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New player asking for hands on training in Gunnery and Spot/Conceal

train newbie hands on ojt instruction live team match gunnery spot and conceal greatly appreciated thank you

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1ST_AD_Abrams #1 Posted Aug 26 2019 - 07:06

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Please note I have been working on this post for almost 3 weeks now.

 

I am not to proud to ask for help.  I have watched the videos however I am more of a do and learn versus watching then applying as I can't see what I am doing wrong (no this not an excuse it is just how I learn, OJT)

 

I am formally requesting assistance in the areas of Gunnery and Spot/Conceal.  I am not at this time worried about my role for my tank or where it should be.  If I can't solve the two issues listed then it won't matter.

 

Gunnery

Spoiler

 

For Spot/Conceal

Spoiler

 

 

I know this is asking a great deal and some of the items can be answered without showing me and then having me try it but it would greatly help.  I think the Team Training would allow this.  I need to do the things and have someone correct my mistakes while I am making them.

 

I am usually on from 10 CT to 5 CT.  Reason not to practice/train in a real match is that your stats are affected as well as the team I am on.  I hope to start some improvements so I am not just a stat forever and just might be able to become a possible challenge in the game, but I will still suck, I say again I will still suck.  I will suck but will be a step up in the suck category.  Not all of the items mentioned have to be done all at once.

 

I can put all my replays that I have (mentioned elsewhere the replays are only recent) in a zip file and host it on a cloud/file storage.

 

Special skills instructors will need to be able to tolerate teaching me:  patience, being asked why or how or could you do this, knowing negative comments don't make things better and sometimes frustration or asking it still doesn't work questions.



banziduck #2 Posted Aug 26 2019 - 12:08

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1st_AD,

 

Your stats are not bad given the amount of games you have played, I would be willing to help but I am not on line from 10 CT to 5 CT unless it is a weekend I play more in the evenings.  But I would be willing to look at your replays and try to help you that also.

 

Cheers



el_01 #3 Posted Aug 26 2019 - 23:53

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Hello 1ST_AD,

 

I can help with that, since honestly I don't have time for the pressure of Randoms. I will roughly be on at the same time on Thursday. I'll send you a PM later tonight. Select a good variety of tanks you would like to be trained in. 



dunniteowl #4 Posted Aug 27 2019 - 00:03

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Honestly, I WOULD help out, because I like doing stuff like that.  You should avoid me platooning with you or training with you, because I run at around 11 fps.

 

That said, hang in there and be patient.  Read that stuff in the WWP I linked for you and do your best to be paying attention on purpose.

 

 


GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



the_Deadly_Bulb #5 Posted Aug 27 2019 - 01:44

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View Postel_01, on Aug 26 2019 - 14:53, said:

Hello 1ST_AD,

 

I can help with that, since honestly I don't have time for the pressure of Randoms. I will roughly be on at the same time on Thursday. I'll send you a PM later tonight. Select a good variety of tanks you would like to be trained in. 

That's great el, I've sent OP a PM and in game message to try to get a together in a TR going and help.

 

I'l try to get on Thursday too so we can get 3 in the TR. :great:



Roggg2 #6 Posted Aug 27 2019 - 14:47

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I would gladly help you out, but your times are a problem for me.  I'm working when you are playing.  If you ever want a platoon session in prime time EST, give me a shout.  Say 8pm to midnight EST.

 

 



1ST_AD_Abrams #7 Posted Aug 29 2019 - 01:44

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Just want to say thanks to those who have responded.  You might see that I haven't been on much if at all the last few days (other than to play 3 matches of the Steel event - ironically the first try I placed 14th, second time 10th, the other night got into 7th place.  Then the I hit you for 200 damage and then they hit me for 301 damage - assume their tank had upgrades, but still warrants gunnery skill).

 

At what time of day should I post here that I have logged on?

 

Thank you.



el_01 #8 Posted Aug 29 2019 - 02:44

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View Post1ST_AD_Abrams, on Aug 28 2019 - 17:44, said:

Just want to say thanks to those who have responded.  You might see that I haven't been on much if at all the last few days (other than to play 3 matches of the Steel event - ironically the first try I placed 14th, second time 10th, the other night got into 7th place.  Then the I hit you for 200 damage and then they hit me for 301 damage - assume their tank had upgrades, but still warrants gunnery skill).

 

At what time of day should I post here that I have logged on?

 

Thank you.

Preferably the times you said you would be on :)

Seriously though, look at the PM I sent you. Bottom bar of the game. I'll be on at the times listed, if you don't make it, sorry, I have school to deal with.


Edited by el_01, Aug 29 2019 - 02:45.


el_01 #9 Posted Aug 29 2019 - 23:58

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Alright, if you actually genuinely want help, it might be a good idea to show up when you say you will. Just saying, it's a pretty good idea. I get it if you had other things to do, but yeah, being on time is a good trait. Reading the messages other players send you is as well.

 

I'll be playing during the weekend and next Thursday during the same times, hope to see you on.



1ST_AD_Abrams #10 Posted Sep 02 2019 - 08:27

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(Note as I was typing this message, I went ahead and sent friend requests to those who have responded on here)

 

I have only got one message in the inbox and that was from The_Deadly_Bulb is the only person in my mail box, other than 2 others that are from August 6th and earlier.

 

In terms of in game messages, I only got 1 and it was from Ninja Elite, which I figured was a mistake or one of those join and then boot to laugh and when I went to join the invitation had expired or been withdrawn (don't remember which) and since then I don't remember any other friend request.

 

About same time, they had path to Brit. X event.  I am currently in that.  However I am staying at Tier 3, even though I have bought the Tier 4 (matilda) that is next in line to the British Tier 3 Medium Tank - Medium III.  Still run into same issue of rounds that can't penetrate, even the top part of the armor of a SPG Tier 3 or 4 (can't remember.)  Do I attach my replay's to this message or is there a place where I upload them instead since I couldn't send them all to here with a 5mb limit, that would only take 5 replays on average.

 

This is an explanation/excuse/reasoning as to why I haven't contacted any of you, I do not feel I have the right to give you a buzz/pm during your gaming time and instead since you are doing this as a pure gesture of goodwill I wait till you contact me in game and then I, not you, drop everything and join up with you for the training.  I hope that is viewed as being fair to you.  Also since you all have your own schedules I can be on during those that time period I mentioned and be available for training.  I sometimes can be on at 9pm CT (which is 10pm EST) and as mentioned will play up to no later than usually 8am CT (9am EST). 

 

I can also check in here before I quit for the day (in the am) and when I start (pm) to see if you have said you will be on that day/night so I can make sure I don't go off on a different project (in between matches have been giving my Haf-x case a Total 100% cleaning before I retire my Sandy Bridge (2600K) and replace it with a skylake (since it is last CPU that will run Win 7).

 

I have access to the following tanks:

SPG (tier II), TD (tier 5), LT (tier 1), MT (tier 3/4), and HT (tier 2 to 7).

I have some crews that have mastered their tank and others still working on that qualification

 

Sorry If I have missed any of you during the times since you are making the effort to help.  Hopefully now with you names added as friends (temporary or perm, up to you) we will be able to get me on On Track to Becoming a Part of the Community.



minneerminneer #11 Posted Sep 05 2019 - 12:04

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I'm way to lazy to do the time conversion but from 4pm-1am est I can help ya if ya want it

1ST_AD_Abrams #12 Posted Sep 07 2019 - 09:32

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Time Conversion starting from US West Coast, If CT is 3pm

PST (West Coast, Alaska) -2 (1pm)

MST (Around the Rockies) -1 (2pm)

CT  Baseline

EST (East Coast of US) +1 (4pm)

London/England/Parts of France +6 (9pm)



HeroEnVec #13 Posted Sep 10 2019 - 23:39

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How is your verbal english?  If good, you can send me a PM when I am online and we can chat on TS.  Doing something like you want without verbal conversation wastes your time and the other person "helping" you.

1ST_AD_Abrams #14 Posted Sep 11 2019 - 06:35

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I have no issue with verbal communication on teamspeak.  Not fully use to using it as I don't chat via voice in other games.  I am fluent in English.  Yes I have to live under the same America whose leader uses sharpies to alter maps.  Can't wait for his next storm warning.  Now while I am supposedly fluent in my primary and only language my grammar sometimes leaves that fluency open to debate (just a side joke)

Boghie #15 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 13:31

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1st AD Abrams,

 

You have a unique opportunity for some great training scheduled by our clan.  It is after the hours you posted - namely 5pm CT on Tuesdays - so it may not work for you.  CloudWalkr has dramatically improved my game since he offered training sessions on this very Forum and our clan offered technical support (TeamSpeak service).  If he is not there some of the more experienced players will run through your questions in a Training Room as requested.  This training is available to folks not in our clan by contacting CloudWalkr.  Again, the timing for the scheduled training sessions may not work, but it might because it is just outside your range.

 

Also, you DO NOT bother players when you ping them once when you see them in session.  Just don't ping them like some teenage boy with a crush or something.  As the great submarine commander Marko Ramius once said - 'One ping.  One ping only'.  Remember, unless they take the time to find you, and friend you, and review who is 'in session', they will not know you are available.  Just ping us with an in-game message.  Something like = 'Hey bro, can you help me with <insert something here>.'

 

TeamSpeak is kinda essential for a good training session.  We have a TeamSpeak service so I would strongly recommend getting it installed, getting the push-to-talk configured, and getting used to it.  It is very light on computer resources.

 

As to some of your questions:

My guess - just looking at your recent tank selection and the stats over the past seven days - is that you are bifurcating your games. 

  • In your HTs (VK 36.01 HT and King Tiger) you are probably rushing to the heavy zone and slugging it out face to face.  In a way, that is what the job of a HT is.  However, your selection of HTs is not necessarily the best for that type of game play.  The Krauts are better second level heavies.  They have accurate guns with high penetration - but, they do not trade bar room fight slugfests well because the 'alpha' (that is, damage per penetrating round) is low.  You probably have to back off a bit and let some Ruskie heavy metal bash faces while you slam the enemy during the Ruskie reload.  Side scraping is essential for HT brawling.  We emphasize that technique in the training session.
  • In your TDs you might not be hitting what is being spotted.  Best guess is that you are still nesting.  Quickly get to a good shooting position and SHOOT.  There really is no reason to not be in a shooting position by the time the LT starts active/passive scouting.  Zip, zero, nada.  They have to cover more territory so the timing should be fine if you take a good line of attack.  If you are nesting you really have to hit what is spotted though.  It is incredibly frustrating for a LT to ridge run, have an enemy tank crest the ridge, and not have the cresting tank severely damaged.  If that happens to me I leave that zone.  GLHF campers.
  • In ALL of your tanks you spot literally NOTHING.  That either means you are Camping Base, nesting with the TDs, or do not place any priority on vision mechanics.  Have you purchased Vents, Coated Optics and/or Binos?  Have you skilled up in Situational Awareness, Recon, Camo, and BIA?  As a NewB - and in mid-tier - it is not expected that you have all of these skills, but those are the skills the enemy has that makes you visible to them.  Vision (positive and negative) is essential in this game.  We emphasize this in our training sessions.
  • Also, where are you dying in your LT/MT/HT?  If you are dying in the 'Back 40' than you are nesting with camping TDs and arty.  Yeah, you might get useless late damage but you are not supporting your team.  If that is the case get your gun in the game.  Early damage, best damage.  Positioning is essential for supporting your team to a win.  A poorly placed vehicle triggers some players and takes a gun out of the essential fight - both bad.
  • Finally, if your shots are not penning you are probably confusing the role of a HT with that of MTs and LTs.  Maybe you jump from a HT that can pen to a MT from one game to another.  Different strokes for different tanks.  You definitely cannot go at HTs and some MTs frontally with an MT/LT.  You have to move and flank to get side and rear shots.

 

 



Jhuderis #16 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 21:53

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I'm a noob, but here goes:
 

Gunnery

 I need to focus on the following:

  • Basic areas addressing increase damage
    • Position and opportunity, to me, make the biggest difference here. This is what I learn most from streamers. Watching where they go and why is often about getting shots in the side/rear of tanks that they’ve maneuvered around
  • Why I can't see anything of enemy tank but they still can damage me
    • Depends on your view. If you’re “zoomed” (sniper view) you’re looking through the gunners’ site and “zoomed out” (arcade view) you’re seeing from the commanders viewpoint. They may be able to “see” part of your tank and aim at it, while you can’t because of your view. Try changing from one to the other.
    • Also, be aware of bits and pieces (cupola etc.) that stick up higher on your particular tank than another. I go into every battle with my IS knowing I have a giant beach ball of a cupola and try to account for it with positioning (not very well lol)
  • Why if going head to head against enemy tank that no matter where I aim, the shell type or whether the 2 circles in the center are green that I do not damage
    • Mostly this is angling. The pen indicator doesn’t take that into account, so while the armor thickness is pennable, it’s calculating that as “from straight on” instead of from whatever angle you are relative to the target.
  • How to improve getting past the ricochet, bounce, didn't scratch them issues
    • Some of it is RNG and will never go away. Other times it’s what I mentioned above.
  • Side Swiping or as I like to call, curve balls, right angle deflection rounds, ghost shells.
    • None of those exist. The physics of the game are pretty locked down and if someone is hitting you it’s because they legitimately can.
  • Why lower tiers seem to outgun my tank of choice and why they deal more damage than I can deal them
    • Could be shooting prem ammo, could have a higher pen gun vs. your armor, could be their angle of attack (side, rear, top)
  • Obvious areas where I should aim for any type of tank
    • Lower plate, commander’s cupola, rear, top are all pretty reliable. Some tanks are damn near impenetrable seeming until you know the place to shoot them. I struggled a lot with the O-I until I learned “shoot it in the tits” (the little guns on the front) lol
  • Addressing issues surrounding stopping to aim and moving to fire
    • If I’m on the move and firing, I almost always use auto-aim (right click on the target). Then I focus on driving. I realize it’ll shoot for center of mass, but usually lots of shooting on the move is a high pressure situation.
    • If you’re talking about them moving, then work on leading the shots
  • Probably several other things I left out
  • Round Selection beyond just AP and AP Rigid
    • HE for open topped vehicles (mainly arty, some TD’s) can work well
  • If I see an enemy at long distance does that mean they see me and if they do how do I counter their rounds that seem to more damage than mine.
    • You can’t really counter rounds doing more damage than yours, but you can use it as information. It tells you that “trading” with that opponent isn’t the right strategy. They will burn you down before you burn them. Retreat, reposition, re-engage.

 

Spot/Conceal

  • How to use my armor better to block, ricochet or no damage enemy rounds.
    • Turn your tank on a 45 degree angle to the incoming rounds. So, if you are a rectangle, turn so that the corner of your rectangle is pointed toward the enemy, giving him steep angles to shoot at.
    • Sometimes this is also a balance between the type of tank you’re in and the type of tank you’re engaged with. Goes back to retreat, reposition, re-engage.
  • Just how exactly can you tell if you have a good concealment.
    • Being behind two layers of bushes helps a lot. (called “double bushed”;)
    • Remember to back up so the bushes go from translucent (you can see through them but it’s hazy) to solid. You can still see outlines of enemy tanks, but your muzzle flash won’t (or is far less likely) to get you spotted
  • How to deal with being spotted and engaging
    • Most of the time, if I get spotted I immediately head for cover until I can get a sense of where I’m spotted from. Often they’ll take a shot and, hit or miss, it’ll either expose them or show me the direction the shot came from (if it’s a hit). Use that information to decide whether you can trade with that particular tank and win or should move away. (I suck at remembering to move away but am trying hard to do better)
  • The issue regarding the enemy can get shots in on me even though I never see their treads at all or even hull
    • Sorta the same as in the other section. They probably can see some bit of you poking out from their hiding place but your angle or sniper/arcade view is making it more difficult for you.
  • Why same tier or lower when facing head on usually beats me (destroys me as my shells do nothing)
    • Again it’s a combo of armor vs. pen and angle
  • How to know if you are spot without six sense skill
    • Tough one. I am one who thinks SS is the only real “game breaking without it” skill that should be included with every commander. Without it, the only real way to know if you’re spotted is to get shot at or be in the open where it would be obvious that you’re just sitting right there for everyone to see
    • Definitely one piece of advice I've read before is "just assume you're spotted all the time" 
  • What gear if any should be used to help in the spot and conceal areas
    • Camo/spotting is a cat and mouse combination. You want the highest view range you can get, with the highest camo rating you can get (if all you want to do is hide, see them and not be seen)
    • Camo net and binoculars are the cheapest, and portable from tank to tank, way to increase both of those, but really only make sense on lights, td’s, some meds and camo on arty. On HT’s it’s extremely rare and situational that you’d want to camo or binoc. Coated optics are still common in HT’s though.
    • Your view range has a max value. If an enemy is in the open with no camo at all, you'll see them at that range. Their camo rating, crew skills and bushes etc. all add to their camo rating (concealment). Then they begin to cancel each other out to see who sees whom.
      • For example: Your view range is 100m. The enemy is at 100m with no other camo skills/equipment. You see them. 
      • Your view range is 100m. The enemy is at 100m with 20% camo rating. You don't see them. 
        • ​In order to see them you need to either a) move to 80m (100m -20%) OR increase your spotting (view range) to 120m to offset their concealment rating. 
      • Camo/spotting is tough. Hopefully the above makes sense. 
    • To increase view range:
      • Binocs or Coated Optics on the tank
      • Situational awareness and/or recon on the crew
    • To increase camo:
      • Camo net and camo paint on the tank
      • Camo skill on the crew

 

Hope some of that helps!

 


Edited by Jhuderis, Sep 12 2019 - 22:02.


cloudwalkr #17 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 22:52

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Thanks for the shout out, boghie.  The more the merrier for Tuesday's!  

 

As usual my only requirement for those that want to show up is be ready for constructive criticism, have a friendly attitude, and no talks of rigged game or cheats being the only way to improve.

 

we go over vision range and exactly how to use/abuse it.  Side scraping, map positioning and battle flow.  

 

Any are welcome that feel they they may learn something from me.






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