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[ST] Dual Barreled Soviets


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DomoSapien #1 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 16:59

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Commanders!  

 

Today is a special day; two Soviet heavy tanks sporting double-barreled guns are heading for the Supertest. We’ll be covering both test vehicles as well as giving an overview of the new mechanic.  

Please note: The characteristics and stats mentioned below are not set in stone and can be adjusted before the vehicles hit the live server 

 

IS-3 II, Tier IX Heavy 

 

The main appeal of all the vehicles with double-barreled guns is obviously firepower. The top configuration of the IS-3-II boasts two 122mm guns, each with an alpha of 390 points, so one salvo will deal close to 800 damage. More to it, the gun has enviable stabilization, its dispersion amounts to 0.4 m at 100 m and penetrates enemy armor 243 mm thick with a standard AP shell and 292 mm with a special APCR round. 

 

The firing mechanic has its own peculiarities when compared to any vehicle currently in World of Tanks. Just like the rest of the double-barreled vehicles, the IS-3 II has three different firing modes: cyclical, double shot and sequential. The reload time for each barrel is 10.7 s, meaning that firing in cyclical mode will enable you to deliver damage approximately once every 10 seconds (the left one will fire after the right, and vice versa, with the switching time amounting to 3.5 s). Should both be loaded, you can fire a double shot: its preparation time is 3 s. The only downside to this spectacular shot is that after it, both guns will be locked for 7 seconds. 

 

Vehicles with the ability to fire two guns have one major drawback, their armor. If you dare to play these tanks, prepare yourself to be extremely cautious on the battlefield. Yes, it does have armor but it only hits decent numbers in the turret mainly, with 250 mm in the front and up to 130 mm on the sides. And don’t forget it has just 1800 hit points. 

Dynamics-wise, there are things to take into account, too. The max speed is all right (38 km/h), the specific power can be classified as average at 12.5 hp/t. That said, the vehicle doesn’t boast high traverse speed of either its turret or suspension which should be considered in close quarters combat.  

 

Before moving onto the second Soviet, we should mention that the IS-3-II’s view range is 360 meters. 

 

Update:

 

IS-3 II changes - previous had certain errors
  • chargeTime from 3 to 2.5 (preparation time for a single shot)
  • reloadLockTime from 7 to 4
  • rateTime from 3,5 to 5 (aiming time)

 


Edited by KRZYBooP, Oct 21 2019 - 16:59.


DomoSapien #2 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:00

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ST-II, Tier X Heavy  

 

It goes without saying that we couldn’t ignore the real-life project of a double-barreled tank and we couldn’t help placing it at the top of the new branch. Meet the Tier X ST-II and let’s delve into its characteristics. 

 

The ST-II is armed with two 122mm guns, each with an alpha of 440 points. With its perfect stabilization, the double-barreled gun boasts a dispersion of 0.4 m and aiming time of 2.9 s. Speaking of its armor penetration, it’s 258 mm for a standard AP shell and 340 mm for a special HEAT round. 

 

Just like other vehicles, the ST-II’s guns have their own peculiarities: it takes 11.7 s for one barrel to reload; to switch between them in cyclical mode you’ll need 3 seconds, while the time needed to prepare for a double shot is 2.5 seconds and after each double shot both barrels will be locked for 5 seconds.  

 

As you might notice, the higher the tier, the better the double-barreled system performs: a double shot is prepared faster, guns stay deactivated for less time, while shooting in cyclical mode is more convenient as it takes you less time to switch between guns. 

 

As for its survivability, the rules are the same: the turret is armored better (up to 250 mm in the front) as compared to the hull (150 mm in the front and 140 mm in sides). Yet this heavy has an ace up its sleeve, its 2,500 hit points. 

 

The view range is 390, while the dynamics is similar to same-tier Soviet heavies, with max speed reaching 40 km/h and a power-to-weight ratio of 12.2 hp/t. But beware of the turret traverse speed—it’s only 16 degree/s. 

 

Don’t overlook the fact that all high-tier vehicles with two guns have the same peculiarities in terms of gameplay. They are heavies with well-armored turrets and decent dynamics. In battle, they usually use the standard cyclical shooting, just like other tanks. But when an opportunity shows up, take advantage of the double shot option and destroy the enemy with one shot. 

 

Mechanic Overview

EXPAND

 



Blocksupstudios #3 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:19

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where's IS-4 II and IS-7 II

RagnarokBazil #4 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:20

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or Kv2-2-2

Cowcat137 #5 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:23

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It reminds me of McDonalds trying to get buzz by adding more patties and more cheese to their burgers.

_Ayreon_ #6 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:30

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Will the tier VIII IS-3 be the one to lead to these tanks? 

HOTA_CHATON #7 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:38

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Hey Domo, they need to be brought back down to Tier VIII and IX like they were originally advertised.  The way this is going, War Gaming lied, plain and simple.  There is no other way to put it and I think that all players need to point that out to them.  I know, i know they say then can do what they want and you are right but I can withhold my money for WG lying to me and the rest of us.

Edited by HOTA_CHATON, Oct 10 2019 - 17:47.


Cowcat137 #8 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:52

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Tier Ten is filling up with OP Russian freaks.

HOTA_CHATON #9 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:54

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That is like saying that all multi-shot tanks, like auto loaders, etc need to be all bumped up to the next tier because they don't function like say a T20, T34, etc.  Here we are taking known Tier VIII and IX tanks and putting them in a position to where they are going to be straight up out classed from the get go, for the average player.  Tier VIII tanks already have to meet Tier X tanks enough as it is and it can be very hard for most to even make a profit or do well given the current meta of this game.  Oh sure, there are always going to be players who are above average like Shipthenutz,Sircon, Quicky, and so forth that are going to make it look easy and make it look like they are in the right place.

 

I challenge War Gaming to let the Average Joe, Skop, George Preddy, Tsavo, and even lesser players like myself to be allowed to do the actual Supertesting on the live server to see how it really performs, not how they think it should.  Lets be fair about this and SandBox it for us to give the feed back instead of the same old supertesters who keep giving up OP tanks like the 430U, 279e, and many others.



Altwar #10 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 17:57

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I'm waiting for the T92 II HMC.  I mean if you are going to do double barrels, let's do it right!  :arta:

Volcanic_lobster_220 #11 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 18:55

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Nonononono, more Russian heavy tanks is exactly what the game doesn't need, i don't care how many people asked for double-barreled tank, this is ridiculous.

 

So do i need to start collecting XP on my IS-3 or...



cavalry11 #12 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 19:01

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Another stupid idea.

bockscar43 #13 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 19:08

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I would venture that there are more Russian tanks laying rusting than any other nations...just sayn.

Mikosah #14 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 19:16

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My thoughts are that the twin-gun mechanics are wildly over-complicated. They could have simply treated it an autoloader with a 2-shell capacity, or just have it fire both shells every time with an appropriate reload length. Trying to merge both into a single system seems like it'll be very hard to relate to (or balance against) anything else. The original dual-gun mechanic that we saw with the MTLS before the change would have honestly been better. The only thing it needed was some kind of UI indicator to let us know if one or both of our barrels are blocked by nearby terrain. 

 

And though the ST-II did at least appear in blueprints, the other twin-gun tanks did not. We don't need a whole line of these things, just the one is called for. Which leads to the next question- where do these fit on the tech tree?



nrnstraswa #15 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 19:53

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I thought this was to rework the IS-4 line? Need to know how this fits into the tech tree. Does this branch off from the KV-4 or IS-3?



Da_Craw #16 Posted Oct 10 2019 - 20:53

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View PostHOTA_CHATON, on Oct 10 2019 - 10:38, said:

Hey Domo, they need to be brought back down to Tier VIII and IX like they were originally advertised.  The way this is going, War Gaming lied, plain and simple.  There is no other way to put it and I think that all players need to point that out to them.  I know, i know they say then can do what they want and you are right but I can withhold my money for WG lying to me and the rest of us.

Agreed!  I relied on this info and made life choices around it.  in fact, my mortgage interest rate is tied to what tier the ST II is.  You'll be getting a bill for the increase in my payment and if I default and my house gets sold, I'm moving into the Austin offices.  How DARE you change what tier a pixel tank is?



Avalon304 #17 Posted Oct 11 2019 - 22:25

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Both these tank look reasonably balanced in ther initial stats, Im excited to see how they play.

 

View PostHOTA_CHATON, on Oct 10 2019 - 09:38, said:

Hey Domo, they need to be brought back down to Tier VIII and IX like they were originally advertised.  The way this is going, War Gaming lied, plain and simple.  There is no other way to put it and I think that all players need to point that out to them.  I know, i know they say then can do what they want and you are right but I can withhold my money for WG lying to me and the rest of us.

 

They were never "advertised" and anything that was brought up about them didnt include their tiers until now. And like anything thats a work in progress, the information is subject to change. There was no lie... you just made a stupid assumption based on information that could and did change. Indications also showed that the ST-2 was going to be a tier 10.

 

View PostMikosah, on Oct 10 2019 - 11:16, said:

My thoughts are that the twin-gun mechanics are wildly over-complicated. They could have simply treated it an autoloader with a 2-shell capacity, or just have it fire both shells every time with an appropriate reload length. Trying to merge both into a single system seems like it'll be very hard to relate to (or balance against) anything else. The original dual-gun mechanic that we saw with the MTLS before the change would have honestly been better. The only thing it needed was some kind of UI indicator to let us know if one or both of our barrels are blocked by nearby terrain. 

 

And though the ST-II did at least appear in blueprints, the other twin-gun tanks did not. We don't need a whole line of these things, just the one is called for. Which leads to the next question- where do these fit on the tech tree?

 

 

 If all they were were just twin barreled auto reloaders, or functioned like the MTLS (which is just a 2 round autoloader with the rounds only coming from one barrel), why bother adding them at all? Theres no reason at that point. Giving them a unique mechanic, that people actually have to learn makes them worth adding.

 

 

 


Mikosah #18 Posted Oct 11 2019 - 23:12

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 11 2019 - 15:25, said:

Both these tank look reasonably balanced in ther initial stats, Im excited to see how they play.

 

 

They were never "advertised" and anything that was brought up about them didnt include their tiers until now. And like anything thats a work in progress, the information is subject to change. There was no lie... you just made a stupid assumption based on information that could and did change. Indications also showed that the ST-2 was going to be a tier 10.

 

 

 

 If all they were were just twin barreled auto reloaders, or functioned like the MTLS (which is just a 2 round autoloader with the rounds only coming from one barrel), why bother adding them at all? Theres no reason at that point. Giving them a unique mechanic, that people actually have to learn makes them worth adding.

 

 

 

Is the paradigm now that any new tank needs a totally new mechanic to warrant being added to the game? Besides that, there's plenty of ways to make dual guns novel and interesting without needing this overcomplicated mess. It'll be insanely hard to balance a weapon system that can be used all these different ways. Far better to just pick one and make that work well. And given the choice, simultaneous dual-firing is the one fire mode that does the best job of justifying the entire concept. All the rest is redundant.



Avalon304 #19 Posted Oct 12 2019 - 00:01

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View PostMikosah, on Oct 11 2019 - 15:12, said:

 

Is the paradigm now that any new tank needs a totally new mechanic to warrant being added to the game? Besides that, there's plenty of ways to make dual guns novel and interesting without needing this overcomplicated mess. It'll be insanely hard to balance a weapon system that can be used all these different ways. Far better to just pick one and make that work well. And given the choice, simultaneous dual-firing is the one fire mode that does the best job of justifying the entire concept. All the rest is redundant.

 

No. But when the main feature of your tank is "it has TWO GUNS" then you should probably do something make it unique. If all youre going to do is make it a two shot auto-reloader the "TWO GUNS" part doesnt matter...

 

As for balancing the guns: they seem to have reasonably accomplished that already. Both the IS-3-II and ST-II are reasonably balanced already. They have average cyclical DPM (the IS-3-II is at 2.1k and the ST-II is at something like 2.3k), super below average Dual-Shot DPM (the IS-3-II has 1,5k and the ST-II has 1.8k) and a Burst DPM somewhere in the middle. Their armor, for the tiers they reside in is not better or worse than anything else in the tier (the IS-3-II is an IS-3 hull with 20mm more armor on the front, yet no better sloped and the ST-II is literally and ST-I hull at tier 10). The penetration of their guns is average for tier. Their speed is heavy tank speeds with heavy tank power to weight ratios. Their health is average for their tiers.

 

The stats shown above are balanced, reasonably so given the game theyre going into. So I dont see how its "insanely hard" to balance them when they already are balanced. It would actually be harder to balance a tank that only fire 2 shells at a time, because it would either have bad DPM (like they currently do when firing both barrels) or their alpha would be half as much as every other heavy tank at tier, at which point theyre basically just single barreled tanks, where their damage is split across two shells. What we are getting is something actually unique, that gives varied options instead of just one.



jinxers65 #20 Posted Oct 12 2019 - 00:53

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quick, somebody scribble down a American tank on a napkin somewhere with a 122mm belt fed gun that can put out around 60 rounds per minute. About as realistic as these fantasy land soviets. Seems like if there is ONE branch that is OP already it is the soviet branch. In reality that branch seemed to litter the whole desert in Iraq with their burning hulks. Whats next, soviet hover tanks??? Lets tune the science fiction back a little please. 




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