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Stop telling Tier 8 Premium Tanks to Tier 3 Players.


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Hellsfog #41 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 19:02

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View PostRHeadshot, on Aug 12 2019 - 15:33, said:

They didn't exist until a few years later

 

You're simply wrong. Sorry. You've only been here since 2018 so how would you know anyway.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:


"shown by data that MM is random in regards to skill"....alllllll....righty then. Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability. Game is clearly anything but random. Explain all the blowout battles. Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests. Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage. Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it. NA server is so sparse in player numbers it's pathetic. Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return. You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise so you attack the very people that know the truth. The only thing that will save game from being no more in NA is SBMM. But that will never happen. Game is designed on imbalance, and short battles. SBMM would make battles to fair, and that simply will not do. "Are you daft?"........Let me axe you this: "Are you brane ded?"

You're wrong as well. Go search for forums for any posts by NeatoMan and you'll the threads were he embarrasses people who think like you do. Because you're challenged, here one of them http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/609424-when-mm-says-you-will-lose-you-will-lose/#topmost

I know you won't read it and if you do read it, won't understand it but I have to try. 

 

 

 



Copacetic #42 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 19:30

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 18:53, said:


"shown by data that MM is random in regards to skill"....alllllll....righty then. Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability. Game is clearly anything but random. Explain all the blowout battles. Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests. Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage. Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it. NA server is so sparse in player numbers it's pathetic. Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return. You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise so you attack the very people that know the truth. The only thing that will save game from being no more in NA is SBMM. But that will never happen. Game is designed on imbalance, and short battles. SBMM would make battles to fair, and that simply will not do. "Are you daft?"........Let me axe you this: "Are you brane ded?"

I know plenty about probability and I have seen the data. Which is why I can say game is random with regards to skill. It's working as WG intends and advertises. If you don't like it you can roll it up and sit on it, but MM isn't rigged.



Ken_McGuire #43 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 20:27

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability.

 

Perhaps I have missed it, but I have never seen you post any statistically relevant evidence.

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Game is clearly anything but random. Explain all the blowout battles. Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests. Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage.

 

I fail to see how any of these points prove that it is not random.

 

The blowouts I see usually happen because one side wins a flank because of either an overmatch fast, or loses it by pushing into TD's that rip them up fast. This frees the surviving tanks to easily engineer an overmatch everywhere else on the map. You can criticize this game design, but it is the way just about every game goes when players only have a single life. When done efficiently, this leads to a three minute slaughterfest.

 

As for a few people doing the vast majority of the damage, every study I have seen about combat shows that the vast majority of the forces are usually ineffective, with the majority of the killing coming from a remarkably small fraction of "killers". Much of this is because of situational awareness. Some is because of Physiological reaction time. Some is different reactions to the stress of combat. Admittedly this game is an arcade shooter more than a realistic simulator, but many of these factors are still real, which results in some players being quite good, a lot of players being quite bad, and some of us in the middle who can take advantage of some situations, but are not really reliable.

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it. NA server is so sparse in player numbers it's pathetic.

 

World of Tank is definitely in decline, at least on the NA server. But I have generally not had a problem getting battles - unlike what I see on SEA server streams. So I would not call it pathetic. A concern, sure. Something that I hope Wargaming is working on managing, definitely. But we are not to pathetic yet.

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return.

 

You base this statement on what kind of research with new players that quit? Or are you just spouting off your frustrations? Yes, good players can use their knowledge of game mechanics to cause a lot of frustration to those who don't - and new players generally will not. This may feel like rigging, but is it really?

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise so you attack the very people that know the truth.

 

Complains about ad hominem attacks by using an ad hominem attack...  May be psychologically effective in a debate, but is still a logical fallacy.

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

The only thing that will save game from being no more in NA is SBMM. But that will never happen. Game is designed on imbalance, and short battles. SBMM would make battles to fair, and that simply will not do.

 

Skill based MM would push player win rates closer to the same. It would make each battle closer to 50/50 as to which team will win. Is this too fair? Well - every sporting event I see has players or teams that are consistently more effective than other teams. Yeah, that makes a lot of people hate the NE Patriots, NY Yankees, or Golden State Warriors... But is it fair for someone to say that all the money and work these organizations have done to get their results is unfair, and so in random pick-up games there be an added rule making sure that they never play together?

 

Yes, the game is designed to allow players to take advantage of imbalances. HT's are free to use their armor and hit point advantage to win. MT's are free to use their dpm and mobilty to win. And good players are allowed to use their knowledge of the game maps, their situational awareness, and their reaction times to win. Is this not what free competition, which is  something most of our cultures greatly value, would want? I for one do not want SBMM welfare for my win rate.

 

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Let me axe you this: "Are you brane ded?"

 

Ad hominem attack on other side's intelligence - while misspelling three words in nine....



Pipinghot #44 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 05:28

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

View PostCopacetic, on Aug 13 2019 - 14:59, said:

Dude it's already been shown by data MM is random in regards to skill. Are you daft?

"shown by data that MM is random in regards to skill"....alllllll....righty then. Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability.

Take your own advice, you lack of understanding of both statistics and probability are appalling, doubly so for someone who makes a pretense of expertise.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Game is clearly anything but random.

False.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Explain all the blowout battles.

Has been done many times, you would rather be angry than to learn.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests.

Has been done many times, you would rather be angry than to learn.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage.

Combination of single death + random skill distribution. Life stinks when you die from a mistake and can't respawn, even purple players have zero damage games once in a while.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it.

The things you complain about have been part of the game from the very beginning. Those game mechanics and game elements were part of the game when it was becoming "great", and they're still there now.

 

The game is 8+ years old, all games lose some population as they get older. Lower population is not the same thing as "dying", there have been people saying that the game is "dying" since the very beginning, all of them have been wrong so far. To this day you can still player Everquest. What you call "dying" is nothing more than the life cycle of a game.

 

And even then, the NA server is not the most important server for the game. RU, EU and China are all more important than NA, even if NA shut down tomorrow WoT would be in business for years to come. Gaming is global, NA is not nearly as important as you think it is.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return.

Lots of people don't like pure PvP games, that's not unique to WoT. Lots and lots of people want their games to be less difficult.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise

Yeah... no, you're still not psychic.

View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 12:53, said:

so you attack the very people that know the truth.

Whereas you argue like a flat earther or a moon landing denier, no amount of facts is ever enough to help you learn that your "truth" is nonsense.


Edited by Pipinghot, Aug 14 2019 - 05:29.


VooDooKobra #45 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 05:51

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 13 2019 - 10:53, said:


"shown by data that MM is random in regards to skill"....alllllll....righty then. Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability. Game is clearly anything but random. Explain all the blowout battles. Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests. Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage. Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it. NA server is so sparse in player numbers it's pathetic. Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return. You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise so you attack the very people that know the truth. The only thing that will save game from being no more in NA is SBMM. But that will never happen. Game is designed on imbalance, and short battles. SBMM would make battles to fair, and that simply will not do. "Are you daft?"........Let me axe you this: "Are you brane ded?"

Let me axe you this, if WG was going to rig matches.  There would be no sense financially to make the game more frustrating.  If close games are preferred then wouldn't they make more money rigging them to be close games?  People feel good about close games and spend money.      As for your truth, convince me, share your truth



SawUcomin #46 Posted Aug 17 2019 - 21:08

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View PostSlone, on Aug 11 2019 - 23:57, said:

So, as a business, WG should tell a customer 'NO, you are not allowed to give us $50'? You think this is a good idea? You think this is a good way to run a business?

 

:facepalm:


Yes, that's exactly it!

For the good of a business you don't ruin the business for any and all sales

They don't let inexperienced players play in the NHL just because the can afford CCM Tacks 9070 or Baur X700

They have levels of game play based on skill and not what equipment they own or have

Players start at Initiation(Can) or Mini-mite(USA) then they progress to Novice (Can) or Mite (USA) and work their way up as their skills/experience progress.

>>Atom/squirt , Peewee/  Bantam/ ,Midget/Minor Midget , Junior/Major Midget, C, B, A, AA, AAA  ect. etc....Until they gain the skills and experience required to further them.

War Gaming made a serious mistake when it pushed the sale of premium tanks to players that had no experience or insufficient experience

and therefore ruined and continue to ruin the quality of games for ALL players!

Players should not have been allowed to buy a premium at any level unless they had elited a tech tree tank from the preceding level.

Then and only then should they have been able to unlock the sales of tanks in those tiers.

The game has turned to sht because of Wot inability to understand that flooding top tier matches with inexperienced players has been a bad move.

Had they provided premium tanks for sale at all levels or tiers they could have made more money while improving the quality of matches and overall enjoyment of the game for everyone

But I guess there will always be some that like and enjoy being the bully and the feeling of unearned dominance over others

Those that batter their wives and girlfriends and those that steal little kids Halloween candy bags for example.

 I guess with your analogy Liquor stores should sell to anyone who has a few dollars in their pocket as well?

Sometimes good business sense isn't always about the quick sale but a long term goal and vision!

Something War Gaming lacks and now this game is suffering because of. 

 


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 18 2019 - 10:01.


VooDooKobra #47 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 01:12

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 17 2019 - 13:08, said:


Yes, that's exactly it!

For the good of a business you don't ruin the business for any and all sales

They don't let inexperienced players play in the NHL just because the can afford CCM Tacks 9070 or Baur X700

They have levels of game play based on skill and not what equipment they own or have

Players start at Initiation(Can) or Mini-mite(USA) then they progress to Novice (Can) or Mite (USA) and work their way up as their skills/experience progress.

>>Atom/squirt , Peewee/  Bantam/ ,Midget/Minor Midget , Junior/Major Midget, C, B, A, AA, AAA  ect. etc....Until they gain the skills and experience required to further them.

War Gaming made a serious mistake when it pushed the sale of premium tanks to players that had no experience or insufficient experience

and therefore ruined and continue to ruin the quality of games for ALL players!

Players should not have been allowed to buy a premium at any level unless they had elited a tech tree tank from the preceding level.

Then and only then should they have been able to unlock the sales of tanks in those tiers.

The game has turned to sht because of Wot inability to understand that flooding top tier matches with inexperienced players has been a bad move.

Had they provided premium tanks for sale at all levels or tiers They could have mad more money while improving the quality of matches and overall enjoyment of the game for everyone

But I guess there will always be some that like and enjoy being the bully and the feeling of unearned dominance over others

Those that batter their wives and girlfriends and those that steal little kids Halloween candy bags for example.

 I guess with your analogy Liquor stores should sell to anyone who has a few dollars in their pocket as well?

Sometimes good business sense isn't always about the quick sale but a long term goal and vision!

Something War Gaming lacks and now this game is suffering because of. 

 

why is professional sports even an argument?  there is zero about a professional sport that would be a relevant comparison.  yep you are right they dont let just anyone play in the NHL, the NFL or any other professional league.  Each tier of players in those leagues are selected from the previous level.  wg does not have that system so again what professional sports do is really irrelevant.  if anything wot is more like community league games or even beer league where there is no requirement of being good.

 

no game is going to ever limit sales the way you want ever, it becomes impossible to close that gate after selling high tier tanks as pre order.  this has zero to do with being a bully and i find your battered spouse comparison utterly disgusting and you should be embarrassed for it.  that is a garbage argument.  almost as bad is your liquor store argument.  



SawUcomin #48 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 05:17

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 18 2019 - 01:12, said:

why is professional sports even an argument?  there is zero about a professional sport that would be a relevant comparison.  yep you are right they dont let just anyone play in the NHL, the NFL or any other professional league.  Each tier of players in those leagues are selected from the previous level.  wg does not have that system so again what professional sports do is really irrelevant.  if anything wot is more like community league games or even beer league where there is no requirement of being good.

 

no game is going to ever limit sales the way you want ever, it becomes impossible to close that gate after selling high tier tanks as pre order.  this has zero to do with being a bully and i find your battered spouse comparison utterly disgusting and you should be embarrassed for it.  that is a garbage argument.  almost as bad is your liquor store argument.  


The reason it is relevant to the discussion is because "Sloane" stated as a business they should accept the money regardless of the outcome..and Hockey is a business, as is Golf or any other sport.

My comments are merely pointing out that any business should not accept money at the detriment of the game whether its professional, minor, pub league, community, esports or what have you.

As for the comment regarding being a bully, you need you lighten up and take it for its intensions

Some players relish inexperienced noobs in tier 8 premiums because they can bully them around or take advantage of them

This mindset is in comparison to men bullying fragile women because they are bigger and stronger or as many put it seal clubbing

I have just used a stronger comparison

FYI, many find the term "Seal clubbing" to be equally as offensive, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

I don't condone either!

And I don't embarrass over anything at this age as I really don't give 2 shts if someone is offended in this day and age as that's their (your) problem.

welcome to the 21st century.

And no its not to late to stop this practice as their are many new players entering the game all the time and once you stop this trend

it will have an immediate effect on the game quality.

Those that have them will get better and it will take some time for those that are new to enter into tier 8 and by that time the quality of the remaining will have improved significantly.

The watering down of the talent pool tier 8 will stop and games will improve gradually but continually


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 18 2019 - 05:38.


Pipinghot #49 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 05:37

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 17 2019 - 15:08, said:

View PostSlone, on Aug 11 2019 - 23:57, said:

So, as a business, WG should tell a customer 'NO, you are not allowed to give us $50'? You think this is a good idea? You think this is a good way to run a business?

They don't let inexperienced players play in the NHL just because the can afford CCM Tacks 9070 or Baur X700

The NHL is not "Random" games, you analogy is lame. Inexperienced players don't get to play Clan Wars, that is closest thing WoT has to the NHL.



VooDooKobra #50 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 07:00

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 17 2019 - 21:17, said:


The reason it is relevant to the discussion is because "Sloane" stated as a business they should accept the money regardless of the outcome..and Hockey is a business, as is Golf or any other sport.

My comments are merely pointing out that any business should not accept money at the detriment of the game whether its professional, minor, pub league, community, esports or what have you.

As for the comment regarding being a bully, you need you lighten up and take it for its intensions

Some players relish inexperienced noobs in tier 8 premiums because they can bully them around or take advantage of them

This mindset is in comparison to men bullying fragile women because they are bigger and stronger or as many put it seal clubbing

I have just used a stronger comparison

FYI, many find the term "Seal clubbing" to be equally as offensive, so no need to get your panties all wadded up.

I don't condone either!

And I don't embarrass over anything at this age as I really don't give 2 shts if someone is offended in this day and age as that's their (your) problem.

welcome to the 21st century.

And no its not to late to stop this practice as their are many new players entering the game all the time and once you stop this trend

it will have an immediate effect on the game quality.

Those that have them will get better and it will take some time for those that are new to enter into tier 8 and by that time the quality of the remaining will have improved significantly.

The watering down of the talent pool tier 8 will stop and games will improve gradually but continually

this has nothing to do with being offended or getting panties in a bunch and the fact you feel its ok to equate domestic violence and bullying with you not liking people buying what they want in a game store says more about you as a person

 

 



SawUcomin #51 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 09:29

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View PostPipinghot, on Aug 18 2019 - 05:37, said:

The NHL is not "Random" games, you analogy is lame. Inexperienced players don't get to play Clan Wars, that is closest thing WoT has to the NHL.


The topic is "Stop selling tier 8 premiums tanks to tier 3 players!"

You are deflecting off the topic and the reason why this game and the quality of upper tier games is/has gone to sht.

My analogy is spot on and dictates how this game should progress from learning at tier 1, as inexperienced players, to what should be

the best tanks at high skillset matches.

Not some BS ideology that everyone has the right to buy anything and start playing at whatever level they want.

Any attempt to justify this is exactly why this game and the quality of it has been beating a path into oblivion 

40K players or more on a good night to less than half that.

Yes many games lost players through natural attrition, but a good many have left this game before they wanted to because of inept management decisions, inconsistent enforcement of policies and a lack of understanding or dismissal of player concerns.

But I guess some players would rather have less challenging matches beating up against half a team of inexperienced noobs playing in tanks and tiers far above their skill level as opposed to a far more exciting, teeth grinding, wow that was a really great game.

 

 


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 18 2019 - 10:33.


SawUcomin #52 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 09:47

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 18 2019 - 07:00, said:

this has nothing to do with being offended or getting panties in a bunch and the fact you feel its ok to equate domestic violence and bullying with you not liking people buying what they want in a game store says more about you as a person

 

 


That's not what I said 

I equate it to the reason some players condone the sale of premiums to inexperienced players is so they can be bullies and beat up on players with far less skill than them as they lack the experience or ability to defend themselves.

(as in a twisted sense of control and power over others)

And its not buying what they want that is even relevant, its allowing players with little or no experience a way to disrupt and reduce the quality of upper tier game play because their only ticket for admission to do so, is with money.

Not allowing players to purchase tanks early is not necessarily a lost sale, its just defraying it until a later date.

There could be premium tanks available at every tier (after they unlocked or elited a tank from the preceding tier) this would increase sales and greatly aid in the development of each players skills as they progressed through the tiers

But go ahead and try to detract from the topic, the point is that the games at upper tiers would be far more challenging, there would be less blow outs, and players would be sticking around.

And I don't need to provide proof of this as its continually pointed out in numerous places throughout the forums just like the OP and many more have  pointed out.

But go ahead and keep defending War Gaming, you reap what you sow!

If watered down 4 minute one sided blowouts, combined with crappy lower skillset players and less challenging high tier games is what amuses you, then this is exactly what you are getting and will continue to receive.


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 18 2019 - 10:36.


rogueluke #53 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 14:41

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 12 2019 - 00:16, said:

 

Unskilled players are more likely to die early than are skilled players (no honest person can deny this painfully obvious fact)  Thus the more unskilled players on a team the more likely that team is going to lose players early and start the steamroll. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. It's not some bizarre coincidence that grossly mismatched battles go to the better team the vast majority of the time.

it also has a lot to do with matchmaking.

team with faster tanks can get to choke points faster and hold them while the slower team gets picked off 1 by 1.  

then you have poor deployment.  

no amount of skill is going to allow 2 players to hold a lane very long vs 6-7.

team gets flanked it will be a steam roll.

 

 



rogueluke #54 Posted Aug 18 2019 - 14:55

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 08:47, said:


That's not what I said 

I equate it to the reason some players condone the sale of premiums to inexperienced players is so they can be bullies and beat up on players with far less skill than them as they lack the experience or ability to defend themselves.

(as in a twisted sense of control and power over others)

And its not buying what they want that is even relevant, its allowing players with little or no experience a way to disrupt and reduce the quality of upper tier game play because their only ticket for admission to do so, is with money.

Not allowing players to purchase tanks early is not necessarily a lost sale, its just defraying it until a later date.

There could be premium tanks available at every tier (after they unlocked or elited a tank from the preceding tier) this would increase sales and greatly aid in the development of each players skills as they progressed through the tiers

But go ahead and try to detract from the topic, the point is that the games at upper tiers would be far more challenging, there would be less blow outs, and players would be sticking around.

And I don't need to provide proof of this as its continually pointed out in numerous places throughout the forums just like the OP and many more have  pointed out.

But go ahead and keep defending War Gaming, you reap what you sow!

If watered down 4 minute one sided blowouts, combined with crappy lower skillset players and less challenging high tier games is what amuses you, then this is exactly what you are getting and will continue to receive.

how do you explain the blow out games that happen at tier 9 and 10?

 

 



SawUcomin #55 Posted Aug 19 2019 - 01:36

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View Postrogueluke, on Aug 18 2019 - 14:55, said:

how do you explain the blow out games that happen at tier 9 and 10?

 

 


Without knowing what particular game you are referring to I cannot answer that question.

When MM pits 15 vs 15, one side could have several blues and a purp or 2 vs the other side that has several tomatoes and greens

It could be a platoon of Simp or 200IQ on one side that's almost predictable as to the outcome.

What I have seen numerous times is inexperienced players more than likely failing to look at the team loadout for both sides and the  given map selected to figure out if they should take their heavy down town or knowing if they should provide second line support for their lightes and meds even if they are top tier.

I have seen tier 9/10 games where 85% of the team pushes one flank and fails miserably and other times when the push is sucessful

There are many factors and sometimes all it takes is a crippling SPG hit that initiates an early removal of a tier 10 Med that pushes up to far.

The point of the OP topic is the corruption of tier 8 and how it affects the game when they are commandeered by very inexperienced players

that have no experience and, imo, no business playing at a tier level they are unprepared for because they lack knowledge of game mechanics, maps, vehicles strengths and weaknesses tactics etc. etc.

 


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 19 2019 - 05:49.


Pipinghot #56 Posted Aug 19 2019 - 01:51

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 03:29, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 18 2019 - 05:37, said:

The NHL is not "Random" games, you analogy is lame. Inexperienced players don't get to play Clan Wars, that is closest thing WoT has to the NHL.

The topic is "Stop selling tier 8 premiums tanks to tier 3 players!"

That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about your post in the context of the OP.

 

So, with that in mind... Tier VIII is still not the NHL, that would be clan wars. It's not even college, that would be Skirmishes and other team modes. If you stretch the comparison Random battles might be comparable to high school, except for the fact that high school games are organized leagues made up of players who train together and play together every week, even at the high school level they are orgnized leagues with players that are specifically selected by the coaches (as much as they can). Any comparison of random battles to any organized structural system is going to be a weak analogy, because Random battles are not an organized league by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Random battles are more like going down to the local park and joining pick-up games with a bunch of random strangers. And when a person is playing pick-up games, it's up to them to know their limits. When a person is trying to play above their head they should know in advance that they're not going to do well, it's just common sense. If you go down to the park and join a game of pick-up football, then you have no control over your opponents, no control over the quality of the other players, and if you get stuck trying to play against someone better than you well that's just too bad, you play or you leave.

View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 03:29, said:

You are deflecting off the topic and the reason why this game and the quality of upper tier games is/has gone to sht.

That's not true, upper tier games have always had lots of new and inexperienced players, people have been complaining about Tier VIII prem tanks since almost the very beginning of the game, there's nothing new about it.

View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 03:29, said:

Not some BS ideology that everyone has the right to buy anything and start playing at whatever level they want.

You can call it BS all you want, but it's a F2P game and that's pretty much how all of them do it. F2P games have discovered that putting content behind a pay wall or behind a skill wall is bad for their game. You might not like it, I might not like it, but the bottom line is that limiting players like you want them to do is bad for their bottom line.

View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 03:29, said:

Any attempt to justify this is exactly why this game and the quality of it has been beating a path into oblivion

Sure... just like it was "beating a path into oblivion" in 2011 because of Tier VIII prems, and "beating a path into oblivion" in 2012 because of Tier VIII prems, and in 2013, and in 2014...

 

The game is aging, and like all aging games it's losing population, but it's a long way off from even the NA server shutting down, much less the RU and China servers, and there's no way that you can rationally argue that Tier VIII prem tanks are the primary cause of this decline.

 

This is a F2P game, and like almost every other F2P game the best choice is to support player choice, that's how they make money.



SawUcomin #57 Posted Aug 19 2019 - 04:45

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View PostPipinghot, on Aug 19 2019 - 01:51, said:

That's a fair point, I wasn't thinking about your post in the context of the OP.

 

So, with that in mind... Tier VIII is still not the NHL, that would be clan wars. It's not even college, that would be Skirmishes and other team modes. If you stretch the comparison Random battles might be comparable to high school, except for the fact that high school games are organized leagues made up of players who train together and play together every week, even at the high school level they are orgnized leagues with players that are specifically selected by the coaches (as much as they can). Any comparison of random battles to any organized structural system is going to be a weak analogy, because Random battles are not an organized league by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Random battles are more like going down to the local park and joining pick-up games with a bunch of random strangers. And when a person is playing pick-up games, it's up to them to know their limits. When a person is trying to play above their head they should know in advance that they're not going to do well, it's just common sense. If you go down to the park and join a game of pick-up football, then you have no control over your opponents, no control over the quality of the other players, and if you get stuck trying to play against someone better than you well that's just too bad, you play or you leave.

That's not true, upper tier games have always had lots of new and inexperienced players, people have been complaining about Tier VIII prem tanks since almost the very beginning of the game, there's nothing new about it.

You can call it BS all you want, but it's a F2P game and that's pretty much how all of them do it. F2P games have discovered that putting content behind a pay wall or behind a skill wall is bad for their game. You might not like it, I might not like it, but the bottom line is that limiting players like you want them to do is bad for their bottom line.

Sure... just like it was "beating a path into oblivion" in 2011 because of Tier VIII prems, and "beating a path into oblivion" in 2012 because of Tier VIII prems, and in 2013, and in 2014...

 

The game is aging, and like all aging games it's losing population, but it's a long way off from even the NA server shutting down, much less the RU and China servers, and there's no way that you can rationally argue that Tier VIII prem tanks are the primary cause of this decline.

 

This is a F2P game, and like almost every other F2P game the best choice is to support player choice, that's how they make money.


You can justify the rational all you want but the fact remains that WG is making decisions that are prematurely driving players away from this game and I'm one of them.

As I said their decision to sell copious premiums at tier may look like its their golden egg but there is/are other ways to generate this income while improving the quality of

the upper tier matches.

They could have easily offered a free tier 2, 3 and 4 premium for eliting a tech tree tank at tier one and 2 and so one and then putting a reasonable price for each prem tank in a line up and showing the players whats available to them as they have elited a tank at each tier.

A screen pop up displaying all the premium tanks available for their purchase (sort of how dog tags pop up at the end of your battle now)

I also don't think this game is going to die a quick death, but it certainly is sliding and I would guess more than half that have left is because of bad policies and management.

I also think the exodus has been more prevalent in the last 2 or 3 years

And I was not the one who said it was dyeing in 2011, 2012 or any other year although there were a few that stated this for the last few years.

And it seems to me that the biggest issues were around SPG's and their one hit annihilations that generated this 

But there is no denying it has dropped and I believe WG attempt to attract newer players has been a failure because they have disregarded the feed back regarding many changes

and implemented several with minimal or no consultation or input from the player base even though its certainly their prerogative.

As for supporting player choice. Its only a choice if and when it is offered. 

I would be curious to know whether EU and RU have been losing its "aging" player base as proportionally as the NA


Edited by SawUcomin, Aug 20 2019 - 01:49.


nrnstraswa #58 Posted Aug 19 2019 - 16:44

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Perhaps the recent flood of rentals from the Prime giveaways have also contributed to the growing number of newer players in tier 8s. Are you saying now people would be blocked off from using rentals due to low battle count? 

Edited by nrnstraswa, Aug 19 2019 - 16:45.


Pipinghot #59 Posted Aug 20 2019 - 00:25

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View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 22:45, said:

You can justify the rational all you want but the fact remains that WG is making decisions that are prematurely driving players away from this game and I'm one of them.

You can try to justify your imaginary predictions all you want, but the fact remains that they've been selling Tier VIII prems since 2011, which included the time period when the game was growing like gangbusters. If Tier VIII prems were going to kill the game they would have done it a long time ago. I'm not suggesting in any way that you have to like Tier VIII prems, you are entitled to your personal preferences, but you're not entitled to your own personal facts. Tier VIII prems have been in this game for 8 years now, there is no way you can make a valid argument that Tier VIII prems are killing the game.

View PostSawUcomin, on Aug 18 2019 - 22:45, said:

They could have easily offered a free tier 2, 3 and 4 premium for eliting a tech tree tank at tier one and 2 and so one and then putting a reasonable price for each prem tank in a line up and showing the players whats available to them as they have elited a tank at each tier.

YOU KNOW WHAT THAT's... a good idea, like really good. I have to hand it to you, this is the first time in almost 8 years of watching people complain about Tier VIII prems that I've seen someone come up with an idea that improves on the existing system while allowing WG to continue to reap the (financial) benefits of their current system. So, regardless of anything else we've argued about, kudos and a /salute and a +1 to you for coming up with (what I believe is) an original idea that would truly make the game better for everyone.

 

For what it's worth, this probably wouldn't have been a usable idea 6-8 years ago, when there were very few premium tanks at lower levels, which in turn means that WG would not have given them away at that time. If someone had suggested this 6 years ago it would have been a non-starter. But over the years they've given away a bunch of Tier II and III prems, and even had some giveaways for Tier IV, V and VI prems, which means that the game has reached a point where your idea would work very well with the current state of the game.

 

So now here's my suggestion to you - make this a suggestion (in a new thread) without getting bogged down in all of that talk about Tier VIII tanks "ruining" or "killing" the game. That stuff is all untrue, and it has nothing to do with the merits of your idea. Your idea is good, and it stands on its own two feet without needing to make false arguments about how Tier VIII prems are "killing" the game. Your own idea is being held back by the false and bad arguments you're using to support it. Just make the suggestion, make it clean, don't get bogged down in a bunch of tangents that detract from the presentation of your idea.

 

It might be reasonable to mention how Tier VIII prems have always been a point of contention among the player base, and how allowing new players jump into Tier VIII prems before they're ready might discourage them from enjoying the game, but don't waste your time claiming that Tier VIII prems are "killing" anything, all that would do is invite people to disagree with you without seeing the merits of your idea.

 

I sincerely hope you repost this idea in a separate thread, and provide a framework for the suggestion that will allow everyone to see the merits of your idea without getting bogged down in arguments that are all tangents.


Edited by Pipinghot, Aug 20 2019 - 22:32.


WrecktOmWrecker #60 Posted Aug 20 2019 - 00:46

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View PostPanzerjager72, on Aug 11 2019 - 23:39, said:

I've noticed a flood of players lately who have no idea what to do at tier 8 causing 1-15 steamrolls for teams. It's making your already crap MM even worse. 

 

What you are doing essentially is putting Little League Baseball players in Minor League play. 

 

Have some kind of system where they have to do certain missions to learn their tanks or rating before they can progress to the next level. 

 

I made the same mistake when I was given a Tier 8 Premium tank that I had no business playing in tier 8 battles.


The title of this made me laugh. :popcorn:






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