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"Get Good" and other LIES....


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SimplyPzB2 #1 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 05:45

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The purpose of this Topic is to discuss the game mechanic that is 'Matchmaker'.

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While screenshots of actual gameplay will be shown, individual players in those games are NOT the subject of this thread.  But I do note anonymous skill levels of the players (players names have been crossed out).  The skill level breakdown:

Purple            Top  .1% of playerbase, Super Unicum

Blue               Top 1% of playerbase, Unicum

Green            Good players, with winrates in the 52%-57% range

Yellow            Adequate player, with winrates in the 49%-52% range

Orange          Bad player, with winrates in the 46$-49% range

Red               Very bad player, with winrate below 45%

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Note, there is NOTHING wrong with being Orange or Red.  This simply indicates a new player (nothing wrong with that), or a 'for fun' player (nothing wrong with that).

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LIE:  You lose because YOU are bad.  All you have to do is GET GOOD, and you will win.

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LIE:  The only constant in every battle is YOU, thus you are 100% responsible for every loss (but not win).

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LIE:  Only bad players complain about losing.  Good players never complain about losing (or winning)

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These are some of the Forum trolls 'favorites'.  But they are total lies.  Used by people who are either intentionally trolling, or intentionally trying to deceive you.  I think it's important to call out these lies and not only say they are lies, but to show actual proof.  (Sometimes actual proof actually shuts the trolls up, but just watch, some of them will still try to purport one or all of these lies).

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In the Actual Proof Battles that follow I will point out just how big the above lies are.  Please be aware I could post battles like the ones below every single night I play, this isn't rare by any definition of the word rare.

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Actual Proof Battle #1:

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The first battle is a tier 5-7 battle.   Let's breakdown the teams:

                  Team 1        Team 2

Purple            0                 0

Blue               0                 1

Green            2                 0

Yellow            6                 2         Team 1 has (8) 'skilled' players, while Team 2 only has (3) 'skilled' players.

Orange          3                 9

Red               4                 3         Team 1 has (7) 'unskilled' players, while Team two has (12) 'unskilled'

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Pre-Battle screen shot to access teams: 

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The next screen shot is a little less than 4 minutes in, shown to give a sense of how the battle played out.  Team 2 is already down (5) tanks and about 3k in team hitpoints.  They have already lost the City entirely, are about to lose south and mid.   The game is over at this point.  That it takes a few more minutes to clean up is irrelevant.

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Post battle results: 

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LIES DEBUNKED:

Get Good:  Note the SU-122-44 is an extremely good player.  He Got Good a long time ago.  Yet he still lost because his team was much much worse than Team 1.  He had (4) zero damage tanks.  Both flanks fell in less than (4) minutes.  He lost PURELY because his team was handicapped by having way less skill than Team 1.

Only Constant is You:  The Random MM is a constant.  The fact that every battle is composed of 29 other DIFFERENT random players is constant.  THE FACT HE DOESN'T PICK THE TEAMS IS CONSTANT.    The SU-122-44 had no part/responsibility for being on Team 2.  MM decided his fate.  His skill was meaningless.

Only bad players complain about losing: Note, I'm on the winning team.  I am NOT complaining about getting beaten.  Although I would be if I was the SU-122-44.  No one wants to be put on a very bad team (facing a much better team).  It's simple frustrating and pointless.  No Sally, this is not 'world of farm damage before you die'.  This is world of tanks, and the expectation is you will partake in exciting combat.

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Actual Proof Battle #2:

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The second battle is a tier 7-9 battle:  Let's break down the teams:

                  Team 1        Team 2

Purple            0                 0

Blue               2                 1

Green            4                 0

Yellow            5                 6         Team 1 has (11) 'skilled' players, while Team 2 only has (7) 'skilled' players.

Orange          3                 5

Red               1                 3         Team 1 has (4) 'unskilled' players, while Team two has (8) 'unskilled'

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The next screenshot is 2-1/2 minutes in.  The T-10 Unicum  has only just got into position and Team 2 is already down by over 2,000+ team hitpoints.    Note Team 1 has all  but abandoned the Southwest corner of the map, normally a fatal mistake.

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Now we are almost at (4) whole minutes.  Team 2 is now down my 6,000+ team hitpoints.  It would be extremely hard for the T-10 Unicum to pull back 6,000 hitpoints, even if he was still alive.  Of course it's very hard to win hill when only half of your heavies push hill with you.  And you know, one heavy camps base, another heavy runs south solo.  The battle is pretty  much over at this point, unless Team 1 was to completely melt down.

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Spoiler alert, Team 1 does not melt down.  The part of Team 2 that pushed south did so one at a time, and were easily picked off.  And Team 1 won the hill easily because 5/6 Team 1 heavies went hill.  Just over (5) minutes in and team 1 is up by 9,000+ team hitpoints and (8) tanks.  The T-10 Unicum was not going to pull that back. 

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Post Battle Results:

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LIES DEBUNKED:

Get Good:  Note the T-10 is an extremely good player.  He Got Good a long time ago.  Yet he still lost because his team was much much worse than Team 1.  He had (5) zero damage tanks.  His heavies didn't go hill, his team didn't scout mid, and those that went south went one by one.  He lost PURELY because his team was handicapped by having way less skill than Team 1.

Only Constant is You:  The Random MM is a constant.  The fact that every battle is composed of 29 other DIFFERENT random players is constant.  THE FACT HE DOESN'T PICK THE TEAMS IS CONSTANT.    The T-10 had no part/responsibility for being on Team 2.  MM decided his fate.  His skill was meaningless.

Only bad players complain about losing: Note, I'm on the winning team.  I am NOT complaining about getting beaten.  Although I would be if I was the T-10.  No one wants to be put on a very bad team (facing a much better team).  It's simple frustrating and pointless.  No Sally, this is not 'world of farm damage before you die'.  This is world of tanks, and the expectation is you will partake in exciting combat.

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Final thoughts:

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Skill is THE MOST CRITICAL ASPECT of this game.  When the MM 'stacks' one team (randomly or otherwise), it's completely unfair to the less skilled team.  Especially since no one gets to pick their team.  (If you got to pick and picked poorly, that would be on you, but that's NOT what is happening).  And it's unfair to both good and bad players equally. 

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Being gifted a win (as I was in both battles above, note in the second battle I simply drove out to the magic bush and sat there for 90% of the battle - because I could, because the enemy team didn't have the skill to counter or scout mid) is not satisfying at all.  It's VERY boring.  It's not what people sign up for.  Gifted wins are certainly not what gets people excited about playing.

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Guaranteed losses are the flipside to gifted wins.  They suck.  I've been in the SU-122-44 and T-10s shoes before.  Where I am the lone green player in a sea of red/orange vs. a team with 7-8 green (or better) players.  Guaranteed losses are not only frustrating, they are just not fun.  I don't want to farm, I want to compete.

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Solution:  WG needs to incorporate skill and balance the teams.  As has been pointed out or suggested many, many, many times - you SHOULDN'T factor in skill BEFORE the teams are selected by the current MM.  Keep the current MM exactly as is (no new programming, no work, no extra wait times, etc) - THEN once both teams have been selected, swap a few players out between teams until both teams are APPROXIMATELY balanced in terms of skill.  No one has ever asked for 'perfect' balance.  

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So if you think every battle should START on a level playing field, click the +1.  Otherwise sit back and enjoy the troll show, it should be epic watching them dance around the hard evidence....

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EDIT 01:  Well we are 10 pages of comment in at this edit.  And I called it.  The trolls were out in force.  So many non-relevant posts.  So many stat shaming misdirections.  So many off topic comments.  Out of 10 pages of comments, I think there were (2) whole comments that actually commented on the sample game images.  No one provided an counter data or images.  But several people did strike up some interesting points and counterpoints were made.  If you venture further, I'd focus on those, maybe add your own, and skip the trolls posts.

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EDIT 02: Page 16 edit.  Yup, 16 pages.  Apparently this is a pretty hot topic.  One of the things I realize after reading a lot of responses (actual responses, not the troll responses) is that so many people just aren't aware of just how bad it is.  I get xvm is an aftermarket mod, so most won't install it.  So I feel like this is an educational process.  I'm sure if every saw just how often team skill determines the outcome, they would beg WG for sbmm.  In that spirit, here are a couple more recent samples.  Again, I get these types of battles EVERY night.  They aren't rare by any stretch of the imagination.

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Actual Proof Battle #3:

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The second battle is a tier 6-8 battle:  Let's break down the teams:

                  Team 1        Team 2

Purple            0                 0

Blue               1                 0

Green            4                 1

Yellow            7                 2         Team 1 has (11) 'skilled' players, while Team 2 only has (3) 'skilled' players.

Orange          2                 8

Red               1                 4         Team 1 has (3) 'unskilled' players, while Team two has (12) 'unskilled'

 

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Brace yourself, the totally unexpected is about to happen...  just kidding.  3:30 into the battle and we are already up 7 tanks and 6,000xp.  Not to mention the mini-map, that's the definition of map control...  Why can't the lone green kv-2  carry?  Maybe he should get good...???

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Thing is, the kv-2 player is 'already good'.  It's just almost impossible to overcome 6 teammates who did ZERO damage. 

Bottom line is this.  No player picked their team.  No player has anything to do with being put on either team.  This is pure 'luck of the draw'.  This shouldn't happen, and wouldn't under sbmm.  There was nothing stopping sbmm from swapping two of our green players to the other team.  That would have been 3 greens per team.  And swapping a few yellow players to really even things out.  As long the the players were swapped 'horizontally' (The T32 could only be swapped across for the T34) tank type and tier balance would have been maintained. 

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Actual Proof Battle #4:  (Caution, not for viewing by women or children, or those with weak constitutions...)

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The second battle is a tier 6-8 battle:  Let's break down the teams:

                  Team 1        Team 2

Purple            0                 0

Blue               0                 0

Green            5                 1

Yellow            3                 2         Team 1 has (8) 'skilled' players, while Team 2 only has (3) 'skilled' players.

Orange          7                 7

Red               0                 5         Team 1 has (7) 'unskilled' players, while Team two has (12) 'unskilled'

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But this screenshot doesn't tell the full horror, let's see a deeper dive:  Team 1 had ONE player with a sub 50% win rate, just ONE.  Whereas Team 2 has NINE!  Team 1 has two players in the mid 50%, 1 payer at 59%, and TWO players at 60%+.  Team 2 has ONE player over 50%.  Yeah, stop reading now if you have a weak stomach...

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2:20 into the battle and we are up FIVE tanks!  But I'm sure that Tiger P will be able to...  no, it's to cruel to even joke about this....

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3:20 into the battle and we are up by 5,000hp...  Look away I say, look away...

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30 SECONDS LATER...  We are now up by 9,000xp...

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ZOMG!  15-0.  We won by 10,400xp.  FYI, the Tiger P doesn't carry enough ammo to do anywhere near that much damage.  Impossible to carry. 

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There will be surprises here...

So 11 of Team 1 got (very close to ) 1,000 dmg or much more.  Conversely, Team 2 had ONE player who got over 1,000 dmg. 

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I really really need to be clear here.  This has nothing to do with any single player on either team.  Not a single tank on Team 1 was a 'hero'.  Not a single failure on Team 2 either.  This was 100% the result of the random MM not factoring in skill and making Team 1 very skilled, and Team 2 very low skilled.  -

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What could sbmm do about it?  For starters, they could have put the 2 non-tooned greens on Team 2.  Thus making it 3 vs 2 greens.  Second, they could have easily put either the Chrysler K or T29 toons onto Team 1.  3 of the 4 players in these toons were composed of brand new players - it is absolutely outrageous that both teams were on the same team.  Zero excuse for this. 

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Again, I could post sample battles like these every day.  They happen ALL THE TIME.  And will continue to do so until the playerbase sounds off to WG.  This affects the gameplay far more than gold rounds, far more than arty, far more than +/-2 tier mm.  Nothing even comes close to affecting the outcome as team skill balance.

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Sidebar.  So many people say the 'snowball' effect is what causes blowouts.  Superficially this is true, as in the battle above.  One team got an early advantage and blew through the enemy.  What the snowball fanboys refuse to admit is there are different root causes for snowball blowouts.  When two very good teams face off and one of them gets and early advantage, their high level of skill allows them to see the opening and maximize/multiply the advantage.  THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS BATTLE.  No one on Team 1 made some crafty/sweet move to crack the integrity of Team 2.  Team 2 had a lot of new players, and lower skilled players.  Team 1 simple pushed the 'W' key and mowed them down.  A crystal clear example of 'team sealclubbing'. 

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So when you read responses to this thread, keep a sharp eye out for anyone actually commenting on this battle.  FYI, you won't see anyone mention this battle because there is no defense for stacking teams THIS badly.  No defense at all.  So stat shaming check.  Hyperbole check.  Changing the subject check.  Sheets of stats check.  None of it will change the fact these crap battles exist.  The fact that about 20% of all your battles will be like this (ok, not as bad as this last one, but certainly as bad as the other examples).

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What to we want? SBMM!  When to we want it? NOW!!!


Edited by SimplyPzB2, Jul 23 2019 - 06:40.


Warmongergearhead #2 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 05:56

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The thing is, MM and RNG does decide the fate of the game. Quite often I can have a big damage game and the next I might as well be firing confetti with the same tank. Like everything else in the world it comes down to money. Someone just bought a new premium tank and account, so the -RNG is cranked hard and you're ducks in a shooting gallery for a battle no matter a 4-5 perk crew and your best tank....hmmph.

GeorgePreddy #3 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:06

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Only losers go full tinfoil.             L

 

 

WG has made it pretty, pretty, pretty clear that SBMM in ANY form, is just NOT in the cards for Random Battles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



SawUcomin #4 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:14

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Do you really think anyone with 21000 games played should have a win rate of 45%

Granted that there may be some players that are physically or mentally challenged and this is understandable

But a big problem (as I see it) is players having little motivation to get better.

There is no incentive provided by Wot to get better!

Tanks can be bought right into tier 8 with absolutely minimal understanding of the game

and no idea of maps , positions, rolls of each tank, comprehension of teamwork

Anyone can pay money and fail their way into the highest tier games and drag the rest down.

They have no idea what to do, where to go and often there will be more than one very inexperienced player  on one team with very experienced and or proficient players on the other side.

If players had to obtain merit marks, rewards, minimal games played in each tier, had to elite at least by clean grinding up (no free exp bought/redeemed/traded with cash) then the game quality would be 1000% better

Instead WG rewards failure and those with cash to burn

As for the rest of your long winded post

TL;DR any of it but a short skimming.



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #5 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:24

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oh god is this another mfezi alt?? 

I_QQ_4_U #6 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:28

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Imagine if these guys put as much effort into playing the game as they do this nonsense.

Burning_Haggis #7 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:29

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Jul 15 2019 - 23:06, said:

 

Only losers go full tinfoil.             L

 

 

WG has made it pretty, pretty, pretty clear that SBMM in ANY form, is just NOT in the cards for Random Battles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your sister says to move your bicycle out of the driveway.



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #8 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:29

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im telling you now, its mfezi. 99% certain!

SimplyPzB2 #9 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:29

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View PostSawUcomin, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:14, said:

Do you really think anyone with 21000 games played should have a win rate of 45%

Granted that there may be some players that are physically or mentally challenged and this is understandable

But a big problem (as I see it) is players having little motivation to get better.

There is no incentive provided by Wot to get better!

Tanks can be bought right into tier 8 with absolutely minimal understanding of the game

and no idea of maps , positions, rolls of each tank, comprehension of teamwork

Anyone can pay money and fail their way into the highest tier games and drag the rest down.

They have no idea what to do, where to go and often there will be more than one very inexperienced player  on one team with very experienced and or proficient players on the other side.

If players had to obtain merit marks, rewards, minimal games played in each tier, had to elite at least by clean grinding up (no free exp bought/redeemed/traded with cash) then the game quality would be 1000% better

Instead WG rewards failure and those with cash to burn

As for the rest of your long winded post

TL;DR any of it but a short skimming.


Yes, yes I do think someone with 21,000 games should have a winrate of 45%.  21,000 games means they are having fun.  I welcome anyone who wants to have fun play this game (lord knows we need the numbers for the playerbase).

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What I DO have an issue with is when 'random' MM puts 12 of these guys on one team, and 3 of them on the other team.  You see, your point makes a great support point for this Post.  It's not that there 'are' less skilled players - it's that the 'random' mm lumps them all on one team.

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SimplyPzB2 #10 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:30

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View PostBurning_Haggis, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:29, said:

Your sister says to move your bicycle out of the driveway.


Nice...



Nixeldon #11 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:31

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Jul 16 2019 - 00:24, said:

oh god is this another mfezi alt?? 

SoTrue/bikebudha1/SoloPubJesus/JohnnyReroll

 

 

 

 



SimplyPzB2 #12 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:32

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:06, said:

 

Only losers go full tinfoil.             L

 

 

WG has made it pretty, pretty, pretty clear that SBMM in ANY form, is just NOT in the cards for Random Battles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


First troll.  No points to make.  No rebuttal.  Just a lame insult...    (Oh, WG also said they'd never fix arty, or fix map rotation, or change gold ammo, et all..   yet the playerbase raised their voices enough, and well change happened)...



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #13 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:33

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View PostNixeldon, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:31, said:

SoTrue/bikebudha1/SoloPubJesus/JohnnyReroll

 

 

 

 

ooof forgot all about sotrue.

 

but has he ever been that verbose? his posts were less winded. this is neatoman/mfezi tinfoil lenght and degree. 



SimplyPzB2 #14 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:34

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View PostNixeldon, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:31, said:

SoTrue/bikebudha1/SoloPubJesus/JohnnyReroll

 

 

 

 

Another troll.  No points to make.  No rebuttal.  Just off topic banter..



SawUcomin #15 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:35

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:06, said:

 

 

Only losers hide at low tiers and seal club

 

The only constant here is a player that seal clubs at tier 5 !

Time to put on some big boy pants George. 

Time to step out of the kiddy pool George.

Time to step up and out of your long time hunkered down fox hole know as tier 5 you're always in.

How can you actually grasp what many players are having to experience in the top half of this game if you never set foot into it.

You call out tin foil but at least OP has gone to the store and paid his dues to buy some!

I would rather listen to someone that has experience and may be incorrect,  (which i'm not saying in this case because I haven't read through it yet)

than to listen to a mouth with a large green crayon. One that's afraid to jump off the diving board and one wallows in the shallow end

because he's afraid that if he ventures out into the deep end he may realize that he actually can't swim and can barely can tread water ! 


Edited by SawUcomin, Jul 16 2019 - 06:45.


SimplyPzB2 #16 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:36

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:29, said:

im telling you now, its mfezi. 99% certain!


multi-post troll...  no points, no rebuttal, just off topic banter... sigh.  almost as predictable as it is sad...



jsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1 #17 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:38

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View PostSimplyPzB2, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:36, said:


multi-post troll...  no points, no rebuttal, just off topic banter... sigh.  almost as predictable as it is sad...

cant you tell when you are being ignored?



SimplyPzB2 #18 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:39

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View PostSawUcomin, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:35, said:

The only constant here is a player that seal clubs at tier 6!

Time to put on some big boy pants George. 

Time to step out of the kiddy pool George.

Time to step up and out of your long time hunkered down fox hole know as tier 6 you're always in.

How can you actually grasp what many players are having to experience in the top half of this game if you never set foot into it.

You call out tin foil but at least OP has gone to the store and paid his dues to buy some!

I would rather listen to someone that has experience and may be incorrect  (which i'm not saying in this case because I haven't read through it yet)

Than to listen to a mouth with a large green crayon that's afraid to jump off the diving board and wallows in the shallow end

because he's afraid that if he ventures out into the deep end he may realize that he actually can't swim and can barely can tread water ! 


Psst, I think you meant to say clubs at tier 5....   just saying....



SimplyPzB2 #19 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:40

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View Postjsn87xi76slk92mc802d7sk1, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:38, said:

cant you tell when you are being ignored?


Please keep telling me I'm right.  Every time you post a non-comment is like a +1 for me.  Having ZERO argument just shows everyone you know I'm right...



SawUcomin #20 Posted Jul 16 2019 - 06:43

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View PostSimplyPzB2, on Jul 16 2019 - 06:39, said:


Psst, I think you meant to say clubs at tier 5....   just saying....

Thanks! I hit the wrong key.






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