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Shall we play a game? What type of blowout was this? (RESULTS!)


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Poll: Shall we play a game? What type of blowout was this? (RESULTS!) (40 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 100 battle in order to participate this poll.

What type of Blowout was this?

  1. Snowball (7 votes [17.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.50%

  2. Steamroll (33 votes [82.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 82.50%

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DeviouslyCursed #21 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 07:05

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Summing up OP's attitude...

 

"WAAAHHHHHHH!!! I want win rate welfare! WAAAHHH!!!!"

 

Implement now, WG! WAH!

 

I won't be happy unless everyone has an equal chance to win, even afk'ers! Wah!!!!"

 



NeatoMan #22 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 13:58

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View PostSimplyPzB2, on Oct 18 2019 - 23:28, said:

And there is a huge difference between Steamroll and Snowball.  Snowball is based on skill, i.e. a skilled team coalescing as a unit to beat a similar opponent.  Steamroll is based on severe lack of skill of one team, where a very good team just pushes the 'w' key and steamrolls over a bunch of low skill players = Team Sealclubbing.  

That would mean a snowball should take longer than a steamroll, because pressing 'w" surely must be quicker than having to fight through an equally skilled opponent.   That doesn't happen to any large extent.   It also means unbalanced teams should have faster games regardless of the margin of victory.  A skilled team should defeat unskilled teams faster than they defeat balanced teams all the time. not just in blowouts.  That also doesn't happen to any large extent. 

 

The largest factor in battle duration is the margin of victory, not the degree of skill imbalance.  It's the way the battles play out that dictates how fast they happen. It's the number of enemies you had to tough it out through, not their skill that largely determines battle duration.   When skilled players roll a weaker enemy they don't do it in a different manner than when a balanced team rolls an enemy.  The opposition melts away at the same rate, whether skilled or unskilled.   Bad players seem to provide just as much resistance as anybody else during a blowout.

 

 

"A steamroll is an unbalanced blowout" is just an arbitrary designation made up by you based on XVM color codes, and nothing else.



LOL_i_CLICKED_u #23 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 14:38

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View PostNeatoMan, on Oct 19 2019 - 12:58, said:

That would mean a snowball should take longer than a steamroll, because pressing 'w" surely must be quicker than having to fight through an equally skilled opponent.   That doesn't happen to any large extent.   It also means unbalanced teams should have faster games a majority of the time regardless of the margin of victory.  A skilled team should defeat unskilled teams faster than they defeat balanced teams all the time. not just in blowouts.  That also doesn't happen to any large extent. 

 

The largest factor in battle duration is the margin of victory, not the degree of skill imbalance.  It's the way the battles play out that dictates how fast they happen. It's the number of enemies you had to tough it out through, not their skill that largely determines battle duration.  When skilled players roll a weaker enemy they don't do it in a different manner than when a balanced team rolls an enemy.  The opposition melts away at the same rate, whether skilled or unskilled.

 

 

"A steamroll is an unbalanced blowout" is just an arbitrary designation made up by you based on XVM color codes, and nothing else.

 

Are you [edited]kidding me?

 

A team of NEWBI's vs a team of actual newbs isn't going to be anywhere even CLOSE to the length of time of 2 equally skilled teams.

 

Do you actually believe this [edited]you are spouting right now?

 

Skill levels have EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

L.M.A.O.



umkhulu #24 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 14:47

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Call it whatever you like. Produce all the stats you like. The teams were stupidly unbalanced and the outcome was totally predictable. Nobody likes to start a battle knowing that are going to suffer yet another humiliating defeat. Who can blame players for opting out and hoping their next game will be more enjoyable.

 

Why do we put up with these lop-sided and predictable games when there is such a simple solution - BALANCE THE FRIGGIN' TEAMS!



NeatoMan #25 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 15:17

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Here is more proof that your whole "steamroll vs snowball" idea is full of crap.

 

Here is a comparison of underdog wins vs favored team wins.  Look at how fast blowouts occurred when the heavily favored team wins or loses by a blowout.  if skill played such a huge roll, and was as easy as pressing 'w', then the underdog teams should all have had an extremely difficult time whenever they forced a "snowball" victory compared to when the favored teams "steamrolled" over them.

 

The results indicate otherwise.  Underdog teams rolled over the favored teams almost as fast as underdog teams folded in a rollover.  A blowout is a blowout is a blowout.

 

 

View PostLOL_i_CLICKED_u, on Oct 19 2019 - 08:38, said:

Are you [edited]kidding me?

A team of NEWBI's vs a team of actual newbs isn't going to be anywhere even CLOSE to the length of time of 2 equally skilled teams.

Do you actually believe this [edited]you are spouting right now?

Skill levels have EVERYTHING to do with it.

L.M.A.O.

Almost ten thousand battles worth of data indicates you are wrong. 



NeatoMan #26 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 15:28

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View Postumkhulu, on Oct 19 2019 - 08:47, said:

Call it whatever you like. Produce all the stats you like. The teams were stupidly unbalanced and the outcome was totally predictable. Nobody likes to start a battle knowing that are going to suffer yet another humiliating defeat. Who can blame players for opting out and hoping their next game will be more enjoyable.

 

Why do we put up with these lop-sided and predictable games when there is such a simple solution - BALANCE THE FRIGGIN' TEAMS!

That's your own damn fault for not being able to handle what XVM is showing you.  You are putting yourself in a crappy frame of mind because you can't let go of your stupid little mod.     You want push through a major change to the MM that only benefits bad players because you are more dependent on XVM to provide you enjoyment than what actually happens when you play the game.

 



ATruk #27 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 16:51

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View Postumkhulu, on Oct 19 2019 - 06:47, said:

<snip> 

Who can blame players for opting out and hoping their next game will be more enjoyable.

 

 

Well, me for one. 



umkhulu #28 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 18:30

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View PostNeatoMan, on Oct 19 2019 - 15:28, said:

That's your own damn fault for not being able to handle what XVM is showing you.  You are putting yourself in a crappy frame of mind because you can't let go of your stupid little mod.     You want push through a major change to the MM that only benefits bad players because you are more dependent XVM to provide you enjoyment than what actually happens when you play the game.

 

 

Maybe if you reworked your stats using WN8 instead of PR, you might get a closer correlation to the XVM prediction vs result. I know that WN8 is not available from WG, but there is enough info at hand to calculate your own WN8.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am a great believer in stats, but in order for them to me meaningful, one need to take into accounts all the variables . As far as I am concerned RNG is a big question mark as well as the fact that WG has a host of hidden data which they could use to influence games to suit their own agenda.

 

No accusations, no conspiracy theory, just a suspicious nature and in the meantime I shall continue to play what I consider a brilliantly conceived game.

 

 

 



NeatoMan #29 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 19:16

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XVM started out using efficiency, then WN(whatever the number was at the time), and then a combination of WN8 and xte to calculate win chance.  They all gave similar results, as does PR.

Second, what rating do you suppose WG will use to balance teams? Their own rating based off all the stats at their disposal, or a 3rd party rating based off incomplete data (e.g. no spotting/assist dmg)?

SimplyPzB2 #30 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:27

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View PostVolcanic_lobster_220, on Oct 18 2019 - 04:24, said:

Steamroll/Blowout, i don't care what you call it, 15-0 is the fault of a team full of super-stupids or "muppets" as Claus would say.

And an Obj 252U Defender with zero damage :D must have gotten disconnected or ammo racked, even a 40%er would've done a few hundred damage.

Wish i could say it's a rare sight to see no one on the team do over a thousand damage, wow.

 

 

View Postgolruul, on Oct 18 2019 - 21:44, said:

Gents, 4 people on the opposing team got 0 xp.  You only get that when you exit the battle before you're destroyed.  Seeing as those people also got 0 damage, they most likely exited shortly after the battle began.

 

The game was effectively 15 vs 11 from the start.

 

Anyone trying to use a game where almost a third of your opponents immediately exit the battle as an example of a blowout is a fool and is obviously trying to push some agenda. 

 

View Postspud_tuber, on Oct 18 2019 - 23:11, said:

You don't get 0XP even for afk play.  0XP only happens if you leave the battle before your tank is destroyed or overturned.  Doesn't mean those 4 deliberately left the battle early. They may have been discoed due to something out of their control.  It is the 0XP that the guy bases his exited before it began claim on as much as the 0 damage.

 

View Postspud_tuber, on Oct 18 2019 - 23:14, said:

Thank you for pointing that out.   I had pretty much missed it because I just didn't look closely at the pics.  And of course, OP didn't provide a replay where this would have been more obvious. 

 

View Postspud_tuber, on Oct 19 2019 - 05:42, said:

Sorry, but there is no other way to get 0 XP than to exit the battle, regardless of intent, before your tank is destroyed or otherwise incapacitated.   How about sharing the replay? We could at least look at other info about the 0 XPers and maybe tell if they exited early or later.


I find it highly amusing when people think they are 'so right', but are really so wrong. 

-

So these guys are 'positive' the no experience players 'left the game'.  Funny thing is, none of them did.  Every single enemy tank rolled out and 'participated' in the battle. 

-

Screenshots...

-

1 minute in: The way less experienced team has sent no one to scout mid. They are camping so hard, only one tank has been spotted.

-

2 minutes in: I've set up in the middle of the map, where I will simply sit and farm damage the whole battle. Oh the excitement. You can see the less experienced team sent only a couple tanks to the 1 line, they get overrun easily.

-

3 minutes in: 1 line has been cleared, my team that went one line now will simply drive up the 1 line, across the top of the map, completely unopposed. Thrilling gameplay indeed. I'm still camping and farming from mid.

-

4 minutes in: You can clearly see none of the enemy 'left the game', as there are no tanks/dead tanks at spawn. Every single enemy participated in this battle - even the one who got Zero experience. I am still sniping from mid... sigh... sooo boring...

-

4.5 minutes in: (because we didn't get to 5 minutes!). I finally move from mid to try and farm some last minute damage. I didn't move fast enough. - This is what happens when you stack most/all of the skilled players on one team. It's boring. It's not fun. It's not challenging. It's not fair to the less skilled team. It's not fair to the more skilled team. These types of battles serve no purpose. - Now if we has sbmm, both teams would have had some skilled players which would have resulted in a much more competitive enjoyable experience.

-

-

So there you have it.  Every enemy tank played, no one 'left the battle'.  The so called "know it all's" apparently don't.  Please keep this in mind when reading their future comments...

 



SimplyPzB2 #31 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:28

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View PostDeviouslyCursed, on Oct 19 2019 - 07:05, said:

Summing up OP's attitude...

 

"WAAAHHHHHHH!!! I want win rate welfare! WAAAHHH!!!!"

 

Implement now, WG! WAH!

 

I won't be happy unless everyone has an equal chance to win, even afk'ers! Wah!!!!"

 


Funny, if I want win rate welfare, why I am complaining about a "win"?  Oh that's right, because I'm not complaining about winning OR losing.  I'm complaining about crappy gameplay...



spud_tuber #32 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:47

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View PostSimplyPzB2, on Oct 19 2019 - 13:27, said:

 

 

 

 


I find it highly amusing when people think they are 'so right', but are really so wrong. 

-

So these guys are 'positive' the no experience players 'left the game'.  Funny thing is, none of them did.  Every single enemy tank rolled out and 'participated' in the battle. 

-

Screenshots...

-

1 minute in: The way less experienced team has sent no one to scout mid. They are camping so hard, only one tank has been spotted.

-

2 minutes in: I've set up in the middle of the map, where I will simply sit and farm damage the whole battle. Oh the excitement. You can see the less experienced team sent only a couple tanks to the 1 line, they get overrun easily.

-

3 minutes in: 1 line has been cleared, my team that went one line now will simply drive up the 1 line, across the top of the map, completely unopposed. Thrilling gameplay indeed. I'm still camping and farming from mid.

-

4 minutes in: You can clearly see none of the enemy 'left the game', as there are no tanks/dead tanks at spawn. Every single enemy participated in this battle - even the one who got Zero experience. I am still sniping from mid... sigh... sooo boring...

-

4.5 minutes in: (because we didn't get to 5 minutes!). I finally move from mid to try and farm some last minute damage. I didn't move fast enough. - This is what happens when you stack most/all of the skilled players on one team. It's boring. It's not fun. It's not challenging. It's not fair to the less skilled team. It's not fair to the more skilled team. These types of battles serve no purpose. - Now if we has sbmm, both teams would have had some skilled players which would have resulted in a much more competitive enjoyable experience.

-

-

So there you have it.  Every enemy tank played, no one 'left the battle'.  The so called "know it all's" apparently don't.  Please keep this in mind when reading their future comments...

 

If you read my comments, you may notice I didn't claim they exited without playing, only that the only way to get 0 XP is to exit the battle before your tank is destroyed or otherwise incapacitated.   As a matter of fact, I asked for a replay so we could get a better idea of when those 0 XP players exited the battle.  So, perhaps you should learn to read instead of attacking strawmen of your own construction.

 

Oh,  and maybe provide the replay as well.  Not like we don't all know that you're SoTrue's forum RO alt.  If you've not been banned as an RO alt yet,  it seems unlikely you will for providing a replay.



SimplyPzB2 #33 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:48

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View PostNeatoMan, on Oct 19 2019 - 13:58, said:

That would mean a snowball should take longer than a steamroll, because pressing 'w" surely must be quicker than having to fight through an equally skilled opponent.   That doesn't happen to any large extent.   It also means unbalanced teams should have faster games regardless of the margin of victory.  A skilled team should defeat unskilled teams faster than they defeat balanced teams all the time. not just in blowouts.  That also doesn't happen to any large extent. 

 

The largest factor in battle duration is the margin of victory, not the degree of skill imbalance.  It's the way the battles play out that dictates how fast they happen. It's the number of enemies you had to tough it out through, not their skill that largely determines battle duration.   When skilled players roll a weaker enemy they don't do it in a different manner than when a balanced team rolls an enemy.  The opposition melts away at the same rate, whether skilled or unskilled.   Bad players seem to provide just as much resistance as anybody else during a blowout.

 

 

"A steamroll is an unbalanced blowout" is just an arbitrary designation made up by you based on XVM color codes, and nothing else.


You know a lot of people really buy into neato and all his data and charts.  But it's posts like this that really show just how unscientific neato really is. 

-

Neato states: "That would mean a snowball should take longer than a steamroll, because pressing 'w" surely must be quicker than having to fight through an equally skilled opponent."  Key word in this sentence is "should".  How scientific of him.  Well you know, I feel that Snowball blowout "should" take longer, so you know, because I feel that's how it "should" be, then that's how it must be.  Just wow.  So scientific.  Worst part is how he throws 'data' on top of his opinion to justify his opinion.  His data shows that battle duration don't really differ between Snowball blowouts and Steamroll blowouts.  But he never bothers to explain how that matters at all.

-

Here's what he's NOT doing.  While he's looking at the time each type of battle takes, he's NOT factoring in:

  • Map size:  Larger maps take longer to driver across thus impacting battle duration.
  • Team composition in terms of tank types.  Are the teams mostly fast mediums and lights, or are the teams mostly tank destroyers and heavy tanks?  That will affect battle duration.
  • Team deployment:  Certain types of deployment can impact battle duration.  Such as camping (common 'tactic' for less skilled team, as they are afraid to get shot).  If a team camps on a large map, it takes the more skilled team just that much more time to drive all the way across the map.  And some maps it can be hard to 'dig out' entrenched enemies, even if they are less skilled.  Think north spawn on Mannerheim line. 
  • Tier:  Higher tiers have more hit points and better armor.  It can take much longer to whittle that down than in low tiers.
  • Etc Etc Etc  so many variable go into battle duration.  Neato accounts for non of them.  But you know, he "feels" like Snobwall blowouts "should" take longer...

 

-

I did a whole topic on the fact that battle duration has no impact on blowouts:

http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

-

In that topic I post pics from a replay where a very unskilled team was just camping and dug in.  And a very experience team new better than to just yolo into them.  The experienced team took their time and did dig them out, and did Steamroll them.  But it clearly shows that battle duration is not a factor in Steamroll blowouts.



SimplyPzB2 #34 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:51

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View Postspud_tuber, on Oct 19 2019 - 20:47, said:

If you read my comments, you may notice I didn't claim they exited without playing, only that the only way to get 0 XP is to exit the battle before your tank is destroyed or otherwise incapacitated.   As a matter of fact, I asked for a replay so we could get a better idea of when those 0 XP players exited the battle.  So, perhaps you should learn to read instead of attacking strawmen of your own construction.

 

Oh,  and maybe provide the replay as well.  Not like we don't all know that you're SoTrue's forum RO alt.  If you've not been banned as an RO alt yet,  it seems unlikely you will for providing a replay.


So you were wrong, got it.

-

Also, you can't provide replays as there is no way to hide players names.  If you can't hide the names, you can get dinged for 'naming and shaming'...   And the screenshots prove you were wrong anyway, no replay needed. 

-

Let me be specific.  Look at the defender.  He did 'not leave the game' at all.  I should know, I killed him.  He yolo'd out into the mid where he got farmed.  He didn't get any spotting, he didn't get any damage, he got no xp - yet he didn't 'leave the game'.  In fact you can see me shooting him as he drives around in the 3-minute screenshot.  So you are just flat out wrong.  And no, it wasn't a yolo suicide, the guy just didn't understand the game mechanics.  It was clear he didn't know how to read the mini-map, he didn't understand who was shooting him, he was 'looking' for enemies but couldn't see us because he was driving around in sniper mode.  He was just very inexperienced.


Edited by SimplyPzB2, Oct 19 2019 - 20:56.


SimplyPzB2 #35 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:58

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View PostLOL_i_CLICKED_u, on Oct 19 2019 - 14:38, said:

 

Are you [edited]kidding me?

 

A team of NEWBI's vs a team of actual newbs isn't going to be anywhere even CLOSE to the length of time of 2 equally skilled teams.

 

Do you actually believe this [edited]you are spouting right now?

 

Skill levels have EVERYTHING to do with it.

 

L.M.A.O.


Actually, huge differences in team skill don't have much of an impact on battle duration.  Read this: http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1

-

But you are right, a team of newbs has no chance against a skilled team.  These battles should not exist.


Edited by SimplyPzB2, Oct 19 2019 - 20:59.


spud_tuber #36 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 20:58

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View PostSimplyPzB2, on Oct 19 2019 - 13:51, said:


So you were wrong, got it.

-

Also, you can't provide replays as there is no way to hide players names.  If you can't hide the names, you can get dinged for 'naming and shaming'...   And the screenshots prove you were wrong anyway, no replay needed. 

The screenshots don't prove that they didn't exit before their tank was destroyed or otherwise incapacitated.   Even a replay might not prove that. 

 

However, you're still fighting a strawman, as again, if you actually read what I said, I did not claim that they exited early, and indeed asked for a replay to get a better idea when they might have exited.  I'll admit the screenshot helps give some idea when the 252 might have.

 

Also, I've posted replays before with no ding for name and shame, and I've never had anyone trustworthy claim that they've been dinged for it.  People have linked to claus videos that certainly contained name and shame without getting dinged for it.  However, if you're that scared of getting hit with name and shame, you can private convo a link to me, in game if you're afraid to do it on the forums, and I'll post the link publicly. Thay way, I  take all the risk.



SimplyPzB2 #37 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 21:00

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View PostNeatoMan, on Oct 19 2019 - 15:17, said:

Here is more proof that your whole "steamroll vs snowball" idea is full of crap.

 

Here is a comparison of underdog wins vs favored team wins.  Look at how fast blowouts occurred when the heavily favored team wins or loses by a blowout.  if skill played such a huge roll, and was as easy as pressing 'w', then the underdog teams should all have had an extremely difficult time whenever they forced a "snowball" victory compared to when the favored teams "steamrolled" over them.

 

The results indicate otherwise.  Underdog teams rolled over the favored teams almost as fast as underdog teams folded in a rollover.  A blowout is a blowout is a blowout.

 

 

Almost ten thousand battles worth of data indicates you are wrong. 


See my response to this crud above.  Battle duration is not tied to team skill disparity.  http://forum.worldof...__fromsearch__1



Copacetic #38 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 21:01

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damn the sbmm morons escaped from the big thread

SimplyPzB2 #39 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 21:06

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View PostNeatoMan, on Oct 19 2019 - 15:28, said:

That's your own damn fault for not being able to handle what XVM is showing you.  You are putting yourself in a crappy frame of mind because you can't let go of your stupid little mod.     You want push through a major change to the MM that only benefits bad players because you are more dependent on XVM to provide you enjoyment than what actually happens when you play the game.

 


His frame of mind is irrelevant.  When the MM stacks all/most of the skilled players on one team, there is nothing you can do about it.  The battle has been decided by the MM. 

-

Also, sbmm is a very minor change.  A little code to swap a few players between teams so that both teams have 'about' the same number of skilled players.  Minor change.  The fact that 60% of all battles are ALREADY balanced means sbmm will just be providing more of what's good about this game - more fair and competitive gameplay.

-

The only thing sbmm would remove are the 'waste of time' battles like the one shown in this topic.  When a toon of purple unicums drops down to tier 4 to smash noobs it's called "sealclubbing" it's generally frowned upon.  So much so that WG COMPLETELY REWORKED LOW TIERS to prevent it a few years back.  Massive programming exercise.

-

So when 'random mm' stacks all/most of the skill on one team, well that's "Team Sealclubbing", and it should be frowned on just as much as regular sealclubbing if not more so....

 



SimplyPzB2 #40 Posted Oct 19 2019 - 21:07

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View PostCopacetic, on Oct 19 2019 - 21:01, said:

damn the sbmm morons escaped from the big thread


This comment is 100% off topic.  It's 100% an insult to other players.  How is this type of comment allowed???






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