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New HE Round survery

HE Round Sand Box

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Poll: Do you like the HE Round re-work? (306 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 100 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you think the new mechanics for HE rounds are good?

  1. ( 100%) Yes, I think the new HE rounds are perfect (36 votes [11.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  2. (50%) No, Its the right direction but not where it should be (36 votes [11.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.76%

  3. (0%) No, These changes are awful and the idea needs to be shelved (234 votes [76.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.47%

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HeraldricKnight #101 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 16:55

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 21 2019 - 15:27, said:

And I am currently fully opposed to the current way WG is "addressing" premium ammo. I want a downright nerf which would lead to a nerf of overarmoured tanks. I don't see why WG would go through this complicated step to do something directly about HE ammo but then test a roundabout convoluted way of looking at premium ammo.

 

I guess they're trying to make all the round types functional for all the tank classes. Wargaming is 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' mode; trying to make heavy tanks strong without giving them obvious weakspots (range finders on the t29, for example) and are opting for making certain armor plates weaker at certain angles.

 

IS-3 is a great example of a good, balanced Heavy. Pike nose with a weak forehead right above the gun. The Defender is a great example of the old way of balancing. Strong pike nose with strong turret, but with terribly armored cupolas on top. 

 

It seems to me that Wargaming is swinging on the pendulum of balance again after disastrously putting premium ammo for silver. Premium becomes cheap, nerfs armor. WG buffs armor, nerfs standard rounds. WG buffs standard rounds, and then buffs tank health, nerfs premium. HE is just there. WG is trying to figure out how to make HE more appealing to use. 

 

And that's where we are right now. 



comradekillshot #102 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 10:11

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 21 2019 - 16:55, said:

 WG is trying to figure out how to make HE more appealing to use. 

 

 

Well this way its going to be an absolute night mare and there is no reason to use it. Since armor still drops the damage of HE rounds in the sand box I see tons of small caliber guns hitting no damage or literally doing exactly what they are doing now on the live server. The only argument I hear to why this is a good move to nerf HE into non existence is because of derp guns, which to be honest, I don't know any tank with just an obviously high global win rate. Or any statistic that is super high that warrants such a heavy handed nerfing of an entire ammo class.

 

And like I have been saying, if a specific tank is a problem lets address that tank, not the ammo class. The only way I will want to give up my HE rounds is if the damage roll back impacts arty as well, which I don't think it does. And even if it does there were 100 ways to go about doing this better.


Edited by comradekillshot, Oct 22 2019 - 10:13.


HeraldricKnight #103 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 12:51

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 22 2019 - 09:11, said:

 

Well this way its going to be an absolute night mare and there is no reason to use it. Since armor still drops the damage of HE rounds in the sand box I see tons of small caliber guns hitting no damage or literally doing exactly what they are doing now on the live server. The only argument I hear to why this is a good move to nerf HE into non existence is because of derp guns, which to be honest, I don't know any tank with just an obviously high global win rate. Or any statistic that is super high that warrants such a heavy handed nerfing of an entire ammo class.

 

And like I have been saying, if a specific tank is a problem lets address that tank, not the ammo class. The only way I will want to give up my HE rounds is if the damage roll back impacts arty as well, which I don't think it does. And even if it does there were 100 ways to go about doing this better.

 

Stop thinking that the new HE rounds are meant to do damage. That's your first problem. The new HE rounds are meant to consistently damage and destroy modules/crew, which it does a lot better on the sandbox than on live servers. 

 

HE tests first, individual tanks second. All the low-skill howitzer's will probably getting AP shells with mediocre penetration to off set the loss of fire-and-forget HE derps. 



SpectreHD #104 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 13:04

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 21 2019 - 23:55, said:

 

I guess they're trying to make all the round types functional for all the tank classes. Wargaming is 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' mode; trying to make heavy tanks strong without giving them obvious weakspots (range finders on the t29, for example) and are opting for making certain armor plates weaker at certain angles.

 

IS-3 is a great example of a good, balanced Heavy. Pike nose with a weak forehead right above the gun. The Defender is a great example of the old way of balancing. Strong pike nose with strong turret, but with terribly armored cupolas on top. 

 

It seems to me that Wargaming is swinging on the pendulum of balance again after disastrously putting premium ammo for silver. Premium becomes cheap, nerfs armor. WG buffs armor, nerfs standard rounds. WG buffs standard rounds, and then buffs tank health, nerfs premium. HE is just there. WG is trying to figure out how to make HE more appealing to use. 

 

And that's where we are right now. 

 

It's not really a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation with WG. It is good that WG is doing something with premium ammo. The issue is they are changing everything else so that they don't have to "nerf" premium ammo. That is not what needs to happen because if premium ammo maintain their high penetration, it gives them the excuse to give armour any value they want.

 

I want premium ammo nerfed so that armour, as a stat, be returned to how it was balanced for the first 5 years of this game. Armour, and to a slightly lesser extent, gun depression were given historical as reasonably possible values. This gave all vehicles a fixed based stat to balance up from. Most of the vehicles currently ingame are balanced around this philosophy and it works because back then premium ammo was far less prevalent. Only in CWs were they used extensively and CW players would switch back to standard ammo loadouts in Randoms.

 

I do not understand why WG is doing such a roundabout way to "nerf" premium ammo when they have nerfed them at least 3 times in the past. And in those scenarios, no one tried to sue them. But now WG is supposedly tip toeing around premium ammo due to fear of legal consequences. I say that fear is unfounded. Especially when we went over a year before anything was done when they made premium ammo cost credits only.

 

I mentioned gun depression being as historical as possible. Imagine how less of an issue Conquerors and Super Conquerors would be if they had their historical 7 degrees of gun depression. It was a reason why they had better gun handling than the M103 and T110E5. With them having -10 gun depression while having superiour gun handling pretty much killed of the M103 and T110E5.

 

View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 22 2019 - 19:51, said:

 

Stop thinking that the new HE rounds are meant to do damage. That's your first problem. The new HE rounds are meant to consistently damage and destroy modules/crew, which it does a lot better on the sandbox than on live servers. 

 

HE tests first, individual tanks second. All the low-skill howitzer's will probably getting AP shells with mediocre penetration to off set the loss of fire-and-forget HE derps. 

 

That's the thing though, they already do that now. Even the smaller caliber HE rounds. If making it more reliable to destroy modules and crew, then it has to be considerably more than on standard and even far more than premium ammo. Contrary to others that claim HE is no skill ammo, to use it effectively, players have to use a slower velocity shell and must actually aim at weaker sections of armour to do damage to health and modules. And for tanks that use derp, they have to contend with longer reload, worse gun handling, accuracy and slower shell velocity as well. 

 

And quite frankly, I would refrain from stating derps will get an AP round. That is unfounded and just wishful thinking that quite frankly WG has rarely satisfied.

 

You can call them low-skill and fire-and-forget. It just reminds me of a former pay to win mechanic that has destroyed balance instead. HE has nowhere the same effect on this game as that mechanic.


Edited by SpectreHD, Oct 22 2019 - 13:10.


HeraldricKnight #105 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 13:11

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 22 2019 - 12:04, said:

 

You can call them low-skill and fire-and-forget. It just reminds me of a former pay to win mechanic that has destroyed balance instead. HE has nowhere the same effect on this game as that mechanic.

 

I've never seen premium ammo destroy ammo racks from the outside. I've never seen premium ammo set engine fires from shooting the commander's cupola. I've never seen premium ammo kill crew from the outside... 



SpectreHD #106 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 13:20

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 22 2019 - 20:11, said:

 

I've never seen premium ammo destroy ammo racks from the outside. I've never seen premium ammo set engine fires from shooting the commander's cupola. I've never seen premium ammo kill crew from the outside... 

 

I've never seen HE do full damage to an angled turret of an E100 or Maus through the front and I have never seen HE destroy tier 4-6 and tier 8-10 matches which then caused the HE to be nerfed. Premium ammo sure as hell did all that.

 

Heck, I have never seen any tank catch fire from being shot at the commander's cupola. Have you? Does that freak incident occur that many times that it is actually a problem? All those module damage you listed, I would say come from actually aiming with HE. They don't just come from shooting HE.



MichalOtto #107 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 13:47

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If Wargaming goes ahead with this HE change they should offer a refund to all the people that bought the KV-2 ®. The HE rounds on the KV-2 ® is the only reason I bought that tank in the first place. The AP rounds have tier 4 penetration and it's not like you can aim for weak spots in a KV-2. The KV-2 ® also does not have the option of another gun like on the normal KV-2. I realize it's most likely a bunch of Skorpion G drivers that complained "my daddy bought me this tank and a tier 6 can 1 shot me" and now the fun police have taken notice. If you want to drive a Skorpion G and don't want to get shot, don't get spotted then.

 

Wargaming why don't you leave the fun stuff alone like the KV-2 and it's HE shells and fix the things that are really broken in the game like the Match Maker. Why are there so many 15 - 0 to 3 games currently that are over in like 2 to 3 minutes? Figure out what is causing the imbalance and fix that. The HE shells are not bother anyone except the guys with no armor and they should not get spotted in the first place.



HeraldricKnight #108 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 15:02

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 22 2019 - 12:20, said:

 

I've never seen HE do full damage to an angled turret of an E100 or Maus through the front and I have never seen HE destroy tier 4-6 and tier 8-10 matches which then caused the HE to be nerfed. Premium ammo sure as hell did all that.

 

Heck, I have never seen any tank catch fire from being shot at the commander's cupola. Have you? Does that freak incident occur that many times that it is actually a problem? All those module damage you listed, I would say come from actually aiming with HE. They don't just come from shooting HE.


They had to nerf HE before when people could shoot the ground underneath the enemy tanks and the resulting splash would do full damage, so yea HE had to go through its own changes. 

 

Playing in Light Tanks, you lose modules and crews from turreted HE landing outside the tank. Coupled with the weird algorithm that Wargaming admitted was unintentionally wonky, it was not uncommon for any tanks to lose a random module or crew member from shooting HE at cupolas because of how the game positioned them within the tanks and how frigging huge the splash radius was. 



comradekillshot #109 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 20:29

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The vote continues to creep more and more towards a big negative in the community.

Baronvonlichdisbaum #110 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 21:09

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The only thing good about this is it will somewhat fix arty but its the wrong way to go about it. They should just fix arty and not ruin derp tanks like the KV-2. Tweek the premium rounds to fix the problem. 

Carde #111 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 22:32

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Glad to see derps gettings nerfed.
 
 


Mancu #112 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 23:18

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 22 2019 - 15:29, said:

The vote continues to creep more and more towards a big negative in the community.

 

Yep, with almost 300 people having voted so far only 12% of NA players think that this is a good idea.



comradekillshot #113 Posted Oct 23 2019 - 07:55

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View PostMancu, on Oct 22 2019 - 23:18, said:

 

Yep, with almost 300 people having voted so far only 12% of NA players think that this is a good idea.

 

Not only that but I am asking people in game and within my clan about it and the numbers between that and this poll seem to align quite well.



SpectreHD #114 Posted Oct 23 2019 - 17:41

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Well. Looks like the negative reception and/or feedback on the test server has resulted in considerable buffs to HE.

 

From TheDailyBounce.net.

 

Block Quote

  • The damage of all HE shells will be increased by 75%. This should affect the effectiveness and popularity of all HE shells, both low and high calibre.
  • Damage drop in the splash radius will be corrected. Along the edge, it will change from 0.1 to 0.5. Also, damage distribution in the splash radius will be made evener. This change will improve the potential to deal damage when hitting external modules.
  • The probability of dealing critical damage to modules will be increased.
  • The angle of spall spread on damage to internal modules will be increased from 45 to 60 degrees.
  • Splash radius mechanics will be reconfigured to do more damage. This will be most noticeable for low-armoured vehicles.
  • Discrepancies in some HE shells’ damage numbers compared to version 1.5 (state of the game Sandbox is based on) will be fixed.

 

 



Mikosah #115 Posted Oct 23 2019 - 18:34

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Having given it some thought, the proposed changes do make a little bit of sense but only in a very limited context. Specifically talking about low-caliber guns whose HE is currently useless at everything, making it at least useful at one thing- resetting caps, is something. And the vague idea of HE being more consistent and predictable has merit in theory, but I'm not so sure about in practice. 

 

But the thing is that there's no reason to totally rework the entire system, as we do know how to make low-caliber HE useful even in the current mechanics and that's simply to give it enough penetration to actually counter thin armor. HESH is HE as it should be.



TheHQ #116 Posted Oct 23 2019 - 19:17

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View PostMikosah, on Oct 23 2019 - 10:34, said:

Specifically talking about low-caliber guns whose HE is currently useless at everything, making it at least useful at one thing- resetting caps, is something. 

 

You could reliably resest the caps with HE before the changes, just aim at the tracks. A 76mm HE round could damage an E-100's track, damage it and reset 10/10 times

View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 23 2019 - 09:41, said:

Well. Looks like the negative reception and/or feedback on the test server has resulted in considerable buffs to HE.

 

From TheDailyBounce.net.

 

Edit nvm


Edited by TheHQ, Oct 23 2019 - 19:18.


Mikosah #117 Posted Oct 23 2019 - 21:21

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View PostTheHQ, on Oct 23 2019 - 12:17, said:

 

You could reliably resest the caps with HE before the changes, just aim at the tracks. A 76mm HE round could damage an E-100's track, damage it and reset 10/10 times

 

Correct, but technically the same is also true of AP and all other shell types. So that still leaves us with the problem of low-caliber HE simply not having a purpose.



ballyspringer #118 Posted Oct 24 2019 - 01:22

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View PostBaronvonlichdisbaum, on Oct 22 2019 - 20:09, said:

They should just fix arty and not ruin derp tanks like the KV-2.


In my opinion derp tanks are much worse for the game than arty is.  Granted I understand they can be fun to play (Derps) and it's something different which isn't bad in itself, but I just can't stand them.  I hate playing them as they take absolutely zero skill and I hate playing against them because again they take zero skill.  I have to think a hell of a lot more in an arty than I do driving around in a KV-2.  But that's just my opinion :D



comradekillshot #119 Posted Oct 24 2019 - 08:20

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 23 2019 - 17:41, said:

Well. Looks like the negative reception and/or feedback on the test server has resulted in considerable buffs to HE.

 

From TheDailyBounce.net.

 

 

 

Thats a lot better. I dont mind the alpha being lower as long as I keep my damage consistent. As I have been saying over and over again HE shells play a special role in my load out for dealing with big super hard to pen tanks and allowing me to chip away at their health.



HeraldricKnight #120 Posted Oct 24 2019 - 11:49

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View Postcomradekillshot, on Oct 24 2019 - 07:20, said:

 

Thats a lot better. I dont mind the alpha being lower as long as I keep my damage consistent. As I have been saying over and over again HE shells play a special role in my load out for dealing with big super hard to pen tanks and allowing me to chip away at their health.

 

I too feel that armor in a tank game should be irrelevant. How dare that T-29 use his armor effectively. Doesn't he know that's not allowed? 

 

Better sit in front of him and spam that HE. Aiming is just way too hard. 







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