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Proposed team damage changes aimed to curb toxicity actually a renaissance in artillery trolling?


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MS06JZaku2 #1 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 07:35

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     In the past, artillery was basically relegated to trolling the other team. Any attempts by artillery players to troll greens for a change would inevitably result in said player's screen of defenders transforming into a vice grip of vengeance, however, in a surprising move by WG, they've announced plans to not only remove team damage but keep artillery's ability to stun allies. Granted, that there is an a-typical level of animosity directed toward artillery players (no doubt many who read this will have gone through an episode of snapping after one too many splash hits and turning that grudge onto the nearest target) but interestingly, WG have chosen to ignore how artillery players often dish out just as much as they get. Many who read this will also probably have experienced the case where a one-on-one duel with an enemy tank suddenly became distinctly one-sided because a "friendly' arty didn't particularly care where their shot landed. "Danger close? Lol, not for me!" So naturally it would seem, a highly vocal element within WoT has grown over time to think of Artillery not as just another fun adding, strategic element in a diverse battlefield environment but a broken mechanic used disproportionately to grief tankers over winning team objectives. In other words, artillery players often times are themselves a source of toxicity, not merely the victims of it. 

 

     Obviously intentional team damage and the way it can dramatically escalate (as demonstrated in WG's video and which my own experience can corroborate) poses far more harm to a team's chances than an errant arty round or two and it's a worthy area to focus on to keep the game tolerable enough to play. I just think that leaving arty as the sole vehicle class that can harm allies (however indirectly) is in no way a path to curbing toxicity. They haven't been especially careful in placing their shots up to now and that's unlikely to change. If anything, this change will only enable the dedicated arty trolls to shoot team mates more than ever. WG's video did suggest that joining the blue team may still be possible under the new system, so it may not be the case that artillery will be able to stun-lock allies in perpetuity but we'll have to see.

 

Thoughts?



tanopasman62 #2 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 07:42

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When playing arty I try to avoid hitting greens, so I let everyone know where I'm aiming at with some anticipation, if I can't hit the enemy without hurting a green, I don't shoot.

 

Although admitedly I sometimes forget about it when said green has two red icons next to his name.



I_QQ_4_U #3 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 07:57

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Well I don't play SPG's that much anymore but it will allow me to save more allies without worrying about killing them(usually when they are outnumbered by very low health tanks) but in a situation where a stun is going to hurt them more(when everyone is has enough health that I can't kill they reds) I'd still have to hold my shots. However I do agree that bad players, when they are in SPG's, will be more likely to just drop bombs on everyone more often. No different than when they are in any other tank and take bad shots, like playing a heavy and being shot in the back of the turret by the low 40's parked behind you because they aim at tank icons.



EmperorJuliusCaesar #4 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 09:18

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View PostMS06JZaku2, on Jul 14 2019 - 13:35, said:

     In the past, artillery was basically relegated to trolling the other team. Any attempts by artillery players to troll greens for a change would inevitably result in said player's screen of defenders transforming into a vice grip of vengeance, however, in a surprising move by WG, they've announced plans to not only remove team damage but keep artillery's ability to stun allies. Granted, that there is an a-typical level of animosity directed toward artillery players (no doubt many who read this will have gone through an episode of snapping after one too many splash hits and turning that grudge onto the nearest target) but interestingly, WG have chosen to ignore how artillery players often dish out just as much as they get. Many who read this will also probably have experienced the case where a one-on-one duel with an enemy tank suddenly became distinctly one-sided because a "friendly' arty didn't particularly care where their shot landed. "Danger close? Lol, not for me!" So naturally it would seem, a highly vocal element within WoT has grown over time to think of Artillery not as just another fun adding, strategic element in a diverse battlefield environment but a broken mechanic used disproportionately to grief tankers over winning team objectives. In other words, artillery players often times are themselves a source of toxicity, not merely the victims of it. 

 

     Obviously intentional team damage and the way it can dramatically escalate (as demonstrated in WG's video and which my own experience can corroborate) poses far more harm to a team's chances than an errant arty round or two and it's a worthy area to focus on to keep the game tolerable enough to play. I just think that leaving arty as the sole vehicle class that can harm allies (however indirectly) is in no way a path to curbing toxicity. They haven't been especially careful in placing their shots up to now and that's unlikely to change. If anything, this change will only enable the dedicated arty trolls to shoot team mates more than ever. WG's video did suggest that joining the blue team may still be possible under the new system, so it may not be the case that artillery will be able to stun-lock allies in perpetuity but we'll have to see.

 

Thoughts?

 

Arty doesn't both me, 9/10 times I get hit, it's by other tanks, same as when I hit others, lined up in a TD and some medium that was camping beside me decides to finally pull away and boom, shot, then shoots me back, etc.

 

Anything is better than what we have now.  People will finally have to learn to deal with arty and not being able to TK them or to do the barrel trick to kill them. 



JakeTheMystic #5 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 11:18

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Removing team damage not only does nothing to prevent toxicity, but I only see it as a way to encourage people to be more "creative" in their ways of trolling. 

 

Since you can't block people's barrels (nobody has really been doing that since 2015 anyway). You cant retaliate by shooting someone, people will just resort to following that person around all game and either driving in front of their shots or they just shove that player into the enemy. 

 

But you say; "Jake! People won't do that, they could just get reported for physics abuse!" 

 

To which I laugh at your face if you think WG actually does anything with the reports they receive. I've sent in at least 5 and no actions were taken in any of those cases. I know of chat banned players, those are common. Players banned for illegal mods, sure. Banned for ramming/blocking? Hardly any if any at all. The team damage system in place would do fine if they were a bit more strict. I've seen players get away with 2-3 shots before turning blue and thats just too many. 2 in one game should be an instant blue leaning towards a ban at that. 

 

At least that would teach players to hold their shots instead of trying to weave their shell past 8 allies just to finish off a 100 hp tank. 

 

Besides, if there are no "punishments" for poor decisions; i.e. shooting an ally that drives in front of you because you arent aware of your surroundings. Players will never learn to improve their situational awareness. As we all know, WG likes to preach their enthusiasm for new players to "get gud". 



3bagsfull #6 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 11:54

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Thoughts?

1)   People are getting their panties in a wad about nothing.    The grievers are a small minority in this game and even then no matter what system is in place they will find a loophole they can use to grieve people with anyway - because that is how they get their rocks off.   You can change this game till the cows come home and the only way you can create an environment where grievers won't play is to make the game where nobody plays it anymore - and they move on to another game to do their grieving - it's what they do.

2)   This isn't going to change how arty plays at all.   Arty, like every other class can't do damage unless it fires and they are going to go "bombs away" just like they do now - whether you are there or not.    Those kind of players already make up a much larger percentage than the people in #1.    3 arty matches just make the likelihood of it happening more.   Lets be honest here, out of 100 arty players about 5 actually mark their targets from what I've seen watching streams over the last 7 months.  The other 95 don't even acknowledge your existence, you are a fly in the way of their fly swatter.

 

 



HOTA_CHATON #7 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 14:30

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View PostMS06JZaku2, on Jul 14 2019 - 00:35, said:

     In the past, artillery was basically relegated to trolling the other team. Any attempts by artillery players to troll greens for a change would inevitably result in said player's screen of defenders transforming into a vice grip of vengeance, however, in a surprising move by WG, they've announced plans to not only remove team damage but keep artillery's ability to stun allies. Granted, that there is an a-typical level of animosity directed toward artillery players (no doubt many who read this will have gone through an episode of snapping after one too many splash hits and turning that grudge onto the nearest target) but interestingly, WG have chosen to ignore how artillery players often dish out just as much as they get. Many who read this will also probably have experienced the case where a one-on-one duel with an enemy tank suddenly became distinctly one-sided because a "friendly' arty didn't particularly care where their shot landed. "Danger close? Lol, not for me!" So naturally it would seem, a highly vocal element within WoT has grown over time to think of Artillery not as just another fun adding, strategic element in a diverse battlefield environment but a broken mechanic used disproportionately to grief tankers over winning team objectives. In other words, artillery players often times are themselves a source of toxicity, not merely the victims of it. 

 

     Obviously intentional team damage and the way it can dramatically escalate (as demonstrated in WG's video and which my own experience can corroborate) poses far more harm to a team's chances than an errant arty round or two and it's a worthy area to focus on to keep the game tolerable enough to play. I just think that leaving arty as the sole vehicle class that can harm allies (however indirectly) is in no way a path to curbing toxicity. They haven't been especially careful in placing their shots up to now and that's unlikely to change. If anything, this change will only enable the dedicated arty trolls to shoot team mates more than ever. WG's video did suggest that joining the blue team may still be possible under the new system, so it may not be the case that artillery will be able to stun-lock allies in perpetuity but we'll have to see.

 

Thoughts?


Where do you read that this is all about arty and nothing else?  Please share your information as you are wrong.  This change has more to do with the trolls who drive tanks and tank destroyers more than anything.  Far more team damage and killing is caused by those than arty and we know it.  Arty is just more memorable it's everybody's favorite berry to pick. 



jst2gr8 #8 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 14:36

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View Post3bagsfull, on Jul 14 2019 - 03:54, said:

Thoughts?

1)   People are getting their panties in a wad about nothing.    The grievers are a small minority in this game and even then no matter what system is in place they will find a loophole they can use to grieve people with anyway - because that is how they get their rocks off.   You can change this game till the cows come home and the only way you can create an environment where grievers won't play is to make the game where nobody plays it anymore - and they move on to another game to do their grieving - it's what they do.

2)   This isn't going to change how arty plays at all.   Arty, like every other class can't do damage unless it fires and they are going to go "bombs away" just like they do now - whether you are there or not.    Those kind of players already make up a much larger percentage than the people in #1.    3 arty matches just make the likelihood of it happening more.   Lets be honest here, out of 100 arty players about 5 actually mark their targets from what I've seen watching streams over the last 7 months.  The other 95 don't even acknowledge your existence, you are a fly in the way of their fly swatter.

 

 

That is because there are too many greedy players in the game and face hug a tank, even though they are over matched. People are done with marking tanks and their allies sit there without moving away. Even after marking the target a second time, if my ally does not move I shoot. I hate holding shells because someone thinks they do not need the help. Rarely when marking a tank that I have targeted does an ally move away. You can blame the arty player all you want but most of it falls on the tank or tanks that are face hugging. 



Jryder #9 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 14:43

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View Post3bagsfull, on Jul 14 2019 - 02:54, said:

Thoughts?

1)   People are getting their panties in a wad about nothing.    The grievers are a small minority in this game and even then no matter what system is in place they will find a loophole they can use to grieve people with anyway - because that is how they get their rocks off.   You can change this game till the cows come home and the only way you can create an environment where grievers won't play is to make the game where nobody plays it anymore - and they move on to another game to do their grieving - it's what they do.

2)   This isn't going to change how arty plays at all.   Arty, like every other class can't do damage unless it fires and they are going to go "bombs away" just like they do now - whether you are there or not.    Those kind of players already make up a much larger percentage than the people in #1.    3 arty matches just make the likelihood of it happening more.   Lets be honest here, out of 100 arty players about 5 actually mark their targets from what I've seen watching streams over the last 7 months.  The other 95 don't even acknowledge your existence, you are a fly in the way of their fly swatter.

 

 

Spot on.

 

I would also add that, according to the WG video, Arty can still be punished for nuking their own. Too much FF stun and they lose their FF immunity for a time just as they would turn blue for a similar offense now.



the_dude_76 #10 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 14:57

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View PostMS06JZaku2, on Jul 14 2019 - 00:35, said:

   Many who read this will also probably have experienced the case where a one-on-one duel with an enemy tank suddenly became distinctly one-sided because a "friendly' arty didn't particularly care where their shot landed.

     

 

This rarely happens to me but I've started looking at the offender every time it does and, albeit in my very limited sample, I've noticed a pattern. Every time it's happened to me since I've started paying attention it has been a green or better player with well under 10% of their games played in arty. So-called "arty players" get grief for every infraction committed by arty but now I can't help but wonder if most of that ill will is directed at the wrong people.

 

If you hate arty and only play it because you feel that you're "forced" to, for whatever reason, then you're going to care a lot less about "unintentional" team damage. You may even see it as a bonus if you can get one more person pissed at "arty players" and the class in general.



WIZD #11 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 14:57

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Not me. No sir. I very rarely hit a friendly in my SPG.

WIZD #12 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 15:02

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View PostUvBeenTrumped, on Jul 14 2019 - 14:36, said:

That is because there are too many greedy players in the game and face hug a tank, even though they are over matched. People are done with marking tanks and their allies sit there without moving away. Even after marking the target a second time, if my ally does not move I shoot. I hate holding shells because someone thinks they do not need the help. Rarely when marking a tank that I have targeted does an ally move away. You can blame the arty player all you want but most of it falls on the tank or tanks that are face hugging. 

I play arty as well. If there is a friendly brawling with the enemy and doesn't want to move that's on them. It is not your place to send a round down range. It's their hp on the line. You wait till it's about to die then send a round. Alternatively you can try to stun just the enemy tank.


Edited by WIZD, Jul 14 2019 - 15:05.


the_dude_76 #13 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 15:26

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View PostUvBeenTrumped, on Jul 14 2019 - 07:36, said:

That is because there are too many greedy players in the game and face hug a tank, even though they are over matched. People are done with marking tanks and their allies sit there without moving away. Even after marking the target a second time, if my ally does not move I shoot. I hate holding shells because someone thinks they do not need the help. Rarely when marking a tank that I have targeted does an ally move away. You can blame the arty player all you want but most of it falls on the tank or tanks that are face hugging. 

 

This is one of the most ridiculous excuses that I've ever heard. You know that face hugging is the only way to use your armor in many one on one confrontations. I mean what exactly do you expect them to do?? Back up and expose their lower plate because you're too lazy to find a different target?? You can blame the arty player because it is 100% their fault... Friggin' duh!



cavalry11 #14 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 15:55

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No face hugging is stupid and a good way to get killed duh. I will usually mark a target once if our team idiot wont move away then I fire he was warned.

I_QQ_4_U #15 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 16:39

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View Postcavalry11, on Jul 14 2019 - 15:55, said:

No face hugging is stupid and a good way to get killed duh. I will usually mark a target once if our team idiot wont move away then I fire he was warned.

 

Unfortunately these are the idiots we have to play with. Oh look, 45%.



CynicalDutchie #16 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 16:53

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They wanted to remove some of the toxicity in this game but in doing so have created a system that will allow you to be more toxic than you could ever hope to be.

LeaveIT2Beaver #17 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 17:03

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When I play arty for missions, I try to be an asset for the win. My 7 rules;

  1. I will call out treefall or building damage that is relevant
  2. I let players know  where I am looking so they know where I am on the map
  3. If a player is in trouble on the map, I hit the map with my marker and tell them I am watching. 
    • I will try to hit the red tank and track it if I can if they want me to do so. But they have to FALL BACK a bit
  4. I can see red tanks that they can't (over buildings and around corners) and tell others what the red tanks are doing
  5. If a green tank is calling SOS over and over in a face hug, yes, I will TRY to hit behind the red tank to help. I am not trying to "kill steal". Chances of the green tank getting stunned is 100%
  6. I will answer calls for fire on the map
  7. I refuse to try to kill steal. Arty does not pay enough credits for it and it just causes rage

 



grandthefttankV #18 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 17:05

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Yep. The removal of team damage will
Undoubtedly cause a surge in griefing in other forms.

grandthefttankV #19 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 17:17

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View Postcavalry11, on Jul 14 2019 - 14:55, said:

No face hugging is stupid and a good way to get killed duh. I will usually mark a target once if our team idiot wont move away then I fire he was warned.

 

Face hugging is a great way to expose your weak spots and cupola to the enemy at a range where they cant possibly miss.



jst2gr8 #20 Posted Jul 14 2019 - 17:18

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Jul 14 2019 - 07:26, said:

 

This is one of the most ridiculous excuses that I've ever heard. You know that face hugging is the only way to use your armor in many one on one confrontations. I mean what exactly do you expect them to do?? Back up and expose their lower plate because you're too lazy to find a different target?? You can blame the arty player because it is 100% their fault... Friggin' duh!

If you could read and look past your giant ego then you would have seen that I said, " even though they are over matched". So no it isn't arty's fault if a player is too dumb to move away. And what if that is the only target that is lit to do damage to? What now Mr. Smart Guy? 

Bottom line, if I am playing arty and I have to keep marking a target that you wont move away from then prepare to get stunned and possible damage taken from you. 






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