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[Sandbox] HE Shells test


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Mikosah #361 Posted Oct 29 2019 - 22:36

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View PostDomoSapien, on Oct 29 2019 - 14:11, said:

Well the devs stated that vehicles that primarily rely on HE such as the KV-2, Japanese heavies, and that one low-tier italian medium will be looked at separately as part of the shell rebalance.

Whether or not this means it will ultimately end up getting hit with what folks may consider a nerf, I'm not sure. Personally I'd say that 'better safe than sorry' is a better policy than 'buy it and hope it gets refunded if you don't end up liking the changes'.

Maybe hold off until you've got more information? I'm sure the KV-2® will hit the premium shop again at some point in the future. 

 

EDIT: lol apparently putting an R in parentheses turns it into the symbol for registered trademarks - to be clear we don't claim the KV-2 as a registered trademark of Wargaming

 

Interesting piece of information from another thread. I agree that dedicated HE platforms should be treated differently than the typical tank for whom HE is at best an accessory. But I have a ton of questions on how they're trying to handle this.

 

For one, does the former category include tanks like the M4 Sherman and Hetzer, which have a valid choice between a howitzer and a conventional high-velocity gun? Shouldn't all howitzers be considered as dedicated HE platforms? 

 

Secondly, how exactly are these particular guns going to be made viable when the new mechanics are in play? More damage? Higher spall factor? Buffs to other characteristics like fire rate, aim time, et cetera?

 

And third, what about on-the-fence cases, like tanks that use HESH? Will these shells be treated as normal HE, howitzer HE, or something else entirely?

 

 

 

*****EDIT: Incidentally, I'll also mention another comment about the current iteration of the sandbox- that the low tiers gained disproportionately more hit points than they did standard shell alpha, so combat generally takes longer. Perhaps to a degree this was necessary but I'm now starting to think that there is such a thing as too slow. Part of the appeal of the low and middle tiers is the faster pace, which I now see as a benefit. Not only this, but the difference in alpha between the standard and premium shells doesn't seem as significant as it ought to be. There's a golden opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by letting standard shells have a larger alpha increase to proportionally match the larger hit point pools. The pace isn't slowed to a crawl, and use of standard shells is justly rewarded, a win-win.


Edited by Mikosah, Oct 31 2019 - 05:11.


Omega_Weapon #362 Posted Oct 30 2019 - 00:48

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View PostMikosah, on Oct 29 2019 - 16:36, said:

And third, what about on-the-fence cases, like tanks that use HESH? Will these shells be treated as normal HE, howitzer HE, or something else entirely?


Well HESH is an improved type of HE with better anti-armour capability, so Whatever the new HE shells end up as, HESH should be better than that. That's if logic is applied to the situation, which certainly isn't guaranteed. 



mauri_fighter #363 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 10:55

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Please do not make changes to the amunition HE
1. High-Explosive Shells Armor Penetration Removal
2. Changing the Mechanics of Damage Distribution Oover the Splash Radius
3. Nominal Damage Reduction
4. Damage Decrease From the Center of the Splash
5. Changing the Tracing Algorithm and the Minimal Damage
Strongly disagree so the WOT would be much more boring to play

mauri_fighter #364 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 10:57

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Please do not make changes to the amunition HE
1. High-Explosive Shells Armor Penetration Removal
2. Changing the Mechanics of Damage Distribution Oover the Splash Radius
3. Nominal Damage Reduction
4. Damage Decrease From the Center of the Splash
5. Changing the Tracing Algorithm and the Minimal Damage
Strongly disagree so the WOT would be much more boring to play

Croveski #365 Posted Nov 02 2019 - 19:09

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View PostCabbageMechanic, on Oct 25 2019 - 09:28, said:

Hey Tankers, here's an update on today's changes.  Check them out and let us know what you think.

If HE shells can't be used to do massive damage to weak armor like the Skorpion G turret or the back hull of a US heavy tank, I'm not playing the game anymore. Simple as that. HE shells did not need to be changed, nobody wanted them to be changed, and you've now stated that your goal is a complete rework of HE shells. They were an interesting and rewarding mechanic as is, rewarding players who use their brains and position themselves to deal as much damage as they can. Tanks especially like the Skorpion G are entirely balanced around the fact that, when spotted, HE can be used to heavily punish them. Now it seems we'll be doing roughly half the damage we were before using HE with what *used* to be penetrations.

So I guess soon I'll be uninstalling.


Edited by Croveski, Nov 02 2019 - 19:19.


SquishySupreme #366 Posted Nov 03 2019 - 06:02

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Another interesting thing is that all HE hits on the Sandbox server vs wheeled vehicles are 0 barring hitting the turret via manual aiming or hitting them square in the front or rear.

Lower damage, no pen.  It does flat damage, which spreads out, finds a wheel, and then dumps it into the weakest place - the wheel.  Then stops looking/calculating since it found the "weak spot".  Which is effectively infinite armor on a hit.  Tanks also do this as well - their HE shot hits, propagates outwards, finds a nearby track, and it all gets dumped there since a "critical hit" effectively stops the calculation entirely.

This actually makes wheeled vehicles stronger as HE is almost entirely able to be ignored.  It used to be a way to at least reliably damage them.

Das_Flamingo #367 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 03:10

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I've avoided weighing in on this thread until I had a chance to read and consider all of the posts. That being said... This is a poor idea. If they wanted to normalize the damage, the could have done a 3 tier system, where
1."speshul" rounds have say, 25% higher pen but 25% less damage,
2. Normal rounds stay unchanged for consistent damage and,
3.HE does 25% more damage but with 25% less pen. Non penetration would yield no damage.

Aside from this, I have some honest Tomato questions for the fellows who have posted along with a comment or two:
1. In what way are derp guns only for people who can't aim? (Speaking anecdotally, I have to aim MORE to do well in my Jumbo. I don't want center mass, I want to park one on the engine deck, the drive wheel or the turret ring. Most right click /left click gameplay seems to involve very fast vehicles or speshul ammo.)
2. How are the 76mm options on the Shermans adequate in current power creep meta? (There are tanks in game that I can't reliably pen even from behind without gold, like the VK100...so much for flanking)
3. How is penetration by HE unrealistic? (standard HE shells were mostly cast iron with explosive filler,with a delay fuze.)
4. Why is this such a "needed" change all of a sudden? (Wheelies, Speshul spam, tech tree rebalance, new maps, +1/-1 MM all need a look, so why this?)
Finally, I don't want to unduly criticize, but it is odd that a player like a certain Dutch streamer, who built his channel on things like golfing with derp guns, and the WT Auf. E100 all HE loadout, to say that he has always thought derps are bad for the game.

MA2_Mako #368 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 23:02

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View PostDemitriVritra_US, on Oct 17 2019 - 18:30, said:

183 rounds are hesh or AP there is no straight HE. so yes it'd effect Hesh.


obviously your ability to read is low 

 

NOTE: We're currently testing the mechanics for dealing damage with HE shells only for regular tanks. This does not apply to SPG rounds or HESH. We will test them in a separate iteration, but only if we receive positive results from the current Sandbox tests.



MA2_Mako #369 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 23:03

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View PostCroveski, on Nov 02 2019 - 10:09, said:

If HE shells can't be used to do massive damage to weak armor like the Skorpion G turret or the back hull of a US heavy tank, I'm not playing the game anymore. Simple as that. HE shells did not need to be changed, nobody wanted them to be changed, and you've now stated that your goal is a complete rework of HE shells. They were an interesting and rewarding mechanic as is, rewarding players who use their brains and position themselves to deal as much damage as they can. Tanks especially like the Skorpion G are entirely balanced around the fact that, when spotted, HE can be used to heavily punish them. Now it seems we'll be doing roughly half the damage we were before using HE with what *used* to be penetrations.

So I guess soon I'll be uninstalling.


bye



stalkervision #370 Posted Nov 16 2019 - 10:24

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View PostSquishySupreme, on Nov 03 2019 - 00:02, said:

Another interesting thing is that all HE hits on the Sandbox server vs wheeled vehicles are 0 barring hitting the turret via manual aiming or hitting them square in the front or rear.

Lower damage, no pen.  It does flat damage, which spreads out, finds a wheel, and then dumps it into the weakest place - the wheel.  Then stops looking/calculating since it found the "weak spot".  Which is effectively infinite armor on a hit.  Tanks also do this as well - their HE shot hits, propagates outwards, finds a nearby track, and it all gets dumped there since a "critical hit" effectively stops the calculation entirely.

This actually makes wheeled vehicles stronger as HE is almost entirely able to be ignored.  It used to be a way to at least reliably damage them.

Actually a h/e hit often cripples a wheeled vehicle just enough to make it very vulnerable.



cloudwalkr #371 Posted Nov 17 2019 - 23:12

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View Post__WarChild__, on Oct 18 2019 - 02:28, said:

My advice is for Wargaming to step away from the HE and stop with the changes.  Want to fix something? Remove wheeled vehicles and limit arty to 1 per team.  That's about all you need to do.


therefore let us implement 50 new things nobody asked for or wants and pull off our best EA voice: we listened to you, our players.



SquishySupreme #372 Posted Yesterday, 11:07 AM

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View Poststalkervision, on Nov 16 2019 - 10:24, said:

Actually a h/e hit often cripples a wheeled vehicle just enough to make it very vulnerable.

Wrong.  A hit with HE on a wheel acts like the shot never existed - those rubber tires are infinite armor value versus HE since the May changes.
I've posted links to videos before showing  how this works and is currently broken.  But at least with HE, IF you hit someplace other than the wheels you would do big damage.  It was an option to shut them down with some skill and planning.

These new changes will de-power HE even more, making it a useless option to use against them.  That leaves basically gold ammo and praying to hit a weak spot.






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