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Season 12 - First Thoughts


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1984BigBrother #1 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 18:06

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Tankers,

 

The Global Map has been open for a few days and we have started Season 12.

 

Normally, I wait to get feedback until the end but since this season is a little different I wanted to get your "first thoughts".

 

Specifically, what do you think of:

 

The map and province distribution (including fireflies)

 

The rules - most importantly the division cost and limits

 

Other thoughts

 

GLHF,

 

Big



MachoMan_GroovySavage #2 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 18:25

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I think that the rule of 10 provinces is keeping people in check as far as monopolizing the entire map goes. I disagree with the very limited divisions on such a huge map. It seems as if the fights aren't happening because of the size of the map. Now the size of the map is awesome if we can have more clans fighting. All in all I think it is just ok so far.

Vic_Mackie #3 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 19:35

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View PostGroovyHoovy, on Aug 14 2019 - 18:25, said:

I think that the rule of 10 provinces is keeping people in check as far as monopolizing the entire map goes. I disagree with the very limited divisions on such a huge map. It seems as if the fights aren't happening because of the size of the map. Now the size of the map is awesome if we can have more clans fighting. All in all I think it is just ok so far.


There is literally no incentive to fight though, the opportunity cost of giving up so much gold income per day for some "good fights" is just too high and along with the high skill disparity between the clans pretty much makes fights impossible and not worthwhile. 



Zero_o7 #4 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 19:49

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I pushed extremely hard to vote for province heavy. I am happy that gold is on the map to be earned now without alliances. However not being able to truly expand without throwing your income away really sucks. It's a great time for small clans to take gold but from what I see there isn't a way to expand and fight over gold pots because you wont even get income if you take over 10 provinces. I think that rule will make this season extremely boring.

BananaCannon #5 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 19:52

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I feel that because the major areas where gold is located are somewhat isolated, we will not see very much fighting among the top clans disappointingly. The rules simply do not incentivize clans that can farm to fight, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some clans prefer a break between major campaigns. I do think there should be options for higher income for the clans that want to roam the map as well as defending, so a system that pits those opposite mindsets against each other would be better. I feel like after a week or so, the map is likely to stagnate as the strongest clans in an area reach a gold income they're happy with and draw borders with their neighbors. Most of the top clans drew lines around their goals before the season started and will be filling them in by the third or fourth day.

 

 All of the extra land does give a battleground for weaker clans to grow, and that's what's really important -- having a larger map means more people can participate and more people will. A large map is a necessity and I'm willing to accept compromises if it helps grow a new generation of clan wars players. I'm glad there is actually a nursery for mediocre clans to improve and become new challengers. If there was more incentive for the top clans to fight, too, it'd be ideal in my opinion.

 

The division and province limits seem to be working as intended, and do not even affect most starting clans. Also, everyone thought alliances were stupid, so I'm glad they're gone for now.

 

Specific Rants:

  • The clan tasks for 300 gold for 150 kills are kind of a joke. We've been laughing at the "we need to get that 2 gold!" as we hunt down tanks at the end of a battle. Either increase the rewards for the tasks to help clans who are landing, or disable them entirely to allocate a bit more into the map. If gold is such a scarce resource, maybe there can be more rewards of industrial resource instead to help clans build their strongholds, which is currently a terrible grind after the stronghold changes in patch 9.17.1 which essentially tripled the effort to reach tier X buildings.... or styles for completing a mission chain, like the old old missions.
  • Ransacks seem to be disabled, and while the decreased income over the days after the burn are annoying (they reduce the yield of the map), they do also provide an important incentive for attackers. It essentially multiplies the incentive for underdog attackers and the penalty for incumbent landowners. I think that's important for encouraging fighting, and I expected it would be enabled.


JunkaTheAdmirable #6 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 19:53

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View PostZero_o7, on Aug 14 2019 - 19:49, said:

I pushed extremely hard to vote for province heavy. I am happy that gold is on the map to be earned now without alliances. However not being able to truly expand without throwing your income away really sucks. It's a great time for small clans to take gold but from what I see there isn't a way to expand and fight over gold pots because you wont even get income if you take over 10 provinces. I think that rule will make this season extremely boring.

 

Don't mind a relaxed season after tryharding for tanks TBH.



Zero_o7 #7 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:00

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View PostJunkaTheAdmirable, on Aug 14 2019 - 13:53, said:

 

Don't mind a relaxed season after tryharding for tanks TBH.

I want to actually play the game and it feels like we would be punished for doing so since if we fight over to another gold pot we have to deal with 2 crappy province incomes instead of sitting on a ok income. I just dont see a way to expand heavily or fight over stuff. Small clans will have space this season though which is great. 



Vic_Mackie #8 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:02

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 19:52, said:

 I'm glad there is actually a nursery for mediocre clans to improve and become new challengers. If there was more incentive for the top clans to fight, too, it'd be ideal in my opinion.

 

 

LOL Trust me those clans are not going to be challenging anyone soon or in the next 10 years. That area of the map is full of middle aged dads who will have to overcome biological limitations before they ever challenge anyone other than RNG.


Edited by Vic_Mackie, Aug 14 2019 - 20:04.


BananaCannon #9 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:03

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View PostJunkaTheAdmirable, on Aug 14 2019 - 10:53, said:

 

Don't mind a relaxed season after tryharding for tanks TBH.

A time to relax is fine, but people should just be able to enjoy playing a mode, right? It shouldn't be that stressful, and it only is because players are competitive. We already have breaks of three weeks to a month between events and seasons. If you tell people they don't have to play the game for months then their skills atrophe, and they get in the habit of simply playing other games and never return. A season should never be as active as a campaign, but it should have options for clans that want to play and clans that want to have an easy farm alike. Just make the game fun, and have some kind of participation prize even for the losers if they are actually challenging themselves.



Zero_o7 #10 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:05

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 14:03, said:

A time to relax is fine, but people should just be able to enjoy playing a mode, right? It shouldn't be that stressful, and it only is because players are competitive. We already have breaks of three weeks to a month between events and seasons. If you tell people they don't have to play the game for months then their skills atrophe, and they get in the habit of simply playing other games and never return. A season should never be as active as a campaign, but it should have options for clans that want to play and clans that want to have an easy farm alike.

I love the competitive environment of clan wars and I want to play. I am here to compete. What else am I gonna do, play pubs pfft.



JunkaTheAdmirable #11 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:20

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View PostZero_o7, on Aug 14 2019 - 20:05, said:

I love the competitive environment of clan wars and I want to play. I am here to compete. What else am I gonna do, play pubs pfft.

View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 20:03, said:

A time to relax is fine, but people should just be able to enjoy playing a mode, right? It shouldn't be that stressful, and it only is because players are competitive. We already have breaks of three weeks to a month between events and seasons. If you tell people they don't have to play the game for months then their skills atrophe, and they get in the habit of simply playing other games and never return. A season should never be as active as a campaign, but it should have options for clans that want to play and clans that want to have an easy farm alike. Just make the game fun, and have some kind of participation prize even for the losers if they are actually challenging themselves.

 

Oh yeah you guys def have a point. I'm hardly an expert on map mechanics but I would think the counterbalance to farming land would be an increased incentive to sack land that has been settled for a few days.

 

Like the way it should work is the longer you hold land, the more gold it pays, but also the more gold that gets taken by an invader during a sack. So no-man's land that goes back and forth isn't worth much, but if a clan wants to go full barbarossa and into settled territory there should be a huge potential payout to make up for giving up provinces.

 

IDK how that would work exactly just an idea based on other games like tribalwars I used to play.



PrrplPplEater #12 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 20:36

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We miss ransacks. Also, the gold missions are not close to what they were before in terms of value. Division limit makes it hard to be active in multiple timezones if sitting on any land. Currently we have a couple rogue stacks to attack or defend with just to give us something to do. I understand why the division limits are in place though. 

 

I am very happy that there is no alliance mechanism though. The bigger map is nice. I do like the simplicity, a LOT less time spent on diplo and planning. I know @Perfect loves that sort of thing but that dude is insane anyway - j/k luv you brah :P



Elevendy #13 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 22:23

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As I stated before in citadel, I will state once again here.

 

TL;DR at the bottom

 

While this is a pretty honest rendition of the old 1.0 style of clan wars, there is one factor that was not considered, or ignored in creating this season. One factor that would sadly, not make it truly possible to capture what old CW 1.0 style, which is time. In the past, most clans understandably, would sit and farm in specific locations, looking to powerblock up and bully clans out of regions to own certain parts of the map, and would naturally form alliances in adjacency to eachother. Now, the start of a season would be a bit of a war powderkeg as everyone would scramble for land, but it would typically die down after a week or two.

 

What clans would then do, after farming whatever they wanted, is they would spend their time elsewhere since they weren't pressed to play the game nearly as much, which is where we found a lot of high end political figures on CR/D. Random drama, constant bouts of flexing, and the measuring of e-peens would usually fuel drama, that would then blossom into full blown wars. While a funny way to operate a war, it was a way to record history and at the time, entertain the people of the forum, who weren't exactly involved in those fights. Clans would pull off, look to land near where they wanted to attack, and slowly march across the map to go and fight the clan they wanted to map. This typically was a big deal, and most clans would be watching it occur on the map day by day.

 

The issue however now though, is that there is a time constraint, and a clear way clans are measured at the end of the season, which is farming. We have 30 days to play this season, and when pulling off the map to go land somewhere else, say for a war, would take reasonably 3 days; and that's if things go perfectly. Most wars however, were not perfect, and lasted for a 5 to 12 days, so you're looking at 16% to 40% of the season gone by, and in a season where gold farming equates to your eligibility into an end of season tournament, is extremely detrimental. While it is possible for clans to do some skirmishing, you will never see a full out war this season, the time just isn't there. If clan wars stays in season based play, CW 1.0 can never exist again, and CW as we know it will be permanently changed forever, for better, or for worse. Back then, time wasn't an issue for clans, as clan wars was 24/7. Every day, for 365 days a year. No requirement for breaks, since the way 1.0 was designed, allowed for clans to naturally rest between wars, unless of course provoked or attacked. Currently, the map works the same way as it used to, and people enjoy that, but the time constraints, and qualifications for the end of season tournament, really hold clans back from taking any risks.

 

TL;DR: The season is just way too short for anyone to reasonably do anything in what OTTER's plan envisioned clan wars to be, that being clan wars 1.0, where time wasn't a restriction. It's 3 days to reland and set up for any war, and with a 30 day season, that's 10% of the entire season gone by. Which for a tournament that is based off gold earnings at the end of the season for eligibility in the tournament, is a huge detriment to qualifying.


Edited by Elevendy, Aug 14 2019 - 22:30.


Casual_Boops #14 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 22:42

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 13:03, said:

A time to relax is fine, but people should just be able to enjoy playing a mode, right? It shouldn't be that stressful, and it only is because players are competitive. We already have breaks of three weeks to a month between events and seasons. If you tell people they don't have to play the game for months then their skills atrophe, and they get in the habit of simply playing other games and never return. A season should never be as active as a campaign, but it should have options for clans that want to play and clans that want to have an easy farm alike. Just make the game fun, and have some kind of participation prize even for the losers if they are actually challenging themselves.

 

Perhaps a good balance for what you're describing could be 2 areas/fronts/whatever you want to call them.. One with higher gold yield and no province limit where top-end clans can fight it out for the best rewards, and another much larger area where there are TONS of provinces and a limit of 10 per clan. The best of both worlds?



Otter_von_Bismarck #15 Posted Aug 14 2019 - 22:53

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View PostElevendy, on Aug 14 2019 - 16:23, said:

As I stated before in citadel, I will state once again here.

 

TL;DR at the bottom

 

While this is a pretty honest rendition of the old 1.0 style of clan wars, there is one factor that was not considered, or ignored in creating this season. One factor that would sadly, not make it truly possible to capture what old CW 1.0 style, which is time. In the past, most clans understandably, would sit and farm in specific locations, looking to powerblock up and bully clans out of regions to own certain parts of the map, and would naturally form alliances in adjacency to eachother. Now, the start of a season would be a bit of a war powderkeg as everyone would scramble for land, but it would typically die down after a week or two.

 

What clans would then do, after farming whatever they wanted, is they would spend their time elsewhere since they weren't pressed to play the game nearly as much, which is where we found a lot of high end political figures on CR/D. Random drama, constant bouts of flexing, and the measuring of e-peens would usually fuel drama, that would then blossom into full blown wars. While a funny way to operate a war, it was a way to record history and at the time, entertain the people of the forum, who weren't exactly involved in those fights. Clans would pull off, look to land near where they wanted to attack, and slowly march across the map to go and fight the clan they wanted to map. This typically was a big deal, and most clans would be watching it occur on the map day by day.

 

The issue however now though, is that there is a time constraint, and a clear way clans are measured at the end of the season, which is farming. We have 30 days to play this season, and when pulling off the map to go land somewhere else, say for a war, would take reasonably 3 days; and that's if things go perfectly. Most wars however, were not perfect, and lasted for a 5 to 12 days, so you're looking at 16% to 40% of the season gone by, and in a season where gold farming equates to your eligibility into an end of season tournament, is extremely detrimental. While it is possible for clans to do some skirmishing, you will never see a full out war this season, the time just isn't there. If clan wars stays in season based play, CW 1.0 can never exist again, and CW as we know it will be permanently changed forever, for better, or for worse. Back then, time wasn't an issue for clans, as clan wars was 24/7. Every day, for 365 days a year. No requirement for breaks, since the way 1.0 was designed, allowed for clans to naturally rest between wars, unless of course provoked or attacked. Currently, the map works the same way as it used to, and people enjoy that, but the time constraints, and qualifications for the end of season tournament, really hold clans back from taking any risks.

 

TL;DR: The season is just way too short for anyone to reasonably do anything in what OTTER's plan envisioned clan wars to be, that being clan wars 1.0, where time wasn't a restriction. It's 3 days to reland and set up for any war, and with a 30 day season, that's 10% of the entire season gone by. Which for a tournament that is based off gold earnings at the end of the season for eligibility in the tournament, is a huge detriment to qualifying.

 

This is all correct. A province heavy map only works with a longer season, because nobody is going to give up their gold for gudfites if they don't have the opportunity to make that gold later. There were a lot of other important factors in our community plan that couldn't be delivered this season, which is fine, we understood the constraints, but we just want to remind everyone that it's never going to come close to how successful 1,0 was, because this isn't 1.0. The hope is that future seasons can build on this model by continuing to restore all the features that made 1.0 so great. Any of the alternatives will only continue to kill this server.



Vic_Mackie #16 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 00:26

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Wargaming is never going to bring a full season of clan wars back ever again, there is literally no reason for them to bring it back. It doesn't increase participation any more than having smaller seasons.

Night1Rider #17 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 01:12

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View PostOtter_von_Bismarck, on Aug 14 2019 - 21:53, said:

 

This is all correct. A province heavy map only works with a longer season, because nobody is going to give up their gold for gudfites if they don't have the opportunity to make that gold later. There were a lot of other important factors in our community plan that couldn't be delivered this season, which is fine, we understood the constraints, but we just want to remind everyone that it's never going to come close to how successful 1,0 was, because this isn't 1.0. The hope is that future seasons can build on this model by continuing to restore all the features that made 1.0 so great. Any of the alternatives will only continue to kill this server.


 

Spoiler

 


Edited by Night1Rider, Aug 15 2019 - 01:14.


AnimeCrusader_North #18 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 01:19

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One word can sum up this season. ResidentSleeper

Skipstar_BIGDAMAGE #19 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 01:26

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mynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeffmynamejeff

 

this season is boring



ThatTrafficCone #20 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 01:43

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 11:52, said:

I feel that because the major areas where gold is located are somewhat isolated, we will not see very much fighting among the top clans disappointingly. The rules simply do not incentivize clans that can farm to fight, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some clans prefer a break between major campaigns. I do think there should be options for higher income for the clans that want to roam the map as well as defending, so a system that pits those opposite mindsets against each other would be better. I feel like after a week or so, the map is likely to stagnate as the strongest clans in an area reach a gold income they're happy with and draw borders with their neighbors. Most of the top clans drew lines around their goals before the season started and will be filling them in by the third or fourth day.

 

 All of the extra land does give a battleground for weaker clans to grow, and that's what's really important -- having a larger map means more people can participate and more people will. A large map is a necessity and I'm willing to accept compromises if it helps grow a new generation of clan wars players. I'm glad there is actually a nursery for mediocre clans to improve and become new challengers. If there was more incentive for the top clans to fight, too, it'd be ideal in my opinion.

 

The division and province limits seem to be working as intended, and do not even affect most starting clans. Also, everyone thought alliances were stupid, so I'm glad they're gone for now.

 

I agree with this entirely. I think the missions are sorely underutilized and would be the ideal catalyst for pitting those two defensive and roaming mindsets against each other. There could be a mission set specifically for defending or connecting land, and another set specifically for attacking or capturing (valuable?) land. Provinces would deliver gold for the more defense-oriented clans, whereas the missions would deliver most of the gold for the roaming-oriented clans. I suppose it would be possible to do both at the same time, but then that comes with the risk of biting off more than you can chew. Either go big and sit, and or stay small and roam.

 

I also think there should be a hard limit on provinces owned as well as divisions, although I'm not sure of the ratio. Perhaps a system where provinces must have a division on them in order to be "owned" by a clan, and therefore generate income. Headquarters could also be renamed as Forward Operating Bases (FOB) to give that kind of psychological suggestion to stay on the move.






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