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Whatever Happened To The Heavy Rebalance?

E-100 T110E5 IS-4

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Avalon304 #21 Posted Oct 03 2019 - 13:03

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 03 2019 - 03:28, said:

 

Yes, there are several tanks. But I would say they are not a large number. And quite frankly, considering the fact that WG used to nerf premium vehicles, WG should have more integrity and continue that stance and nerf every and ALL vehicles it deems necessary. Whiners be damned. WG can even go as far as allow players to refund them for Gold. WG would benefit more in the long term from better balance and they and the playerbase should recognise that.

 

But a select handful of premium vehicles having armour so strong and WG doesn't want to nerf premium tanks is not a strong enough case to convince me that buffing HP and damage and leaving stupid levels of armour in that can only be defeated by premium rounds. I also do not believe a simple damage nerf or the alternate to that tested in Sandbox is enough to address premium ammo and the issues it caused.

 

Yes, we had that before. Then people spammed premium ammo. Then we got the overbuffing of armour which lead to further balance issues and lead to where we are now. Premium ammo has had always caused issues before armour was overbuffed. The PzIV/M4 derp HEAT spam episode that caused premium HEAT ammo to be nerfed in addition to ROF nerfs to the derps to the M4 and Jumbo when they had no issues prior when just shooting HE, the (HEA)T69 issue which also caused its premium ammo to be nerfed, then the FV-215b 183 prem HESH one shotting Tier 8s and crippling Tier 9s and 10s which also lead to nerfs and the periodical buffs to the Maus prior to its massive buffs are examples of premium ammo causing players to complain and resulted in nerfs that occur fairly quickly.

 

What premium ammo did to what we had back then was made vehicles that would angled their armour useless. So they cannot fight their way out, they cannot run away and they cannot angle to save themselves. The E100 was famous because angling its turret was a technique all E100 drivers had to learn. Now, angled it is still penetrable. Now it is one of the vehicles needing buffs. It didn't get nerfed but now it cannot perform because one of its characteristics to make itself tougher is useless.

 

Will just buffing its HP enough to make up for that? I am not convinced that it will because it will need more buffs since it will still lose HP regardless if it tries to angle its turret. I am not convinced its survivability will be any better than now since players would be more inclined to load premium ammo. So slow armoured tanks will get shot more often with premium ammo so I see little positive improvement to their survivability if at all. I would rather take no damage from some shots, more so when I angle at the cost of being able to do damage, than having my buffed HP being easily chipped away since more would players just switch to special ammo.

 

Also continually buffing vehicles just makes power creep more of an issue and would require urgent look at lower tiers which WG has been straddling their about it.

 

That is why I prefer the nerfing of premium ammo. Their penetration should be 20-40mm more than standard depending on tier. Higher tiers get less of an increase especially for vehicles with good penetration already. Damage would be reduced but not alot. Between 15-20%. Price reduce to be equal to standard. And this will ultimate so that we can nerf overbuffed and excessive armour in the game.

 

As far as I know theyve never deliberately nerfed premiums. There was the Super Pershing, as the only premium I can remember that was nerfed and it was unintentional. Premiums have, to my recollection,  always been off the table when its come to nerfing them, unless its the result of a game mechanic change (so they could, theoretically nerf gold penetration across the board by whatever percent, but changing the individual armor of a tank would get them in trouble or making the tank fire slower ot whatever). I dont agree with it, and I do think they should be nerfed accordingly if they are too OP. But they arent, so here we are. Confronted with this situation we have to go the other way, and accomplish the same thing. As a bonus anyone who fires standard rounds as a majority of their shells is getting a flat out buff, so hooray for me.

 

Premium ammo was fine up until the armor stared getting buffed. It was fine for the years after it was made available for credits. It just was. Up until we started buffing the armor in the game. You never "needed" it before Murazor and his armor buffs entered the game. (You dont need it now either, to be completely fair, but you didnt need it then either).

 

The E 100 can still angle its turret to HEAT, it just takes better management of the angles. Armor angling is still a thing, its always been a thing, even during the persion of time directly after premium ammo became available for credits. The T110E5 still has 340mm penetration HEAT. Its had it since its been in the game. The E 100 can still bounce it. The E 100 can still angle its turret side and still bounce the 330 HEAT from RU mediums. Its not impossible to bounce things in the E 100, its just hard (and requires the opponent shooting at you to be willing to shoot the angled side of the turret, which itself is a different discussion). Armor penetration hasnt actually changed in this game when it comes to premium ammo, not in any significant way. The 113. The WZ 5A. The Obj. 277. Most of the tier 10 heavy tanks that fire HEAT have 340mm of pen at most. Most mediums have 330. This is no different than 4 years ago. TDs present a bigger problem, but even their premium pen hasnt actually gone up, the E3 and E4 still have their 375mm APCR. The JP E 100 still has the 420 HEAT, but that hasnt changed either. Premium wasnt a problem until invincibility shield armor became a problem.

 

Like everyone says its harder to bounce gold now, but the reality is, it hasnt actually changed. People have just forgotten how. Premium ammo has never been a "100% pen" button, no matter how much we all like to meme about pressing 2 for skill. Players arent going to be more inclined to load premium under the new system, they'll be dealing less damage for way more credits. Im certainly not going to be convinced to fire more premium just to be making even less credits (compared to now) than I could firing standard rounds.

 

Power creep only applies if newer vehciles are more powerful than older vehicles. Buffing everythingall at once to keep the same relative power levels isnt power creep. If we were talking about just buffing, lets say the T110E5, so that it was getting more health more standard alpha and more whatever else, that would be power creep. Or introducing a completely new tank that is just more powerful than an old one (so what the Super Conqueror did to the E5), that would be power creep. A buff to every tank in the game, keeping all the same relative power levels is just a rebalance.

 

We can still nerf the armor in this game (though we cant touch premiums), and premium will still be fine because the penetration values for premium havent gone up. The Maus never suffered before. The E 100 never suffered before. It wasnt until we started buffing things to silly levels that we had problems.



SpectreHD #22 Posted Oct 03 2019 - 14:35

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 03 2019 - 20:03, said:

 

As far as I know theyve never deliberately nerfed premiums. There was the Super Pershing, as the only premium I can remember that was nerfed and it was unintentional. Premiums have, to my recollection,  always been off the table when its come to nerfing them, unless its the result of a game mechanic change (so they could, theoretically nerf gold penetration across the board by whatever percent, but changing the individual armor of a tank would get them in trouble or making the tank fire slower ot whatever). I dont agree with it, and I do think they should be nerfed accordingly if they are too OP. But they arent, so here we are. Confronted with this situation we have to go the other way, and accomplish the same thing. As a bonus anyone who fires standard rounds as a majority of their shells is getting a flat out buff, so hooray for me.

 

Premium ammo was fine up until the armor stared getting buffed. It was fine for the years after it was made available for credits. It just was. Up until we started buffing the armor in the game. You never "needed" it before Murazor and his armor buffs entered the game. (You dont need it now either, to be completely fair, but you didnt need it then either).

 

The E 100 can still angle its turret to HEAT, it just takes better management of the angles. Armor angling is still a thing, its always been a thing, even during the persion of time directly after premium ammo became available for credits. The T110E5 still has 340mm penetration HEAT. Its had it since its been in the game. The E 100 can still bounce it. The E 100 can still angle its turret side and still bounce the 330 HEAT from RU mediums. Its not impossible to bounce things in the E 100, its just hard (and requires the opponent shooting at you to be willing to shoot the angled side of the turret, which itself is a different discussion). Armor penetration hasnt actually changed in this game when it comes to premium ammo, not in any significant way. The 113. The WZ 5A. The Obj. 277. Most of the tier 10 heavy tanks that fire HEAT have 340mm of pen at most. Most mediums have 330. This is no different than 4 years ago. TDs present a bigger problem, but even their premium pen hasnt actually gone up, the E3 and E4 still have their 375mm APCR. The JP E 100 still has the 420 HEAT, but that hasnt changed either. Premium wasnt a problem until invincibility shield armor became a problem.

 

Like everyone says its harder to bounce gold now, but the reality is, it hasnt actually changed. People have just forgotten how. Premium ammo has never been a "100% pen" button, no matter how much we all like to meme about pressing 2 for skill. Players arent going to be more inclined to load premium under the new system, they'll be dealing less damage for way more credits. Im certainly not going to be convinced to fire more premium just to be making even less credits (compared to now) than I could firing standard rounds.

 

Power creep only applies if newer vehciles are more powerful than older vehicles. Buffing everythingall at once to keep the same relative power levels isnt power creep. If we were talking about just buffing, lets say the T110E5, so that it was getting more health more standard alpha and more whatever else, that would be power creep. Or introducing a completely new tank that is just more powerful than an old one (so what the Super Conqueror did to the E5), that would be power creep. A buff to every tank in the game, keeping all the same relative power levels is just a rebalance.

 

We can still nerf the armor in this game (though we cant touch premiums), and premium will still be fine because the penetration values for premium havent gone up. The Maus never suffered before. The E 100 never suffered before. It wasnt until we started buffing things to silly levels that we had problems.

 

They nerfed the Type-59 and then removed it from sale. Yeah, it is hard to remember when the last time a premium was nerfed because for the longest time Tier 8s were balanced as Tier 7.5s. Apart from the Type-59, most premium tanks were balanced worse than tech tree vehicles even those without preferential MM.

 

That is just BS that premium ammo was fine before they started overbuffing. If it was "fine", why even buff armour? There was already complaints up to the Rubicon disaster where WG stated making armour have its role returned was stated as one of the issues they would address after Rubicon. The only reason it was "fine" because it wasn't spammed as much. But the last 4-5 years to now they have been used more commonly. You may believe otherwise but armour was buffed in response to premium ammo. It was never needed before, but then people were of course lazy, and don't want to aim, for both good and bad players, that they use it the moment the situation became slightly harder i.e. they wanted to still penetrate angled heavies frontally through their thickest part. And because of that we got those excessive buffs. Players didn't need them but they used them anyways so much so that it becomes needed for specific vehicles.

 

Yeah, it can bounce, it can angle but not to the amount it could before. That severely impacted it. Just because your criteria it is possible doesn't discount that is bounces to a much lesser degree. So much so it is considered so bad now when it wasn't before. Sure, newer Tier 10s introduced is a factor to why it is bad now but so is premium ammo as another factor. You can tell me how much they can pen now and back then. But you cannot tell me their increased usage have not impacted tanks and balance. 

 

It doesn't need to penetrate 100%. It penetrating way more than standard is more than enough. Because it is the difference between doing no damage and actually doing damage. Able to penetrate 60-80% when the chances were way lower gives a heavy impact. Just because premium ammo has a small chance to not penetrate does not undermine its impact on the game.

 

I say there is power creep because there will be vehicles getting other buffs. This "rebalance" won't solve anything with the E100 or the IS-4. Any buffs not related to just the pointless game wide HP and damage increase will lead to powercreep. I prefer addressing premium ammo (nerfing penetration and damage) itself as it will have a direct effect on tanks. 

 

And no, if they are buffing the HP and damage, then I will not support an armour nerf as the high penetration is still there. Players WILL not aim for weakspots. They will just more easily switch to premium ammo. Probably even more so than now because I am sure their cost will be looked at as well and most likely reduced.

 

The Maus suffered because it received two buffs before the stupid one. The first increased turret armour front by at least 10mm, I think it was 20mm. The second buff greatly buffed its gun handling and aim time. The devs themselves said the justification for at least the second buff was that no one was playing it. Back then, Tier X meds could penetrate the cheeks easily as the Maus was aiming. It could angle but it could not aim and fire in time when it decided to take a shot. Hence the buff. But as premium ammo used increased, angled Maus turrets were weak and they couldn't retaliate when required. Then we got the current stupid buffs.

 

The E100 was always just an ok vehicle because its penetration was low. It's saving grace was its alpha. But it could also spam premium ammo which made up for its low penetration. The issue for the E100 was that it needed to angle and that option has now been severely reduced. An Ok vehicle without one of its main traits means a poor vehicle now.

 

Same goes for the Type 4/5. Players had two big weakspots but you know what? They'd rather load gold and shoot it anywhere than go for those weakspots. There is a reason WG stated no one were playing them despite being recent additions at that time. Laziness of bad players and good players just want all the advantages is why players spam premium ammo. 

 

Unfortunately, I cannot be convinced that these vehicles were "fine" prior to Murazor. They may be earlier in the game's life where premium ammo was not widely used because the game was younger, players do not have much credits so maximising profit was desirable. Not so now as players got more credits and were willing to use them and even don't mind losing credits. I also have not been persuaded that premium ammo did not result in the overbuffing of certain vehicles. Overarmoured tanks did not come out of nowhere. But what was around from the beginning is premium ammo. A mechanic, that has all the attributes of pay to win, was widely used in CWs that gave a competitive edge being made available to everyone. It's impact was not immediately felt because it was still exclusively used in CWs and that the mentality of the playerbase back then was to maximise profits because the game was young and players want to be able to afford tanks as they progressed up the tree despite the higher tier spread back then. This is my position and quite frankly I have not seen anyone come up with an argument that counters what I see and experienced from playing this game since Closed Beta.

 

As for not touching premiums, I would still touch them. It is not like there are many that needs to be touched anyway. Alternatively, I would stop selling the offending premium vehicles and just make a more balance version of them and sell those instead.



Trauglodyte #23 Posted Oct 03 2019 - 14:53

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 02 2019 - 14:34, said:

 

What I do not like about the changes, despite accomplishing the same thing, is that nerfing premium ammo does the same thing as well and does not require change changing tank HP and alpha damage. Just nerfing premium ammo is less work and does not require a sweeping change to two aspects of a game. Basically, there is no reason for a game wide increase to HP and alpha so there is no reason to go this route to address a completely different issue. Also I do not think it is necessary to subject players to having to re-familiarise themselves to the values of this game after all this years. The fact that WG somehow though this was a potential solution instead of addressing the issue directly puzzles me greatly.

 

The one thing that I think a lot of people are overlooking with the changes proposed on the SuperTest is the concept that it does, point of fact, allow WarGaming to nerf premium tanks without directly nerfing them.  Case in point, we ALL know that the Defender is broken.  Since it was sold for real money, WarGaming isn't going to touch it.  But, let's look at what could be done to it, through the lens of the promoted changes.

 

Defender vs Tiger II on Live

 

Defender has stupid amounts of armor, 1,500 health, a 440 alpha (w/ 225 pen), and 1,835 DPM with a 43.14 second (4 round fired) TTK (time-to-kil)

Tiger II has next to no armor, 1,600 health, a 320 alpha (w/ 225 pen), and 1,925 DPM with a 39.88 second (5 round fired) TTK

 

Defender vs Tiger II on Supertest (making this up as an example)

 

Defender still has stupid amounts of armor, 1,650 health, a 510 alpha (w/ 225 pen), and 2,127 DPM with a 43.14 second (4 round fired) TTK

Tiger II still has no armor, 2,000 health, a 420 alpha (w/ 225 pen), and 2,528 DPM with a 29.91 second (4 round fired) TTK

 

*NOTE:  The TTK was the Tiger II gun vs Defender and the Defender gun vs Tiger II.

 

SO, through the changes, they can choose to not adjust the alpha and health increases, thus rebalancing a tank that cannot otherwise be currently changed.  The concept is quite compelling, all around.  Plus, through the changes, it provides an instant ability to go ahead and rebalance everything, no matter the repercussions.  We call that a 'win win'.



Avalon304 #24 Posted Oct 03 2019 - 21:21

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 03 2019 - 06:35, said:

 

They nerfed the Type-59 and then removed it from sale. Yeah, it is hard to remember when the last time a premium was nerfed because for the longest time Tier 8s were balanced as Tier 7.5s. Apart from the Type-59, most premium tanks were balanced worse than tech tree vehicles even those without preferential MM.

 

That is just BS that premium ammo was fine before they started overbuffing. If it was "fine", why even buff armour? There was already complaints up to the Rubicon disaster where WG stated making armour have its role returned was stated as one of the issues they would address after Rubicon. The only reason it was "fine" because it wasn't spammed as much. But the last 4-5 years to now they have been used more commonly. You may believe otherwise but armour was buffed in response to premium ammo. It was never needed before, but then people were of course lazy, and don't want to aim, for both good and bad players, that they use it the moment the situation became slightly harder i.e. they wanted to still penetrate angled heavies frontally through their thickest part. And because of that we got those excessive buffs. Players didn't need them but they used them anyways so much so that it becomes needed for specific vehicles.

 

Yeah, it can bounce, it can angle but not to the amount it could before. That severely impacted it. Just because your criteria it is possible doesn't discount that is bounces to a much lesser degree. So much so it is considered so bad now when it wasn't before. Sure, newer Tier 10s introduced is a factor to why it is bad now but so is premium ammo as another factor. You can tell me how much they can pen now and back then. But you cannot tell me their increased usage have not impacted tanks and balance. 

 

It doesn't need to penetrate 100%. It penetrating way more than standard is more than enough. Because it is the difference between doing no damage and actually doing damage. Able to penetrate 60-80% when the chances were way lower gives a heavy impact. Just because premium ammo has a small chance to not penetrate does not undermine its impact on the game.

 

I say there is power creep because there will be vehicles getting other buffs. This "rebalance" won't solve anything with the E100 or the IS-4. Any buffs not related to just the pointless game wide HP and damage increase will lead to powercreep. I prefer addressing premium ammo (nerfing penetration and damage) itself as it will have a direct effect on tanks. 

 

And no, if they are buffing the HP and damage, then I will not support an armour nerf as the high penetration is still there. Players WILL not aim for weakspots. They will just more easily switch to premium ammo. Probably even more so than now because I am sure their cost will be looked at as well and most likely reduced.

 

The Maus suffered because it received two buffs before the stupid one. The first increased turret armour front by at least 10mm, I think it was 20mm. The second buff greatly buffed its gun handling and aim time. The devs themselves said the justification for at least the second buff was that no one was playing it. Back then, Tier X meds could penetrate the cheeks easily as the Maus was aiming. It could angle but it could not aim and fire in time when it decided to take a shot. Hence the buff. But as premium ammo used increased, angled Maus turrets were weak and they couldn't retaliate when required. Then we got the current stupid buffs.

 

The E100 was always just an ok vehicle because its penetration was low. It's saving grace was its alpha. But it could also spam premium ammo which made up for its low penetration. The issue for the E100 was that it needed to angle and that option has now been severely reduced. An Ok vehicle without one of its main traits means a poor vehicle now.

 

Same goes for the Type 4/5. Players had two big weakspots but you know what? They'd rather load gold and shoot it anywhere than go for those weakspots. There is a reason WG stated no one were playing them despite being recent additions at that time. Laziness of bad players and good players just want all the advantages is why players spam premium ammo. 

 

Unfortunately, I cannot be convinced that these vehicles were "fine" prior to Murazor. They may be earlier in the game's life where premium ammo was not widely used because the game was younger, players do not have much credits so maximising profit was desirable. Not so now as players got more credits and were willing to use them and even don't mind losing credits. I also have not been persuaded that premium ammo did not result in the overbuffing of certain vehicles. Overarmoured tanks did not come out of nowhere. But what was around from the beginning is premium ammo. A mechanic, that has all the attributes of pay to win, was widely used in CWs that gave a competitive edge being made available to everyone. It's impact was not immediately felt because it was still exclusively used in CWs and that the mentality of the playerbase back then was to maximise profits because the game was young and players want to be able to afford tanks as they progressed up the tree despite the higher tier spread back then. This is my position and quite frankly I have not seen anyone come up with an argument that counters what I see and experienced from playing this game since Closed Beta.

 

As for not touching premiums, I would still touch them. It is not like there are many that needs to be touched anyway. Alternatively, I would stop selling the offending premium vehicles and just make a more balance version of them and sell those instead.

 

I can find no references to the Type being nerf, and if it was, youre talking about 2 tanks in how many years? That doesnt exactly show that WG has always nerfed premiums. Its not really a good argument that you can only point out 1 other tank here.

 

It was fine. But you have a large segment of this game (worldwide even), who are bad at it, who think armor should be an invincibility shield that bounces everything. Who complain when something dares to penetrate their tank.

 

Armor was not buffed in response to premium ammo, it was buffed in response to bad players thinking their tanks should be invulnerable. Thats why. There was a period of time (years) where the game was in one of its better states, this period of time coincided with the period of time between when premium ammo was made available for credits and the time when Murazor started buffing the armor of every heavy (and medium) in the game to be far more of the invincibility shield that people wanted. This period of time was great. Gold wasnt a problem, people still knew how to angle armor.

 

Tanks like the E 100 and Maus were fine. The E 100 is still capable of bouncing gold, just as it was 3-4 years ago, during that period of time I was talking about. Its just no one knows how to do it anymore. Tier 10 mediums can still easily penetrate the Maus' cheeks with standard rounds when it turns to aim and fire, nothing has really changed there. The E 100 in particular was probably one of the better tier 10 heavy tanks back then.

 

The same doesnt even god for the Type 4 and 5, because the major complaint wasnt that it got spammed with gold, it was that it couldnt be angled at all because it exposed those weakspots youre mentioning (they were the two shoulder plates, which you wound up flattening out if you tried to angle the tank). It was never about the gold ammo. (The other complaint at the time was that the guns were garbage).

 

Youre experiences and vision of this game are coloured by your absolute hate for Wargaming and anything theyve done, because its not what Ive seen and experienced in this game.



SpectreHD #25 Posted Oct 04 2019 - 19:02

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 04 2019 - 04:21, said:

 

I can find no references to the Type being nerf, and if it was, youre talking about 2 tanks in how many years? That doesnt exactly show that WG has always nerfed premiums. Its not really a good argument that you can only point out 1 other tank here.

 

It was fine. But you have a large segment of this game (worldwide even), who are bad at it, who think armor should be an invincibility shield that bounces everything. Who complain when something dares to penetrate their tank.

 

Armor was not buffed in response to premium ammo, it was buffed in response to bad players thinking their tanks should be invulnerable. Thats why. There was a period of time (years) where the game was in one of its better states, this period of time coincided with the period of time between when premium ammo was made available for credits and the time when Murazor started buffing the armor of every heavy (and medium) in the game to be far more of the invincibility shield that people wanted. This period of time was great. Gold wasnt a problem, people still knew how to angle armor.

 

Tanks like the E 100 and Maus were fine. The E 100 is still capable of bouncing gold, just as it was 3-4 years ago, during that period of time I was talking about. Its just no one knows how to do it anymore. Tier 10 mediums can still easily penetrate the Maus' cheeks with standard rounds when it turns to aim and fire, nothing has really changed there. The E 100 in particular was probably one of the better tier 10 heavy tanks back then.

 

The same doesnt even god for the Type 4 and 5, because the major complaint wasnt that it got spammed with gold, it was that it couldnt be angled at all because it exposed those weakspots youre mentioning (they were the two shoulder plates, which you wound up flattening out if you tried to angle the tank). It was never about the gold ammo. (The other complaint at the time was that the guns were garbage).

 

Youre experiences and vision of this game are coloured by your absolute hate for Wargaming and anything theyve done, because its not what Ive seen and experienced in this game.

 

Yeah, it was a long time ago. And yeah, it is one example because it was one of the their first premium tanks they released that was very very good especially for a preferential MM tank. That was why it was removed from the store as well which was kinda weird since they nerfed it so why even remove it from sale. Maybe because so many people bought it that it screwed up the matchmaker.

 

Bad players complain they want invincible armour is a stupid argument and quite frankly does not prove anything. Because WG, since SerB, know exactly who to listen to. You think the regular playerbase has that much influence? Lol. I can understand the complaints coming from players who do angle and still get penetrated through their thickest part. But WG has always looked at their numbers to see if it backs up player complaints. Their biggest source of feedback is the Russian server. You want to tell me you went over there forum and read their feedback that they want invincible armour? You blame the players but which players? EU? Tiny NA and Asia server? Seriously, get over yourself, mate.

 

The period of time you mentioned was only good in the first half. The latter half as premium ammo became more common was when things went downhill and then continued to go down when Murazor took over. Even then in that golden era premium ammo caused issues including ones that cause major issues in all servers for e.g:

  1.  The M4/Pz. IV HEAT derp destroying matches at their tier.
  2.  The use of HEAT on the T69 medium tank that increased its power that it was nerfed soon after.
  3.  Premium HESH on the FV215b 183 destroying matches in was in.

 

If the Maus was "fine" why did it receive buffs from two patches in that supposed great state of the game? And you know what buff players I read want at that time? Better DPM. Not more armour although the first buffed increased turret cheeks by 20mm. The second better gun handling to allow the Maus better chances to retaliate. Players didn't mind getting penetrated when it looked directly at enemies as long as they could also retaliate after they angled. But then things became stupid because players just switch to skill rounds to penetrate the same spot but on an angled turret. The E100? By how much can it bounce? Enough to actually matter? If it did, players would learn to angle they way players learned to angle back then when the game was even harder. But no, it may get the occasional bounce, it suffered the moment everyone just used skill rounds. It was a decent tank back then when players didn't fire premium rounds as often as they did during the latter half of the "great state" and utterly useless now. If the E100 was fine, I wonder why it is useless in CWs for years even if the good players playing CWs would know how to angle.

 

Type 4/5 does have its issues and its angling does require hard cover. Doesn't change the fact that players on here said they switch to premium for the Type 4/5 even way before they were buff. Hey, if you can so readily believe what people post here as irrefutable evidence then so can I. So premium ammo and its other issues were the cause of the buff. The Type 4/5 had issues and premium ammo was one of them.

 

And just like premium ammo causing the balance issues we have now, my current experiences and vision of WoT did not result from my hate for WG and their nonsensical design choices. WG themselves caused it. I have been here since Closed Beta. I played the game extensively upon release and so I have experienced what premium ammo has done. Tanks that were once usable became redundant for example the KV-4 (which had to be buffed) and Churchill Black Prince.

 

And quite frankly you need to get over yourself. Your readiness to put the playerbase at fault for overbuffed armour based on some posts you read on here and on WoT blogs is not evidence nor a strong argument. WG has always referred to their stats. You actually think they listen solely on the playerbase especially on players that want invincible armour? I don't have a high opinion of WG but I even know they are not that dumb.







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