul 09 2019 - 14:57, said:

So, only people that use illegal MODS will be able to compete at tiers 9 and 10?... Because its already that way.... Sorry the rest of cant compare to your loft standards... Dont play in PUBS then, problem solved

 



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Pipinghot #40 Posted Jul 12 2019 - 03:44

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View Post__WarChild__, on Jul 11 2019 - 17:16, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Jul 11 2019 - 10:49, said:

Cherry picking a few battles and posting pictures means nothing. The bottom line is that you get the same amount of good luck and bad luck as everyone else in the game, you get the same amount of good teams and bad teams as everyone else in the game, it's just that simple.

You have no idea if "I" or "we" all get the same or not.  If you say you're 100% certain, you're either delusional or crazy.  If you say that you "assume" we're all getting the same, then you're being realistic - but have just as much chance of being completely wrong.

No. The law of large numbers says it's true, and I have no chance of being wrong.

 

We're not talking about a sample size of 50 battles, or even 100 battles, but hundreds and even thousands of battles. Once you get to numbers that large it's impossible for players to have different amounts of luck that actually matter, any possible differences are tiny. If you were new to Tier X, with only a couple hundred battles then you might have had better or worse luck than the average player. But you've played 2447 battles just at Tier X alone, which means that you've had 36,705 opponents and 34,358 teammates in Tier X battles.

 

There is no way that the average composition of your teams has been any worse than any other player at Tier X, by the time you reach that battle count, and that many opponents/teammates, it all averages out. If you want to be super detailed, the full statement would be more like, "the average composition of your teams has not been significantly worse than any other player at Tier X". Sure, there are tiny variations between players, but they're exactly that, tiny. The difference in luck might mean that one player has a 56.5% WR at Tier X and other player has a 56.6% WR at Tier X, but after 2447 battles there is no way that you have had enough bad luck to change your WR in any way that actually matters.

 

Your argument that, "It's because Wargaming's MM thinks I'm some sort of WoT God and can win against hordes of purple players with only blood red players on my team." is just as wrong now as it was when you posted it. You get the same amount of good & bad luck as everyone else, any other answer is just making excuses.


Edited by Pipinghot, Jul 12 2019 - 09:01.





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