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HE Round Sand Box

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Poll: Do you like the HE Round re-work? (306 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 100 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you think the new mechanics for HE rounds are good?

  1. ( 100%) Yes, I think the new HE rounds are perfect (36 votes [11.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  2. (50%) No, Its the right direction but not where it should be (36 votes [11.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  3. (0%) No, These changes are awful and the idea needs to be shelved (234 votes [76.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.47%

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comradekillshot #1 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 13:58

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Personally I think this is a solution to a problem that didn't even exist. As far as what it looks like from the test server and online research, all derp tanks just got nerfed out of the game. Even tanks like the KV-2 which does have an AP round on its large caliber gun is about to be a relic that sits in the garage. This update needs to either be shelved or just thrown out completely. Considering most complaints I hear about the game HE rounds isn't even what people talk about unless its a very specific vehicle that has an issue. Taking down hull down heavy armor tanks is about to become border line impossible. Honestly, reading the update on wargaming's website, I didn't see a 4th and very reasonable use of HE rounds, and that is when your face to face with a tank that either you cant pen or is going to be very hard to pen and using HE rounds to slowly chip away at their health. 

 

Something that also looks very ugly to me is the fact you can still dab that 2 key to get the damage you need. It looks like a cheap attempt to get people to spend credits on premium rounds. Obviously I am very unsatisfied from what I have seen so far. I would much rather Wargaming leave HE rounds alone and hurry up with the double barrel tanks because that's what I'm looking forward too. But its a poll so vote as you feel fit.

 

EDIT:

If Wargaming wants to explain what they are going to do about the HE guns in the game I am more than happy to listen, but as of now this seems unacceptable. 


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 18 2019 - 14:05.


Rena_Dyne #2 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:07

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I already used the AP round for the KV2 {Which as I understand it, is getting buffed to do a fair bit more damage, and if they buff its ap pen, well, no big deal either way}, I used the 76's on all the sherman variants, {and have at least one MOE in the 76MM M4A1 sherman}, the PZ-IV-H and the french variant that almost no one uses for the tier 5 mediumsm and have had very little trouble digging out hulls down tanks since most of them have penetrable cupola's. The only thing i Really see an issue with dealing with are the Russian heavies being hulls down with their teeny tiny cupola's. While I don't think the changes to HE Were the right direction, they're not really changes that bother me all that much, and it'll definitely make the Japanese super heavies require a re-think in how they work rather than "Peek, burp, retreat" like they play now {As well as stripping the goofy HE rounds off of the Wheelies.}

 

As it stood, I barely used HE as is, to the point I maybe carry 5 rounds in any given tank, 10 if I have a stupid huge ammo capacity ala something like the M4a1 which can carry just shy of 100 rounds, and there my loadout is 60/20/10 {AP/APCR/HE} , the only time I really used it was when I needed a snap-shot to reset the cap, or if I absolutely needed to track something.



comradekillshot #3 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:12

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View PostRena_Dyne, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:07, said:

I already used the AP round for the KV2 {Which as I understand it, is getting buffed to do a fair bit more damage, and if they buff its ap pen, well, no big deal either way}, I used the 76's on all the sherman variants, {and have at least one MOE in the 76MM M4A1 sherman}, the PZ-IV-H and the french variant that almost no one uses for the tier 5 mediumsm and have had very little trouble digging out hulls down tanks since most of them have penetrable cupola's. The only thing i Really see an issue with dealing with are the Russian heavies being hulls down with their teeny tiny cupola's. While I don't think the changes to HE Were the right direction, they're not really changes that bother me all that much, and it'll definitely make the Japanese super heavies require a re-think in how they work rather than "Peek, burp, retreat" like they play now {As well as stripping the goofy HE rounds off of the Wheelies.}

 

Yeah, I feel like typically most tanks have an AP variation or different gun that can put out similar DPS to the derp counter part, but the derps are fun. It's just a different play style that is not OP in my opinion. Looking at tanks like the KV-2 specifically though, why even run a KV-2, unless its just to move down the tech tree. Why would you run a KV-2 with its high caliber gun and shoot AP when your going to have that huge reload time. Why not run a T-150 and have better armor, a more sleek profile, and a better DPS gun? I don't like where this is going in the least bit.

 

But also on the idea of weak spots on a tank like the hatch, sometimes its just not a possible shot or you don't have the aim time. HE Rounds really help tanks that are 2 tiers down to fight up against top tier tanks and put out some damage without getting blasted because they have to take 4 seconds to aim.


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 18 2019 - 14:13.


Rena_Dyne #4 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:14

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 18 2019 - 05:12, said:

 

Yeah, I feel like typically most tanks have an AP variation or different gun that can put out similar DPS to the derp counter part, but the derps are fun. It's just a different play style that is not OP in my opinion. Looking at tanks like the KV-2 specifically though, why even run a KV-2, unless its just to move down the tech tree. Why would you run a KV-2 with its high caliber gun and shoot AP when your going to have that huge reload time. Why not run a T-150 and have better armor, a more sleek profile, and a better DPS gun? I don't like where this is going in the least bit.

 

Honestly, I run the KV-2, use the Premium AP Round, and it still deals hilariously huge damage and usually a bit more reliably then the HE does. So as long as they buff the AP Rounds to compensate for the loss of HE viability, I don't think it'll honestly change too much for them besides the fact you have to aim a bit more than you do with the "Peek-a-boom" style played with HE, or just increase their aim-speed or reduce their RNG to compensate for it.



comradekillshot #5 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:20

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View PostRena_Dyne, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:14, said:

 

Honestly, I run the KV-2, use the Premium AP Round, and it still deals hilariously huge damage and usually a bit more reliably then the HE does. So as long as they buff the AP Rounds to compensate for the loss of HE viability, I don't think it'll honestly change too much for them besides the fact you have to aim a bit more than you do with the "Peek-a-boom" style played with HE, or just increase their aim-speed or reduce their RNG to compensate for it.

I agree with you on the reliability of the premium rounds. The funny thing is when you say KV-2 derp alpha is something like 900 damage people kind of squirm. But as someone who has driven the KV-2 and many other derp tanks, its not that op. When I run into another heavy tank in my kv-2 and shoot them square in the mantle I do like 350-450 damage. Its about the same as a 122 AP round that penetrates. The only time its crazy high damage is when you pen and considering that a LOT of the derp tanks are very slow with very slow turret rotation speed they aren't that hard to avoid. Now of course sometime you get derped hard, which has happened to me plenty of times, but its not like its OP. Plus a lot of people don't want to blow credits on premium rounds. I dunno, this is a bit much in my opinion, and by a bit I mean over the top.


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 18 2019 - 14:21.


Rena_Dyne #6 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:27

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 18 2019 - 05:20, said:

I agree with you on the reliability of the premium rounds. The funny thing is when you say KV-2 derp alpha is something like 900 damage people kind of squirm. But as someone who has driven the KV-2 and many other derp tanks, its not that op. When I run into another heavy tank in my kv-2 and shoot them square in the mantle I do like 350-450 damage. Its about the same as a 122 AP round that penetrates. The only time its crazy high damage is when you pen and considering that a LOT of the derp tanks are very slow with very slow turret rotation speed they aren't that hard to avoid. Now of course sometime you get derped hard, which has happened to me plenty of times, but its not like its OP. Plus a lot of people don't want to blow credits on premium rounds. I dunno, this is a bit much in my opinion, and by a bit I mean over the top.

 

Lowest roll you can get on the derp is just over 500Hp, highest you can get is just shy of 900, so its not quite the same as the AP Round as a penetrating AP round will almost always do more damage then a "low" damage hit with HE but not as much as a full damage hit from HE {Which can do upwards of 1,100 damage}. So you can do, in general with AP, more consecutively reliable damage {Though HE Is hilarious on thin armored tanks that will just be deleted since you just have to sneeze at them in general}. The problem with the AP on the KV-2 specifically {I don't have the jap heavies to know if its the same} is that the AP Rounds, damage wise, are fine, but are anemic in accuracy and pen.  The only "Super slow one" i've noticed is really the KV2 and the SU152 (And you should be using the hilariously high pen HEAT round most of the time on that, anyways), the M4 shermans, the PZIVH, and the Renault G1 are all fairly nimble tanks, the T49 is definitely a nimble tank, and the Hetzer is also fairly nimble {Despite being casemate}

 

Perhaps they may have to compensate "Some" of the derp tanks, but very few of them would need a direct buff to compensate for it, since all the mediums have viable AT gun alternatives that play just fine, the SU-152, KV-2, and Jap heavies will probably need further reworks and rebalancing. Though as I recall the super slow turret rotation on the KV-2 and its low armor is specifically to off-set the fact it gets a 1,100 damage potential gun at tier 6 which, I'm fairly sure, can delete every tier 6 tank in game, and several tier 7', and even a couple of tier *8s* like the Kanonen 105.



HeraldricKnight #7 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:30

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Oh no, you need to actually aim... The horror... Stop, no... You won't be able to derp HE rounds into tracks and do full damage... Monsters... 

Siergen #8 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:34

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Pool should have an option that says "Haven't tested it on Sandbox server yet".



comradekillshot #9 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:39

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View PostRena_Dyne, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:27, said:

 

Lowest roll you can get on the derp is just over 500Hp, highest you can get is just shy of 900, so its not quite the same as the AP Round as a penetrating AP round will almost always do more damage then a "low" damage hit with HE but not as much as a full damage hit from HE {Which can do upwards of 1,100 damage}. So you can do, in general with AP, more consecutively reliable damage {Though HE Is hilarious on thin armored tanks that will just be deleted since you just have to sneeze at them in general}. The problem with the AP on the KV-2 specifically {I don't have the jap heavies to know if its the same} is that the AP Rounds, damage wise, are fine, but are anemic in accuracy and pen.  The only "Super slow one" i've noticed is really the KV2 and the SU152 (And you should be using the hilariously high pen HEAT round most of the time on that, anyways), the M4 shermans, the PZIVH, and the Renault G1 are all fairly nimble tanks, the T49 is definitely a nimble tank, and the Hetzer is also fairly nimble {Despite being casemate}

 

Perhaps they may have to compensate "Some" of the derp tanks, but very few of them would need a direct buff to compensate for it, since all the mediums have viable AT gun alternatives that play just fine, the SU-152, KV-2, and Jap heavies will probably need further reworks and rebalancing. Though as I recall the super slow turret rotation on the KV-2 and its low armor is specifically to off-set the fact it gets a 1,100 damage potential gun at tier 6 which, I'm fairly sure, can delete every tier 6 tank in game, and several tier 7', and even a couple of tier *8s* like the Kanonen 105.

 

On the T49 and other tanks I agree, they are very nimble, but they also are not heavy tanks. So you can blast them and don't need to take all the time in the world to aim at a lower hull or something to that regard. And yea the KV-2 can eliminate a tank but then its got the reload time of a tortoise (not the tank but the animal). I think the KV-2 win rate globally is only like 51%, not anything to cause a nerf like this. There have been plenty of times I rolled a corner, blasted some poor guys into next year, then had 4 tanks just shoot me into the dirt while I reloaded. It's not OP and neither are any of the tanks you listed. They don't deserve this kind of treatment and neither do the players that love them.

 

View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:30, said:

Oh no, you need to actually aim... The horror... Stop, no... You won't be able to derp HE rounds into tracks and do full damage... Monsters... 

 

This comment is not conducive to a conversation. 



Reichmonk #10 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:40

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Did we not read the same article? New HE round wil be better for dealing with hull down russian heavies, because even low caliber guns will be able to do low but consistent damage. Which in my book is step in the right direction. 

 

So what if mid tier OP HE rounds are tonned down, they were OP for way too long.

 

This is the best balancing "nerf" maybe ever and was long overdue.



comradekillshot #11 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:40

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View PostSiergen, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:34, said:

Pool should have an option that says "Haven't tested it on Sandbox server yet".

 

I could add that, but I'm not really looking for an I don't know sort of answer. I would much rather people see this and then go look at it for themselves and come back to give an opinion I guess?



comradekillshot #12 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:43

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View PostReichmonk, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:40, said:

Did we not read the same article? New HE round wil be better for dealing with hull down russian heavies, because even low caliber guns will be able to do low but consistent damage. Which in my book is step in the right direction. 

 

So what if mid tier OP HE rounds are tonned down, they were OP for way too long.

 

This is the best balancing "nerf" maybe ever and was long overdue.

 

 

I strongly disagree with this assessment. I run a lot of russian tanks so therefore I am fairly familiar with the 122 mm guns that come with them. Typically if I am up against an enemy heavy tank and start spamming HE, which I don't usually do if I can hit weak spots, the damage is only like 100-200 damage. A far cry from the typical 400-500 damage the AP rounds that land do. And if you have a very small gun this is typically on a more maneuverable tank. Why not flank at this point? 

 

And sometimes against VERY heavy armor my 122 will do no damage or very low damage, which I am completely cool with because that tank has the armor and should be able to stop the majority of HE damage.


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 18 2019 - 14:44.


Rena_Dyne #13 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:44

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 18 2019 - 05:39, said:

 

On the T49 and other tanks I agree, they are very nimble, but they also are not heavy tanks. So you can blast them and don't need to take all the time in the world to aim at a lower hull or something to that regard. And yea the KV-2 can eliminate a tank but then its got the reload time of a tortoise (not the tank but the animal). I think the KV-2 win rate globally is only like 51%, not anything to cause a nerf like this. There have been plenty of times I rolled a corner, blasted some poor guys into next year, then had 4 tanks just shoot me into the dirt while I reloaded. It's not OP and neither are any of the tanks you listed. They don't deserve this kind of treatment and neither do the players that love them.

 

 

This comment is not conducive to a conversation. 

 

I also said that the KV-2 will likely need some kind of compensating buffs to make it viable again with the HE nerf, however, I really doubt this is a *direct* attack against the KV2, the KV2 is just an unintended casualty of the overall rework; which does happen sometimes. Its not like they did something like, the VK 36.01 (H) or the M7 (Light) reworks that completely, and directly destroyed those tanks. So we'll just have to wait and see if they give any buffs, and if so, what buffs to the KV2 to compensate, since this sandbox test is not for a "Rebalance" of the KV2 or jap heavies, but exclusively a rebalance of HE.

 

I never said any of the tanks I listed were OP? I've also one-marked and nearly two-marked both the SU-152 and KV2, so its not like I hate the tanks.  You're putting your own thoughts into my mouth, stop that.



Kliphie #14 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:46

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 18 2019 - 08:40, said:

 

I could add that, but I'm not really looking for an I don't know sort of answer. I would much rather people see this and then go look at it for themselves and come back to give an opinion I guess?

 

Wouldn't it be better if it was an informed opinion?



comradekillshot #15 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:47

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View PostRena_Dyne, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:44, said:

 

I never said any of the tanks I listed were OP? I've also one-marked and nearly two-marked both the SU-152 and KV2, so its not like I hate the tanks.  You're putting your own thoughts into my mouth, stop that.

 

I meant "you" in more of a "anyone" sense. Like, When "you" say 2+2 = 4 and not 22, I am not referencing "you" in the personal sense but more people in general. Sorry if that was misrepresented. That example didn't help at all. I am no English major and can't think of the vocabulary on how I am using "you" in this regard. How about this?

 

When someone says that HE rounds from tanks like the KV-2 are OP you have to consider other aspects of the tank.

 

Also, the kv-2 and su are both great examples of tanks that are going to get destroyed by this update but I do think its reaches a lot further than those. I think it really hurts total game play in all tanks.


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 18 2019 - 14:53.


comradekillshot #16 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:48

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View PostKliphie, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:46, said:

 

Wouldn't it be better if it was an informed opinion?

Yeah, thats what I mean. I would rather people go and look at what it is. This is a huge update that we should try and give feedback to wargaming on. I don't want someone to just say "meh" and then go about their day.



Trauglodyte #17 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:51

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Looks like a lot of HE derping whiners voted "no".  How shocking this shocking revelation reeks of shockingness!!!  Seriously, you easymoders need to play the same game as the rest of us.

Rena_Dyne #18 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:52

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 18 2019 - 05:48, said:

Yeah, thats what I mean. I would rather people go and look at what it is. This is a huge update that we should try and give feedback to wargaming on. I don't want someone to just say "meh" and then go about their day.

 

But the general complaint seems to rely entirely on that this will hurt the KV-2, Jap heavies, SU-152, and the Derp armed tier 5 mediums {And hetzer}, which is a fairly small list out of quite a lot of tanks that are getting their HE changed. And since we're not gonna see any reworks to the tanks while they're just doing an "over all" he rework, we have no idea how they'll change these tanks if the HE changes go live.



GenPanzer #19 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:57

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I voted yes because I remember the days when HE always did damage and I want that back. Too many times now, I'll shoot HE only to have it bounce and that is super annoying. HE is supposed to explode on contact and therefore should always do some damage.

comradekillshot #20 Posted Oct 18 2019 - 14:57

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View PostRena_Dyne, on Oct 18 2019 - 14:52, said:

 

But the general complaint seems to rely entirely on that this will hurt the KV-2, Jap heavies, SU-152, and the Derp armed tier 5 mediums {And hetzer}, which is a fairly small list out of quite a lot of tanks that are getting their HE changed. And since we're not gonna see any reworks to the tanks while they're just doing an "over all" he rework, we have no idea how they'll change these tanks if the HE changes go live.

 

I agree that we are too focused on that list of tanks right now so lets take a step back. Even in my tanks that I shoot AP rounds out of 90% of the time this update is still bad in those scenarios. Lets take my T-10 for example. When I run into something like a Maus or E-100 or some other super heavy tank I typically start using HE to try and make up for not being able to pen the front of the tank, especially if its hull down. In this case I can shoot HE rounds and do like 100 damage per shot. Removing this ability to me is unfair.

 

Another example, if I am running my light tanks and run into arty. I should be able to load HE with low pen and blast those guys into the dirt. Its not fair that my HE round is going to do nearly the same amount of damage to an enemy heavy tank as an SPG. My HE rounds shouldn't even hurt some of the thickest armor in the game. Track em, sure, but not damage. I should also have the option to get a damage boost while sacrificing some penetration. 

 

This update appears to take away a very significant dynamic in this game and if anything this game needs more dynamics, not less/







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