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Season 12 - First Thoughts


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GroundDelta #21 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 03:14

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IMO, having a larger map is great. It is refreshing to see all these new clans that you'd never normally see make it onto the global map and actually have land. Smaller maps confine the space between top clans which in turn causes fighting, and large scale map dominance preventing little clans from making it onto the map. Missions are great, but they shouldn't be the center piece of CW on a regular basis, I dont think the majority of players want to spend hours upon hours playing dozens of battles per night making CW a grind/campaign like past seasons. Missions are beneficial to reward activity, but they should reward things like industrial resources, premium time, bonds, on top of gold. The biggest problems on the map is that the gold is still centralized into pockets where top clans will sit. This isn't a problem but its taking away from the rest of the map and so you have too many of these 24 gold provinces which are next to useless yields. I'd much rather see 120-240 + gold yields minimum so at least smaller clans can earn SOME useful amount of gold. You also have the clan rankings based on gold income which in this version of CW basically encourages farming rather then battles, and trying to fight top clans. Rankings should be based on fame, elo, or something else besides gold income because that way top clans have to play/fight each other in order to increase their ranking instead of sit on pre-determined amounts of gold. Like stated numerous times already, the length is too short. We'd much rather see longer timelines of seasonal CW with breaks in between for holidays, ect that way rivalries, wars, ect have time to brew. 

- Better Reward Missions

- Longer Timeline of CW

- Reworking of Clan Ranking Leaderboard 

- Better Spread on Gold Income Provinces

- More Rewards like Bonds, Prem Time, Industrial Resource

 

This season will be carried by the small clans fighting each other and the top clans sitting dormant for a month which is a nice break but i'd still occasionally like to fight other top clans.



_xDsmote___FakeNews #22 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 06:10

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If you're willing to go through the diplo effort to get a bunch of allies on your borders for the reward of only having to worry about riots and adjacent landing zones, then that's an option, although if you give few enough doodies then you can just take your provinces and say "come at me bruh" -- all those options are there, which I like.

 

I don't like that it is literally impossible to get any gold if you're not a landowner. Ransacking off is dumb, and laughably low-reward missions don't help. If you're going to nuke the missions, don't nuke ransacking too. If you're doing your diplo right and holding the proper provinces, then it is fitting that they would make more gold than someone ransacking/doing missions, but the fact that the latter two combine for poop is a bit stupid.

 

The season is too short, and the whole ranking of clans at the end by gold disincentivizes any fights unless a clan pulls off just to go screw with someone else, but in all likelihood that clan would screw themselves more than the other clan because the season is barely a month. We just had a campaign as well, so if the earliest campaign comes in December (or perhaps November?) that still leaves October open for no reason whatsoever. This season could easily have been like 2-3 months up to October/November with a break before a next campaign. Don't know why this wasn't done.

 

The 7-division limit + 10-lowest province gold income limit are both nice and done by and large okay I guess, but a hard, say, 8-limit on both might be better. Trying to help coverstack allies is not easy unless you do the proper diplo to ensure you have allies on your border that lets you leave some provinces empty, which I suppose is a fine incentive to allow the 7-limit to exist. 10 provinces might be a bit much, as I know from being in OTTER plus seeing the map developing amongst other top clans is that it lets the top clans literally devour almost every single 960 and above province within striking distance. 8 or 9 might be better. It would also make a "small-big-world" more feasible (if that makes sense).

 

24 gold provinces are retarded. 24 * 30 over the 30 days = 720 gold from one province over an entire season. That's just an insult to the clans who try to sit on them. Maybe having them be 60 gold or 120 gold provinces would be more reasonable. It would probably have been best to wipe like 30 provinces off the map plus the stupidly useless gold missions that have been left in exchange for all the 24 gold provinces going up to like 60 or 120 gold so that they're actually worth fighting for for smaller clans.

 

Also, I get the concept of fireflies but the current implementation of it is stupid. Half of the firefly mechanic is basically "which clan is the lucky one that gets to sit right on it." I'd rather the fireflies be eliminated and have that extra 21K between them be put onto all the other provinces for more consistency (this coming from someone who will be in a clan benefiting from them, which should say something in and of itself).

 

Overall prolly a 6/10 from me for the season. Good concepts from an idealistic perspective, but the implementation of those ideas was flawed in some respects. Namely, the 10-limit is a province or two too high, and the 24-gold provinces + missions should be agglomerated together; that is, either drop all the 24 gold provinces and put that gold into missions or drop all the missions entirely to make the 24-gold provinces at least somewhat worthwhile for smaller clans. Also a longer season without any season ranking (YES, I know it's for playoffs, but frankly most clans would rather have longer seasons and no playoffs cause everyone gets more gold and less stress) would have been better.


Edited by _xDsmote___FakeNews, Aug 15 2019 - 06:14.


GroundDelta #23 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 06:46

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Building on Fireflies, they should be a cluster of high reward gold provinces (4-5) that move each week. Make the yield of all five combined very strong and appealing. This would hopefully give incentive for clans to move off of their land and position themselves to take control of the firefly cluster, or so forth creating fighting. One province isn't worth a clans movement atm tbh

 


Edited by GroundDelta, Aug 15 2019 - 06:46.


Vic_Mackie #24 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 07:08

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View PostOtter_von_Bismarck, on Aug 14 2019 - 22:53, said:

 

This is all correct. A province heavy map only works with a longer season, because nobody is going to give up their gold for gudfites if they don't have the opportunity to make that gold later. There were a lot of other important factors in our community plan that couldn't be delivered this season, which is fine, we understood the constraints, but we just want to remind everyone that it's never going to come close to how successful 1,0 was, because this isn't 1.0. The hope is that future seasons can build on this model by continuing to restore all the features that made 1.0 so great. Any of the alternatives will only continue to kill this server.

 

I'll cheer you on if you go fight -g- or mahou.



Strauberri #25 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 11:30

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This season sucks, can we get our normal clan wars season back now ?      Give us back our gold missions. 

Zanarkand_C #26 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 15:59

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I rather enjoy the diversity this brings. Just by sheer glance at the global map I see far more random clans rather then the typical top 5. Gives the smaller clans an opportunity to enjoy CW, while the top clans can take a break from try harding for tanks but can still play every so often. If you wanted to try hard all the time you should have used Team Battles format more often when you had the chance.

_Perfect #27 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 16:02

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Seeing as most of the clans on any significant gold value have <10 battles id say that isn't "enjoying" cw's, thats farming and will stagnate clans because their player base will get used to not logging on daily for fights. 

lozarus #28 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 16:49

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OBJECTIVE GOALS

- This Campaign SHOULD be used as a rollback to a blank canvas, with which to error-check content, its the most significant reason i supported it. 

- By rolling back features, we can check the output of content, guage its function, measure its worth, and then add and subtract. 

- If there is no imputus by WG or by the Community to help error-check, provide feedback or act upon the infomation gathererd, then WG will just say it was a failure based on its ony measurement of sucsess (which we were told was quantity of battles), and people against the idea of rolling back so we can build going forward, can cheerlead their own agenda, without contributing anything, by just trying to kill the idea of constructive reasoning in the first place. 


OBSERVED ISSUES

- It is clear (if consultation was even required) that the map is TOO large
- the timezone's are TOO FAR apart
- and the gold-pots are TOO FREQUENT
- and TOO HIGHLY concentrated. 

Having spoken to clan leaders who know something about the game, it appears i am not alone in this assertation. 

OBVIOUS SOLUTIONS

- WG SHOULD 
1.) pause the map. 
2.) make the change. 
3.) restart the map. 
4.) measure the result. 
5.) ...
6.) profit. 

Spoiler


You can rinse and repeat this until the 30 days is over, add, measure and consider each feature from a list of premade features, until you have something that is... 

a.) saturated. 
b.) active. 
c.) compettitive. 

SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS

Instead, by last minute tying the results of this 30 days to a Playoffs, it breaks the only incentive to fight, by making clans sit and farm. 

So it appears the season is being sabotaged from without and within.

WG need to raise the bar before allowing people to type. 
 

View PostZenolius, on Aug 15 2019 - 10:30, said:

This season sucks, can we get our normal clan wars season back now ?      Give us back our gold missions. 


You're not in a clan nor have you played CW's this season. 


 

BradenT7 #29 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 16:53

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Only complaint I have is that ransacks should be on. Otherwise, it looks nice, and I agree with Banana here.

SparkyGT #30 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 18:52

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1 gold per hour off a province is horrible, need some better missions as before, we dont do CW every day so missions are better chance to earn more gold. if we capture multiple provinces as a few days ago then the gold was decent but not as good as doing a mission previously.

BananaCannon #31 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 20:35

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The Global Map definitely has been suffering from feature creep, and I'm glad that removing most of the extra junk makes things much more intuitive for officers both new and old. It was simply overcomplicated with different conflicting incentives and pitfalls everywhere. It's much easier to understand that you earn as much gold as the provinces you hold are worth, and more emerging clans will participate if they can understand it. The number of actual battles may decrease because fighting is not incentivized, but the number of clans involved in owning something on the map should increase. That helps them recruit and take pride in their accomplishments.

 

The distribution of the gold is fine because for this ruleset the land is the only objective, and the top clans need places to be. On the surface, it may be tempting to simply make all the provinces worth the same amount, but the amount that could be earned by a single clan would dramatically decrease. The most active clans would not be able to support many teams, and the least active clans would make much more per player. So, active clans would simply split into multiple clans to own more as a group and defeat the purpose anyway. You might as well just reduce the size of a clan, because the result is the same. Those gold clusters serve as places to stick top clans so they don't interfere in the lesser battles, and in theory clans would compete over those limited resource clusters if there is one or two less than the number of the scariest clans. Regretfully, the number of top competitive clans and their close communications with each other make creating that conflict impossible if there is any peaceful alternative, because clans are scared -- they are damaged by losses if players get fed up and leave to something easier, and if their players simply leave and flock to the stronger clan they were trying to fight, then the competition also is removed. A lot of players simply want an easy ride, but everyone wants a challenge that is at a level that they have a chance to overcome. If they simply get rolled over and over it's not fun for the winner or loser.

 

I feel like fireflies should be landings only. Anyone should be able to pull off and drop on them, fight for them, and then have them reset for a new round. If a clan controls a ton of gold with a defense advantage, it can be intimidating for anyone to even bother. If the results are temporary, then no feelings are hurt and you have a chance to try again the next day, or three days, or week. I think Stages in previous seasons were a great way to display this. You'll fight clans at around your own level and get a better idea where you stand, with commensurate reward. If you had moving pots, in the spirit of firefly provinces, that represents an objective for the best clans to fight over, but they wont compete for them if they have something almost as good to sit on, or feel they have no chance at the prize.

 

Suppose there was a 20k pot that moved every day-- the best clans would fight over it constantly. There can't be a prize that only the best clan claims over and over though, so make multiple objectives that one clan cannot monopolize -- they can only choose one to go for, and you could maybe tier them, with a lesser and greater prize. There are options. We proposed an option where there was a daily clan mission with multiple possible firefly objectives, and then one clan can't monopolize them all.

Another way to section them out is to make a central king of the hill objective province surrounded by lesser gold pot objectives, kind of like the Armageddon campaign objectives, but where they reset every few days. I'm confident that the best clans should compete on a tournament system of some sort like this, because then best-interest diplomatic agreements are essentially impossible. Clans will simply fight for what they can win, and clans can be rewarded based on what they achieve in their group. Even the best clans will lose some battles, and there are plenty of clans who will get lucky or outperform on that scenario and get rewards. That competitive spirit and joy of overcoming an obstacle are what makes the competition exciting. It never happens if people just don't want to fight and are happy with scraps. Not every clan needs to be in the top brackets -- it can be a separate front from the normal map, which should remain something simpler for the majority of clans. There just needs to be something for the clans that want a challenge, and something that's a consolation prize for everyone who doesn't.



Hellsfog #32 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 21:52

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 14 2019 - 13:52, said:

I feel that because the major areas where gold is located are somewhat isolated, we will not see very much fighting among the top clans disappointingly. The rules simply do not incentivize clans that can farm to fight, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing as some clans prefer a break between major campaigns. I do think there should be options for higher income for the clans that want to roam the map as well as defending, so a system that pits those opposite mindsets against each other would be better. I feel like after a week or so, the map is likely to stagnate as the strongest clans in an area reach a gold income they're happy with and draw borders with their neighbors. Most of the top clans drew lines around their goals before the season started and will be filling them in by the third or fourth day.

 

 All of the extra land does give a battleground for weaker clans to grow, and that's what's really important -- having a larger map means more people can participate and more people will. A large map is a necessity and I'm willing to accept compromises if it helps grow a new generation of clan wars players. I'm glad there is actually a nursery for mediocre clans to improve and become new challengers. If there was more incentive for the top clans to fight, too, it'd be ideal in my opinion.

 

The division and province limits seem to be working as intended, and do not even affect most starting clans. Also, everyone thought alliances were stupid, so I'm glad they're gone for now.

 

 I do agree that placing the gold pots closer together would encourage more fighting but the highlighted portion is what really matters. 



lozarus #33 Posted Aug 15 2019 - 22:07

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Clans diplod for the fireflies in the immediate past, and to a serious degree since they've existed, they only actually had any impact on the game notiably by one clan tripplecrossing their own alliance for 2 weeks worth of income. 
And most non-Magpie type people will look at 7 days, or even 30 days of income and not throw too much effort into it since 30 days of income and a ruined reputation/broken back is not worth it when you're playing the game for years to come. 

A considerably smaller map, less concentrations of gold OR both will stimulate battles, and competition, and rivalry, since you can't have 3 guys sitting on 10k+, and 5 guys sitting on 5k+, someone's losing out if Diplo reigns, so its about finding the right place to cut the cake to cause the fights. 

We do also only tend to hear negative feedback, since positive feedback is unremarkable to those who are content with what they have, so measruing player/clan satisfaction is not going to be quantifiable unless WG force us to honestly and sensibly answer polls, with that being said, it is SO easy to get from where we are NOW to a much improved CW's over previous seasons, because we went back to basics. 
 

BananaCannon #34 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 00:05

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View PostHellsfog, on Aug 15 2019 - 12:52, said:

 I do agree that placing the gold pots closer together would encourage more fighting but the highlighted portion is what really matters. 

I didn't mean that at all. If all the pots were together, either one clan will monopolize too much (like season 8 I think?) or the clans will agree to divide it and remain stagnant. There need to be isolated clusters for each clan, but not enough for all the clans that want them. That usually means that someone just gets boned eventually though, so there needs to be missions or some other incentive to support a clan during those attacks. Rather than a solution where wargaming has to guess how many clans are relavent at the top, a tournament system is a lot more scalable, where the top clans go after scaling prizes as I mentioned options for.



_xDsmote___FakeNews #35 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 00:15

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View PostBananaCannon, on Aug 15 2019 - 17:05, said:

[...] so there needs to be missions or some other incentive to support a clan during those attacks. Rather than a solution where wargaming has to guess how many clans are relavent at the top, a tournament system is a lot more scalable, where the top clans go after scaling prizes as I mentioned options for.

 

If I remember correctly, there used to be a thing where you could ransack a province for three days worth of income at the expense of it not providing income for five days. The last time we had ransacking, it was two days income of ransack for no income of three days. If the three-and-five approach was brought back, then a clan could ransack someone's 3,600 pot (for example) and get 10,800 gold off of it. Likewise, a 2,040 pot would provide 6,120 gold (but when we had 2,400 pots, you could get 7,200).

 

I totally get the idea of missions and think there should be at least some so that, for example, in the event that a clan doesn't want provinces, they could still do those missions for the respective gold. However, we should also make sure that diplo is still a thing, because as much time as some clans may desire to put into diplo, there is no denying that a clan who puts in the right amount of diplo can get themselves more gold than they would have otherwise gotten without it. And, quite frankly, two clans of equal skill but unequal diplo skill should NOT be getting the same amount of gold because one of those clans has more savvy map management than the other. Now, IMHO that more savvy clan shouldn't be getting craploads more gold than the other clan, but there should be at least SOME difference.

 

Turning ransacking back on and bringing it back to the original three-for-five approach would help solve the problem a decent bit -- not entirely, but it would go a ways towards solving it.



CrimsonTiberius #36 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 00:27

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Season 11:  174 Clans Fighting

Season 12: 126 Clans Fighting   

 

With the new changes we went down 48 Clans. 

 

 



_xDsmote___FakeNews #37 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 01:17

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View PostCrimsonTiberius, on Aug 15 2019 - 17:27, said:

Season 11:  174 Clans Fighting

Season 12: 126 Clans Fighting   

 

With the new changes we went down 48 Clans. 

 

I too like to compare the numbers from 48-day mark of one season to the 4-day mark of another.



Narwl_Legend_Emu #38 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 08:00

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MAHOU - 13 GAMES

YOUJO - 7 GAMES

OTTER - 3 GAMES

RELIC -  5 GAMES

-G- - 6 BATTLES

200IQ - 10 BATTLES

STRNG - 3 BATTLES

4 days in and people have less then 1 game per day. Yet they make lots of gold. I think cube/sar are on and strng just gave otter the 7k next to them so strng will drop also. But good solid stats for the start of a season.

 



ShadowPatriot #39 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 12:44

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After reading this topic, just ROFL.

 

Don't you all remember. You guys wanted this style of clan wars.

Remember in the other topic I made. Everyone attacked me. The smaller clans who had their chance to boycott this season,  enjoy fighting over 24 gold a day. Just table scraps.

 

Only thing clan wars needed

Alliance system gone

More gold missions

And split the victory points from the gold go back to old way where there was victory point missions.

 

United Misfits voted after 4 days we are quitting this season.

Only way wargaming is going to learn,  us smaller clans leave the global map. Boycott this season, what you get a day for holding land you waste that much gold on 1 clan war battle.

 

Like I said before this season started welcome to season 12 camp fest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Selkmanam #40 Posted Aug 16 2019 - 14:17

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We are having a good time in Spain, it feels better than the old seasons and the province limit is a good thing to keep the big clans in check while most of the server have fun in the season but the gold rush operation is a joke, we estimate a 2400g for this source, in a missions intensive season you can make a +-150 ELO requirement for the operation gold rush, with the provinces giving less gold it can make the clans roam the global map looking for similar skill oponents.




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