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What in the... WHY?


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GeorgePreddy #21 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 18:57

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View PostBlackFive, on Sep 12 2019 - 14:53, said:


Check out the Counter- Analysis.  What he says makes sense for a single Med, perhaps one of the Bats.  Not all 3.

 

 

Maybe no one wanted to be the "sacrificial lamb".

 

Your whole team was city, there's no one to shoot anything that may have been lit, so "Why should I be the one to die uselessly" is the question the mediums were asking themselves.  Not saying it's great, just saying it's not all that wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



atila_xD #22 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:13

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Sep 12 2019 - 05:39, said:

 

None of you 3 are playing "wrong".  (or wrongly, which is grammatically correct)

 

There's nothing wrong with medium tanks using soft (or hard) cover.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok wannabe 



BlackFive #23 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:18

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View PostGeorgePreddy, on Sep 12 2019 - 18:57, said:

 

 

Maybe no one wanted to be the "sacrificial lamb".

 

Your whole team was city, there's no one to shoot anything that may have been lit, so "Why should I be the one to die uselessly" is the question the mediums were asking themselves.  Not saying it's great, just saying it's not all that wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


George - if the game is a hurr-durr look at my precious stats game... then that is pretty stupid play.  They're setting themselves up for a one-to-two shot 'defense' while receiving 4 to who knows how many shots in return.

 

Most of us started out when "Information was King" and I really don't know when the thing turned into 'but mah stats' or even why; the point is... if you play to lose you will likely succeed.



Avalon304 #24 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:27

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View PostBlackFive, on Sep 12 2019 - 10:52, said:


Yep - 4 of us in the field.  We had two Bats, the 430, and me.  Yes - a likely 'parity, not over-match' situation.  … and yes, the possibility of being over-matched.  What is lacking is information.

.

And this is the thing that bothers me.  Again, I point out the time-stamp.

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Not one of our 3 Top Tier Meds decided to take the 'lets get an aggressive look / gather information' run through the field.  Not the most-likely to survive being shot at RUMed, nor either of the So-fast-I-Could-Be-a-Scout Bats.  Instead, the two that were near me jostled with me during the whole deployment phase to see who could get to the 'good booshes'.  The other went straight for the building you see him at and stopped.  So right off the bat* we have a problem.  Without 45 seconds having passed into the match, we have ceded any/all information gathering to the Red Team.

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I will agree, that those are (usually / often) great defensive positions.  They are also exceptionally flawed positions when your team does not have 'eyes forward'.  The problem being that when you can, finally, detect someone from either boosh - they can also detect you the moment you shoot; and then all their friends back at the ridgeline (double bushed or not) can fire upon you from multiple angles.  The positions are only good when you have EYES FORWARD.  Which we did not.

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And with absolutely no effort to 'keep the Red Team' honest, there was nothing to keep their 'back of the field, good defensive position' campers from moving up... all the way up... to the ridgeline and city.

 

I doubt that this blind camping strat did anything positive for anyone's WN8 scores - and so not only was the initial deployment flawed, the entire mentality of our Meds was flawed from before the timer ever stopped clicking.

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(pun acknowledged)

 

I can see the timer. The bats making that aggressive spotting location likely result in them either losing valuable health or getting outright nuked from stuff on the back of the map. As it is, the E 100, 430 and other medium are in positions that counter an aggressive spotting run made by any tank on your team. All it takes is one lucky snapshot for the E 100 to shave 750 damage+ off of whomever is dumb enough to get spotted first. Both the enemy mediums are in a hull down and have good fields of fire on to your side of the field. An aggressive spotting run isnt a good idea here. Its just not. The risk is not worth the reward.

 

Looking at where your Bats are positioned the one next to you is in a good spot to see the 0 line and help blunt a push there. The one on your left at the buidlign is at an ok position to pivot between spotting the 6 line and spotting the 7-9 lines. Youre 430 is camoed up and waiting, and you appear to be faffing about in the open with your side facing the possible avenue of enemy advancement, because youre too busy worried about what your mediums are doing and appear to be less concerned with setting up for a proper defense.

 

This is the point where you let the match develop and see what of the enemy team has gone city, and then assess whether or not you can pressure field without getting obliterated, as it is though 45 seconds intot he match, any form of aggression in field is likely to end up with the enemy team getting a free pick on the first person stupid enough to get themselves spotted.



atila_xD #25 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:31

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View PostBlackFive, on Sep 12 2019 - 19:18, said:


George - if the game is a hurr-durr look at my precious stats game... then that is pretty stupid play.  They're setting themselves up for a one-to-two shot 'defense' while receiving 4 to who knows how many shots in return.

 

Most of us started out when "Information was King" and I really don't know when the thing turned into 'but mah stats' or even why; the point is... if you play to lose you will likely succeed.

what if i focus on DPG for My yummy stats and wn8? :sunglasses:


Edited by atila_xD, Sep 12 2019 - 19:32.


Copacetic #26 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:41

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Who won this game?

BlackFive #27 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:42

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 12 2019 - 19:27, said:

 

lll

 

This is the point where you let the match develop and see what of the enemy team has gone city, and then assess whether or not you can pressure field without getting obliterated, as it is though 45 seconds intot he match, any form of aggression in field is likely to end up with the enemy team getting a free pick on the first person stupid enough to get themselves spotted.

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I won't argue with you that from this point forward, waiting to see what develops is the correct play.  There's really no other good alternative.  That's not my point.

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My point is that, when the count-down timer hit "Zero" (and neither team knew anything about where anyone (Green or Red) was going to go... Their plan out of the gate was to kemp boosh at the back of the map.

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Those Top Tier Meds raced a TD for a TD spot*.  They did not 'make a correct decision' or 'play a med smartly because of what is developing on the map' - they planned to camp the redline from the start.

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The one guy who I have any sympathy for is the other Bat - who probably read the situation as you describe (he was the late-comer to the field) and tried to make the best of it.  In fact it was he who spotted the Red Tanks you see at the edge of town.

But I gotta tell you: I'm a bit concerned at your certainty about the ridgeline run: it's almost de-rigueur out of the gate for a Med or Light to make that diagonal field pass (and no E-100 can hit you from the low ground of the road during the initial pass) - to gather info.  When no one does it, yes, you make the best of it... but its the fact that no one did it in this match it that created the problem.  Even if you do make the pass and see a strong push; there's lots of hard cover to do a Larry into that still allows you some measure of vision control. 

 

If your point is that "No one should rush the ridge, now, given the information we have" I can accept that.

However, if your point is "The correct move out of the gate is to rush the redline and kemp boosh" - I have to say that judgement is flawed.

 

*Phrase used knowing there are no "TD Spots" or "Heavy Spots" etc. - but there are places on the map and actions that can be taken in different tanks at different times that can have far reaching effects on gameplay.  Redline camping from the beginning as the plan for a Top Tier Med is not generally a smart move.


Edited by BlackFive, Sep 12 2019 - 19:48.


BlackFive #28 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:43

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View PostCopacetic, on Sep 12 2019 - 19:41, said:

Who won this game?


Red.



spud_tuber #29 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:47

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First off, that's not 3 top tier mediums.  The 430 is tier 9, only the bats are T10.  

Secondly, yes, they(and you) have surrendered map control.  At this point,  all 4 of you are counting on the enemy to play stupid(which, let's face it, is an even bet) instead of looking for chances to force mistakes on the enemy.

I agree with your assessment of the danger a competent enemy presents to your position with the current deployment. Whether the enemy is competent enough to take advantage of the situation is of course questionable.  

The question then becomes, since you can't make your teammates play smart, what did you do about it? Are there places you could have moved up to along that road that would have allowed you to passive scout for the 2 bats?  I'm not familiar enough with that area to say, but if so that was probably your best bet.

spud_tuber #30 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:50

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View PostBlackFive, on Sep 12 2019 - 12:43, said:


Red.

Got a replay?



BlackFive #31 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:52

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View Postspud_tuber, on Sep 12 2019 - 19:47, said:

First off, that's not 3 top tier mediums. The 430 is tier 9, only the bats are T10.

Secondly, yes, they(and you) have surrendered map control. At this point, all 4 of you are counting on the enemy to play stupid(which, let's face it, is an even bet) instead of looking for chances to force mistakes on the enemy.

I agree with your assessment of the danger a competent enemy presents to your position with the current deployment. Whether the enemy is competent enough to take advantage of the situation is of course questionable.

The question then becomes, since you can't make your teammates play smart, what did you do about it? Are there places you could have moved up to along that road that would have allowed you to passive scout for the 2 bats? I'm not familiar enough with that area to say, but if so that was probably your best bet.


I actually did just that; moved about half-way to 3/4 of the way up the road trying to get eyes on the corner (mostly to let the Bat in the buildings see something or support him if necessary).  The spot in the back can really only shoot forward to about 3/4 of the way to the 'intersection' near the town because of the buildings.  I later collapsed back onto the same area as the two meds and we made a final 'stand' from there.



Avalon304 #32 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 19:53

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View PostBlackFive, on Sep 12 2019 - 11:42, said:

.

I won't argue with you that from this point forward, waiting to see what develops is the correct play.  There's really no other good alternative.  That's not my point.

.

My point is that, when the count-down timer hit "Zero" (and neither team knew anything about where anyone (Green or Red) was going to go... Their plan out of the gate was to kemp boosh at the back of the map.

.

Those Top Tier Meds raced a TD for a TD spot.  They did not 'make a correct decision' or 'play a med smartly because of what is developing on the map' - they planned to camp the redline from the start.

.

The one guy who I have any sympathy for is the other Bat - who probably read the situation as you describe (he was the late-comer to the field) and tried to make the best of it.  In fact it was he who spotted the Red Tanks you see at the edge of town.

But I gotta tell you: I'm a bit concerned at your certainty about the ridgeline run: it's almost de-rigueur out of the gate for a Med or Light to make that diagonal field pass (and no E-100 can hit you from the low ground of the road during the initial pass) - to gather info.  When no one does it, yes, you make the best of it... but its the fact that no one does it that creates the problem.  Even if you do make the pass and see a strong push; there's lots of hard cover to do a Larry into that still allows you some measure of vision control. 

 

If your point is that "No one should rush the ridge, now, given the information we have" I can accept that.

However, if your point is "The correct move out of the gate is to rush the redline and kemp boosh" - I have to say that judgement is flawed.

 

From the point the count down timer hits 0 all I need to do is pan my camera around to see where my own team is going. And judging by the fact that many of them went city in your shot, it wouldnt have taken more than 5 seconds for the anyone on your team to know where your team is going.

 

My judgement is that, given that your bats can see how your team deployed that yes, picking defensive positions immediately is the best call. Not running the ridge trying to get spots. That gives the enemy just as much info as you gain from it, and because of the bushes along the middle ridge you actually have to expose a good portion of your tank to the enemy side of the field. Once the enemy team sees a Bat get spotted and then run away it tells them that youre light on that side of the map and that they can be aggressive, and while the E 100 probably wouldnt have been exactly where he is, the two mediums would have probably been crossing the road to the hull down when your Bat got there to run the ridge resulting in them getting free shots, again discounting anything else that the enemy team put there (which form the partial team list I can see is probably 3 more mediums and atleast one tank destroyer).



BlackFive #33 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 20:01

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View Postspud_tuber, on Sep 12 2019 - 19:50, said:

Got a replay?


Yes - but I'm not going to post it.  I thought about it; but the picture and what I've written accurately describes the first 45 seconds of the game (which is what we're talking about here).  After that it was pretty much a blow out; the city team failed, and simultaneously after some 'gentle encouragement' our Meds did move some distance up toward the village.  Needless to say, we all lost.

 

I think at this point, the replay would only be a distraction, and possibly serve as a name-and-shame charge to which I don't want to subject myself to

.



Boghie #34 Posted Sep 12 2019 - 21:17

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Avalon, I have to differ here - which is probably a mistake:hiding:

 

In 45 seconds the Red Team managed to push a HT and two MTs into commanding positions in the center of the map.  It is obvious the two MTs are going for the center road  nook - which is probably a bit of a mistake since there really is only room for one.  The HT might be heading for the other nook - the one that overlooks the village, or might be just taking advantage of the vision proffered by the two mediums to just push everybody back.  My guess is that latter.  

 

Green Team bee lined to a Chai Sniping position that did not matter in the game.  It's only value is to get some damage as the Red Team starts to probe known TD zones normally left to the end-game.  Only the Bat in hard cover can take a shot without getting obliterated.  The little coven of TDs (all are TDs in that soft cover location) with no vision control on K0 are just waiting to die.

 

Here is my read on the progress of the battle:

  1. Chai Snipers move to K0, piss OP off and get him out of his game.
  2. The other Bat probably was going to push diagonal.  He instead saw the hapless chai sniping positions taken and went full defense with passive spotting.
  3. The T-10 probably noticed the field and decided to hang back in a cap defensive position
  4. The E75 is probably returning in an attempt to defend a push through the village

 

So, now there is no real tank advantage in the city.  You  have two Chai Snipers waiting around pissing off much of the team, you have a Bat in full defense because of that, you have an E-75 coming back because of that, and you have a T-10 trying to get into a cap defense position because of the mess in the field.  The city will be overrun and vision control will be completely ceded to the enemy on all fronts as some LT starts scanning the coven from the village.

 

This game was lost on deployment.  Four players are adjusting to the chai snipers.  My guess it that it was a route.

 

If the two MTs in K0 were trying to be effective toward the win they probably should have taken defensible positions nearish the other Bat where they could have flexed as the situation unfolded.  That would have left PO on his own and very likely soon dead, but now they are all targets of opportunity or worse, crap you clean up after the important parts of the map are taken.  One Red LT in the village tells you all you need to know.  In fact, if either of the two Red MTs or the E75 have any vision equipment/skills you don't need anything in the village.

 






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