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Stop telling Tier 8 Premium Tanks to Tier 3 Players.


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thehelmsman #21 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 03:20

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Git gud and farm all the exp off those tier 3 players driving tier 8 tanks?

--Helms

Slone #22 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 03:28

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Aug 11 2019 - 20:03, said:

Its a good way to keep veteran players around and keep the game alive for long-term. 

 

Veteran players are the ones who reroll, and T8 Premies are a key to rerolling.



Pipinghot #23 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 04:28

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 11 2019 - 19:16, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 11 2019 - 18:01, said:

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Unskilled players are more likely to die early than are skilled players (no honest person can deny this painfully obvious fact)

That's true. Apparently it hasn't occurred to you that both teams can have unskilled players.

 

Even when teams are evenly balanced, with all skilled players, there are lots of steamrolls. 8 years of Clan Wars has proven that this is true, as well as the data that has been collected and reviewed by players. Player skill is not what causes steamrolls.

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 11 2019 - 19:16, said:

Thus the more unskilled players on a team the more likely that team is going to lose players early and start the steamroll.

Also true, and again most battles have a pretty good balance of unskilled players. Despite what some people think, in most battles the game does not load up one team with a bunch of unskilled players. Even when the teams are well balanced there are still a lot of steamrolls, and that is because the single largest cause by far of steamrolls single-death-per-battle.

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 11 2019 - 19:16, said:

It's not some bizarre coincidence that grossly mismatched battles go to the better team the vast majority of the time.

Yes, they usually go to the better team the majority of the time, just like happens in any other game, but that does not mean this is what causes steamrolls.

 

Chance to win and margin of victory are not the same thing, too many people have a hard time understanding that concept.



Pipinghot #24 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 04:35

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View PostRHeadshot, on Aug 11 2019 - 20:18, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 12 2019 - 01:01, said:

2011 just called, they want you to stop stealing their complains about Tier VIII premium tanks.

 

Translation: What you want will never happen, it's been part of the game since the very beginning.

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Random = random. If you don't understand that it's your issue.

There weren't tier 8 premiums in 2011.  Maybe you should get your facts straight when you're trying to be a snarky jerk.

You should make sure you have your facts straight before you accuse people of not having their facts straight.

 

<insert snarky comment of your choice here>

 

Patch 0.6.4,

"• Added new vehicles: premium heavy Lowe and KV-5"

http://forum.worldof...ks-v064-update/

https://worldoftanks...place_tomorrow/

 


Edited by Pipinghot, Aug 12 2019 - 04:43.


Mojo_Riesing #25 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 04:50

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View PostPanzerjager72, on Aug 11 2019 - 14:39, said:

I've noticed a flood of players lately who have no idea what to do at tier 8 causing 1-15 steamrolls for teams. It's making your already crap MM even worse. 

What you are doing essentially is putting Little League Baseball players in Minor League play. 

Have some kind of system where they have to do certain missions to learn their tanks or rating before they can progress to the next level. 

I made the same mistake when I was given a Tier 8 Premium tank that I had no business playing in tier 8 battles.

 

I don't think "new" players cause steamrolls. Mis-match of skill levels, actually NO attempt to match skill levels is why SOME games steamroll. (i never hear about folks complaining about BEING the Steamroller...only when they are the steamROLLED).  WG has been clear, skill MM ain't gonna happen. SO..that's life bub.

 

View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 11 2019 - 16:45, said:

since no pvp game  will ever put in skill blocks to stop players from advancing, this is what you get when you have an xp based system of advancement

 

A PvP element might draw players away from Randoms...many but not just "newer" or "unskilled"...not sure anyone REALLy knows yet on that.  Yes, WG kind of built this house where success leads to advancement, leads to success (in part because you waffle-stomp the less skilled), which beget more success and then...ut oh, you hit the top. Now what? Game over man...game over.  Truth is, higher tier, higher skill level players are inherently a diminshing percent of total numbers. In a smaller pond, like the NA server..i see how that can be a problem.  It's kind of a "Peter Principle" for gaming. 

 

View PostJakeTheMystic, on Aug 11 2019 - 17:03, said:

Its a good way to keep veteran players around and keep the game alive for long-term. 

Sure they can make a quick buck by selling the newest and greatest OP premium, but they are going to get diminishing returns when all of the better players leave and find a better game to play. 

 

I'm not sure you have this exactly right.  Diminishing returns are part of it, but bringing in NEW players (however you can) isn't the problem or really the solution for higher tier/skill angst.  They hit the top, are FORCED to play with those they find not very challenging (after RISING by meeting challenges).  Basically you reach a point at Tier X where....there's not a damn new thing you can do that meets the rush you got getting to this point.  Could be why Clan Wars changes all the time, though looks more like a shell game than a solution to me.  

 

No, do not fall to the conceit the game needs highly skilled players to survive, i know folks like that think they are important but it's who plops down the VISA card  that is.  The game an needs influx of NEW players ready to spend real world money to survive.  That's just business.


Edited by Mojo_Riesing, Aug 12 2019 - 04:51.


VooDooKobra #26 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 05:06

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Aug 11 2019 - 20:50, said:

 

I

 

A PvP element might draw players away from Randoms...many but not just "newer" or "unskilled"...not sure anyone REALLy knows yet on that.  Yes, WG kind of built this house where success leads to advancement, leads to success (in part because you waffle-stomp the less skilled), which beget more success and then...ut oh, you hit the top. Now what? Game over man...game over.  Truth is, higher tier, higher skill level players are inherently a diminshing percent of total numbers. In a smaller pond, like the NA server..i see how that can be a problem.  It's kind of a "Peter Principle" for gaming. 

 

 

 

that is true, i believe that putting in any mechanic that is essecially a skill roadblock would do more damage than good when people who are unable to advance past a certain tier would quit and find something else they can play



mlinke #27 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 06:11

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A lot of people on the road should not have cars too but what can you do

Machisman #28 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 15:55

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View PostPipinghot, on Aug 11 2019 - 18:01, said:

2011 just called, they want you to stop stealing their complains about Tier VIII premium tanks.

 

Translation: What you want will never happen, it's been part of the game since the very beginning.

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Random = random. If you don't understand that it's your issue.

Random = random. If you don't understand that it's your issue.???/? Nice one. However why do you allow platoon in Random battles. Let it be completely random. There are more 45% platoons than average and good player platoon. Game is trash now. 



the_dude_76 #29 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 16:16

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View PostPipinghot, on Aug 11 2019 - 21:28, said:

Even when teams are evenly balanced, with all skilled players, there are lots of steamrolls. 

 

 I never claimed or remotely implied that a steam roll can't happen with evenly matched teams, here you go with the digression again...

 

Block Quote

Also true, and again most battles have a pretty good balance of unskilled players. Despite what some people think, in most battles the game does not load up one team with a bunch of unskilled players. 

 

Again, I don't see where I've implied anything of the sort.

 

Block Quote

 

Even when the teams are well balanced there are still a lot of steamrolls, and that is because the single largest cause by far of steamrolls single-death-per-battle.

 

Have I argued against this?? Again, no. More digression...

 

Block Quote

 Yes, they usually go to the better team the majority of the time, just like happens in any other game, but that does not mean this is what causes steamrolls.

 

Did I say they "caused" steam rolls?? I don't think so...

 

My point, which you've conveniently ignored, is that with grossly mismatched teams a steam roll is more likely and it is almost certainly going to go to the better team. If the teams are fairly evenly matched then there is no reason to be upset by the fact that your team got steam rolled. Do better next time and carry harder. But when you're on a team that can only win if the other team screws up massively, people are eventually going to get tired of it. 

 

Random MM provides a built in advantage for better than average players because the better you are the lesser the odds that you'll be matched against similar or better opposition. I get why better than average players don't want to give up that advantage. What I don't get is the lame excuses they come up with because they don't want to admit that they don't want to lose that advantage. The fact that it is an advantage that they can claim was earned by taking the time and effort to become a better player makes it doubly ridiculous...

 



RHeadshot #30 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 21:33

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View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 12 2019 - 02:44, said:

 the lowe, the kv5, the T34, the type 59 (until patch 7.2) disagree with that statement and for funzies lets throw in the mutant

They didn't exist until a few years later

 



cthulhu_hunter #31 Posted Aug 12 2019 - 23:25

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View PostPipinghot, on Aug 12 2019 - 00:01, said:

2011 just called, they want you to stop stealing their complains about Tier VIII premium tanks.

 

Translation: What you want will never happen, it's been part of the game since the very beginning.

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Random = random. If you don't understand that it's your issue.


Random = random......ROFL, wow, just wow. This clown thinks MM is just like tossing coins in the air. Educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about p-values. Open your mind, and get a clue. Players like this joker will do anything, say anything to try and convince others that game is not intentionally rigged. Steamrolls are due to crap MM. MM puts bad team vs better team to make battles as short as possible. Why? Simple. Can be explained in one character      $



VooDooKobra #32 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 05:31

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View PostRHeadshot, on Aug 12 2019 - 13:33, said:

They didn't exist until a few years later

 

Like was said earlier the kv5 and the lowe were released with patch 0.6.4 which was in2011, the type 59 was release d in patch 0.6.7.  Also in 2011 

 

Remember 0.7.0came out December 19 2011 so there is no way they came after.  You are mistaken



Pipinghot #33 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 06:07

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View PostMachisman, on Aug 12 2019 - 09:55, said:

However why do you allow platoon in Random battles. Let it be completely random.

Because they understand that people like gaming with their friends, just like most other games.

View PostMachisman, on Aug 12 2019 - 09:55, said:

There are more 45% platoons than average and good player platoon.

Again, that's the same thing people have been saying since 2011, it's not any different now than it ever has been.



Pipinghot #34 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 06:24

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View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 12 2019 - 10:16, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 11 2019 - 21:28, said:

Even when teams are evenly balanced, with all skilled players, there are lots of steamrolls. 

 I never claimed or remotely implied that a steam roll can't happen with evenly matched teams, here you go with the digression again...

Yes, you did imply it. Your comment was in direct response to me saying, "Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls." The context of your post was in response to my existing comments about steamrolls, and therefore you did make the implication.

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 11 2019 - 19:16, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 11 2019 - 18:01, said:

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Unskilled players are more likely to die early than are skilled players (no honest person can deny this painfully obvious fact)  Thus the more unskilled players on a team the more likely that team is going to lose players early and start the steamroll. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. It's not some bizarre coincidence that grossly mismatched battles go to the better team the vast majority of the time.

That's context, and if you didn't intend to make that implication then you reply was poorly written It certainly looks like you're implying that the issue is player skill instead of single-death.

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 12 2019 - 10:16, said:

My point, which you've conveniently ignored, is that with grossly mismatched teams a steam roll is more likely and it is almost certainly going to go to the better team. If the teams are fairly evenly matched then there is no reason to be upset by the fact that your team got steam rolled. Do better next time and carry harder.

I didn't ignore anything, you didn't make this point until now. What you've just written here would have been a much better replay that what you wrote before. You've provided additional context that was lacking from your previous post.

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 12 2019 - 10:16, said:

But when you're on a team that can only win if the other team screws up massively, people are eventually going to get tired of it.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, what do you consider "grossly" mismatched? The battles that I think are "grossly" miss matched are pretty darned rare and there's no reason for anyone to complain about being tired of them. Having said that, it may not be the same percentage of battles that you think qualify. Rather than go back and forth over something that could be quantified, what odds of winning do you think fall into the bucket of being "grossly mismatched"?

View Postthe_dude_76, on Aug 12 2019 - 10:16, said:

Random MM provides a built in advantage for better than average players because the better you are the lesser the odds that you'll be matched against similar or better opposition. I get why better than average players don't want to give up that advantage. What I don't get is the lame excuses they come up with because they don't want to admit that they don't want to lose that advantage. The fact that it is an advantage that they can claim was earned by taking the time and effort to become a better player makes it doubly ridiculous...

Clearly you should be playing a game with SBMM, where everyone has the same win rate no matter how good or bad they are, where people can go afk all time and still have an average win rate. Of course when you play that game you'll have a lower win rate than you do now, since you're a couple of points above average. But hey, if you want to have a lower win rate in exchange for having the ability to go afk during battles you certainly have a right to that preference. I hope whatever game you find next is as fun as you want it to be.

 

In the meanwhile, there are tons of people playing WoT who like actually earning their win rate rather than having it gifted to them by SBMM.



Pipinghot #35 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 06:25

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View PostRHeadshot, on Aug 12 2019 - 15:33, said:

View PostVooDooKobra, on Aug 12 2019 - 02:44, said:

 the lowe, the kv5, the T34, the type 59 (until patch 7.2) disagree with that statement and for funzies lets throw in the mutant

They didn't exist until a few years later

Wrong, you really need to read more carefully.



Pipinghot #36 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 06:28

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 12 2019 - 17:25, said:

View PostPipinghot, on Aug 12 2019 - 00:01, said:

2011 just called, they want you to stop stealing their complains about Tier VIII premium tanks.

 

Translation: What you want will never happen, it's been part of the game since the very beginning.

No. Player skill doesn't cause steamrolls, the fact that this game is single-death-per-battle causes steamrolls, at every tier, regardless of player skill.

Random = random. If you don't understand that it's your issue.

Random = random......ROFL, wow, just wow. This clown thinks MM is just like tossing coins in the air. Educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about p-values. Open your mind, and get a clue. Players like this joker will do anything, say anything to try and convince others that game is not intentionally rigged. Steamrolls are due to crap MM. MM puts bad team vs better team to make battles as short as possible. Why? Simple. Can be explained in one character      $

You would be adorable if your lack of knowledge and intellectual failures weren't so toxic. Just because you can spell statistics doesn't mean you understand it. The data is out there, if you refuse to learn from the data then you're beyond help.



VooDooKobra #37 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 07:16

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View PostHellsfog, on Aug 11 2019 - 18:52, said:

I seem to remember there being a Lowe and, in fact, it was used when CW first started cause many people didn't have tier 10s yet. I'm pretty sure I had one.

 Oh and all of those too except the T34 which I don't think was added as a premium until WG redid the american heavy line. Don't be too hard on him. He's from way back in 2018. 

 

 

 

 

After some fact checking I think you are right about the t34 and I am mistaken on that



Copacetic #38 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 15:54

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I agree but they are not going to stop selling anything to anyone.

Copacetic #39 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 15:59

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View Postcthulhu_hunter, on Aug 12 2019 - 23:25, said:


Random = random......ROFL, wow, just wow. This clown thinks MM is just like tossing coins in the air. Educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about p-values. Open your mind, and get a clue. Players like this joker will do anything, say anything to try and convince others that game is not intentionally rigged. Steamrolls are due to crap MM. MM puts bad team vs better team to make battles as short as possible. Why? Simple. Can be explained in one character      $

Dude it's already been shown by data MM is random in regards to skill. Are you daft?

 



cthulhu_hunter #40 Posted Aug 13 2019 - 18:53

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View PostCopacetic, on Aug 13 2019 - 14:59, said:

Dude it's already been shown by data MM is random in regards to skill. Are you daft?

 


"shown by data that MM is random in regards to skill"....alllllll....righty then. Please educate yourself, take a statistics class, learn about probability. Game is clearly anything but random. Explain all the blowout battles. Explain all the 3 minute slaughterfests. Explain 1, 2, and 3 of the top players getting 75% of the damage when one third of the team does zero damage. Here's the deal: this once great game is dying, we all know it. NA server is so sparse in player numbers it's pathetic. Most brand new players play for a short time, get frustrated with the rigged BS, then quit never to return. You clowns that defend this game are upset of games upcoming demise so you attack the very people that know the truth. The only thing that will save game from being no more in NA is SBMM. But that will never happen. Game is designed on imbalance, and short battles. SBMM would make battles to fair, and that simply will not do. "Are you daft?"........Let me axe you this: "Are you brane ded?"






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