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High Explosive (HE) Ammo Rebalance Comparison w/ KV-2


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SpectreHD #41 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 15:22

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 21 2019 - 21:32, said:

 

Aside from the constant chatter about Landmines, which I've never heard of, there seems to be more in favor of HE changes than against, and the only ones against it are because of the derp guns, which again isn't an issue because Wargaming can easily add AP shells on the backend once the HE testing is completed. 

 

It's certainly not as bad as the drama queens in NA make it out to be.  Many like the small caliber HE changes. 

 

Edit: Ah, they refer to HE shells as Landmines... Not a bad analogy to be honest. 

 

Yeah, in the first 11 pages, there was a handful that like it. Some like it because they think it will nerf arty, many ask about the KV-2R.

 

None mention about the small caliber HE but that may be more at the later pages. But yeah, it is good to make low caliber HE useful because they aren't. But I do not agree with how they are doing it. It is a massive outright nerf to something that does not need to be touched.

 

And yeah, took me awhile to realise HE is translated to "landmine". I will just disagree on it being a good analogy.

Heavies for some reason translated to "woman".

 

But as from what I can see in the first 11 pages, most are negative towards the changes.



HeraldricKnight #42 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 15:58

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View PostSpectreHD, on Oct 21 2019 - 14:22, said:

 

Yeah, in the first 11 pages, there was a handful that like it. Some like it because they think it will nerf arty, many ask about the KV-2R.

 

None mention about the small caliber HE but that may be more at the later pages. But yeah, it is good to make low caliber HE useful because they aren't. But I do not agree with how they are doing it. It is a massive outright nerf to something that does not need to be touched.

 

And yeah, took me awhile to realise HE is translated to "landmine". I will just disagree on it being a good analogy.

Heavies for some reason translated to "woman".

 

But as from what I can see in the first 11 pages, most are negative towards the changes.


A lot of people asked about HESH, even though Wargaming explicitly mentioned that it wasn't in the testing phase yes. A handful were complaining about derp guns, even though Wargaming again explained that the testing was for the ammunition and not individual tanks. 

 

The problem with making HE more consistent and not addressing the damage is that high caliber guns would get a massive buff with no drawbacks. And people aren't thinking about outside of heavy tank brawls. Light Tanks, Mediums, and glass TD's already combust at the slightest fart as it is. 

 



SpectreHD #43 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 16:17

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 21 2019 - 22:58, said:


A lot of people asked about HESH, even though Wargaming explicitly mentioned that it wasn't in the testing phase yes. A handful were complaining about derp guns, even though Wargaming again explained that the testing was for the ammunition and not individual tanks. 

 

The problem with making HE more consistent and not addressing the damage is that high caliber guns would get a massive buff with no drawbacks. And people aren't thinking about outside of heavy tank brawls. Light Tanks, Mediums, and glass TD's already combust at the slightest fart as it is. 

 

 

I think a more accurate representation will be in the last 50 pages. I think the early pages are more reactionary and no one has gone to the SB server.

 

If I were to be fair, this is just the first iteration of the test so everything gets hit with a blanket change. If it were me, this mechanic should be implemented individually on a per vehicle basis or even on a per gun basis so the lower calibers get to enjoy some consistency while others don't. But as it stands, when the Type 5 heavy, with its premium HE, hits for around 200 and less against a Maus, and even with three 0 damage shots, it is a major issue.

 

I can accept 0 penetration but the massive damage decrease is stupid. The only way I can accept this change is if the damage stays and vehicles whose main playstyle is slinging HE get appropriate gun handling and reload buffs.



gideon_an #44 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 01:47

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I can respect an opinion if it was actually based on some measure of balance. I watched the video. KV-2 with HE is dropped to 600 DPM. Is that playable. Dez gaming had a simular one with the Type 5 Heavy and a 990 DPM. Same question Is that playable?

So now that those guns are unplayable what next. Do I get a 50K free exp refund for the unplayable gun on the Type 5? What about the T49, SU-152........

And without HE what do you do against the tanks that AP will not pen? Or the tanks that even APCR can't pen with an effective armor far surpassing the pen. You can't even use the "learn to aim nub" argument when your BEST shot is against 250 plus effective armor.

While I agree with HE insta deaths suck. I was brawling in my ELC EVEN 90 in the city on Live Oakes when a T49 said "Ok enough of that." and just came up to me and one shotted me. I have the T49 and do the same thing so sucks but isn't like I wouldn't do it to him. I just laughed and shrugged. I was brawling I was going to get slapped by something.

 



HeraldricKnight #45 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 02:26

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View Postgideon_an, on Oct 22 2019 - 00:47, said:

I can respect an opinion if it was actually based on some measure of balance. I watched the video. KV-2 with HE is dropped to 600 DPM. Is that playable. Dez gaming had a simular one with the Type 5 Heavy and a 990 DPM. Same question Is that playable?

So now that those guns are unplayable what next. Do I get a 50K free exp refund for the unplayable gun on the Type 5? What about the T49, SU-152........

And without HE what do you do against the tanks that AP will not pen? Or the tanks that even APCR can't pen with an effective armor far surpassing the pen. You can't even use the "learn to aim nub" argument when your BEST shot is against 250 plus effective armor.

While I agree with HE insta deaths suck. I was brawling in my ELC EVEN 90 in the city on Live Oakes when a T49 said "Ok enough of that." and just came up to me and one shotted me. I have the T49 and do the same thing so sucks but isn't like I wouldn't do it to him. I just laughed and shrugged. I was brawling I was going to get slapped by something.

 


People are not giving Wargaming enough time to actually test the HE mechanics before declaring that the game will officially die because their one-clicker got nerfed. If they would remember that the intention is to TEST the HE mechanics first and foremost and that Wargaming would look at individual tanks after, than a lot of the 'backlash' would blow over. 

 

But since this is the age of the internet and rage gets you clicks, here we are. 



gideon_an #46 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 05:41

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They have a poor track record on testing. The Obj 268 4 was over powered. It was tested and released in the over powered state. British lights under powered just as bad. Surprise released under powered and left under powered.

It isn't hard to figure out that when you drop the DPM of a KV-2 to 600 and a Type 5 to 900 it is unplayable. You can test it all you want but a 600 DPM on a KV-2 will not play any better. I don't think any amount of testing will make it better.



_Brew_ #47 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 03:54

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So what Sahm is saying is that the KV-2 is no longer going to be fun to play or bring me joy.   Well, then what's the freaking point of logging in to the game?

 

Here's to hoping they don't touch the KV-2R.  



jamesdoz #48 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 04:13

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View PostIndygoEEI, on Oct 19 2019 - 02:26, said:

 

Hey Sahm, I see you don't have the Premium KV2R.  Would you like one when it goes on

sale next time?

It's on sale now



TheseViolentDelights #49 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 07:30

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1) Selling the KV-2® premium right before nerfing HE is a [edited]move

 

2) HE is one of the few reasons armor still matters. Getting occasionally penned by an HE spamming KV-2 or JP Heavy is the only thing keeping fast tanks with no armor in check.



_Brew_ #50 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 11:55

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View PostTheseViolentDelights, on Nov 01 2019 - 01:30, said:

1) Selling the KV-2® premium right before nerfing HE is a [edited]move

 

 

 

 

Yep.  I've got a 30% off sitting in my premium shop, but I'm not going to reward WG for their stupidity.  I could get a KV-2R now, but who knows if they'll let it remain the fun tank it is or if they'll change the ammunition values and ruin the tank?  Remember, they are changing a game mechanic, not changing the tank itself so they could try to skirt those pesky EU consumer protection laws.



FrozenKemp #51 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 12:04

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You drama llamas need to read this:

 

https://worldoftanks...ox-update-1019/

 

"During the last period, we collected data for HE shells with different efficiency settings, from the highest to the lowest possible values."


It's TESTING.  They have been TESTING different values for HE to determine what they consider the right amount of damage. If Sam was posting when damage was lowest, you will get an a distorted idea of how bad things are going to be. 


Edited by FrozenKemp, Nov 01 2019 - 12:06.


_Brew_ #52 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 12:14

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View PostFrozenKemp, on Nov 01 2019 - 06:04, said:

You drama llamas need to read this:

 

https://worldoftanks...ox-update-1019/

 

"During the last period, we collected data for HE shells with different efficiency settings, from the highest to the lowest possible values."


It's TESTING.  They have been TESTING different values for HE to determine what they consider the right amount of damage. If Sam was posting when damage was lowest, you will get an a distorted idea of how bad things are going to be. 

 

If WG wants to avoid drama they should test under an NDA and only release info once they know for sure what they plan to do.

 

So, in the name of drama.  Let's continue:

 

If you're going to remove the massive HE potential in an effort to make the gun "more consistent," then you need to massively increase the reload and gun handling to compensate for the loss of alpha. 

 

For example, the KV-2 with a 152 derp firing HE currently sits at 2372.5 DPM if you pen every shot.  Nobody pens every shot, but then again with the new pen value of 0mm nobody will ever pen every shot or any shot for that matter.  So, the KV-2 DPM should be adjusted to remain the same.  Firing the new 330 alpha HE rounds that means the reload of the gun should be reduced to 8.3 seconds with much improved gun handling.  I'd say other tank aspects such as view range etc should also be changed to compensate for this nerf too.



teamoldmill #53 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 14:32

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View Post_Brew_, on Nov 01 2019 - 11:14, said:

 

If WG wants to avoid drama they should test under an NDA and only release info once they know for sure what they plan to do.

 

So, in the name of drama.  Let's continue:

 

If you're going to remove the massive HE potential in an effort to make the gun "more consistent," then you need to massively increase the reload and gun handling to compensate for the loss of alpha. 

 

For example, the KV-2 with a 152 derp firing HE currently sits at 2372.5 DPM if you pen every shot.  Nobody pens every shot, but then again with the new pen value of 0mm nobody will ever pen every shot or any shot for that matter.  So, the KV-2 DPM should be adjusted to remain the same.  Firing the new 330 alpha HE rounds that means the reload of the gun should be reduced to 8.3 seconds with much improved gun handling.  I'd say other tank aspects such as view range etc should also be changed to compensate for this nerf too.

 

DPM can be badly overrated. The first shot counts for much more than sustained on paper DPM. If DPM was king, some tanks that really suck with good DPM would not suck. Helpful sure. But raw DPM is not what makes the KV-2 so crazy. Tiger has good DPM, it is a garbage tank. Panther 88 has pretty good DPM too, is that a powerhouse?

 

 



The_War_Master_2019 #54 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 14:35

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View PostPanzerXO, on Oct 19 2019 - 04:41, said:

The RU Players hate HE -- Because Stallinium doesn't matter vs HE

Every Russian player I talked to on the sandbox hates these HE changes. Especially since the Russian derp tanks are going to be hurtin for certain 



ca009877 #55 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 17:12

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Reason I have almost 5000 battles with the kv 2 is the HE.  Shooting HE into a tier eights turret is the only way a kv2 can deal damage most of the time.  Unless you have a side or rear shot, AP bounces off most equal or higher tier heavy armour.  The long load and aim.....who can really switch shells through out a battle?  A t29 is hull down and I have AP loaded I'll back away and reload and maybe my perk will work this time, but usually the t29 has done damage to my teammates before I can help.

_Brew_ #56 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 20:27

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View Postteamoldmill, on Nov 01 2019 - 08:32, said:

 

DPM can be badly overrated. The first shot counts for much more than sustained on paper DPM. If DPM was king, some tanks that really suck with good DPM would not suck. Helpful sure. But raw DPM is not what makes the KV-2 so crazy. Tiger has good DPM, it is a garbage tank. Panther 88 has pretty good DPM too, is that a powerhouse?

 

 

 

You are correct.  But they are taking the KV-2's massive alpha away so it won't be scary at all.  It will be 19 seconds reload on probably 199 alpha damage.  So, in order to improve that they need to reduce that reload by a LOT.  It will still trade terribly with the new HE shells, but 8 seconds for the HE is better than waiting 19 seconds.



_Brew_ #57 Posted Nov 01 2019 - 20:28

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View Post_Brew_, on Nov 01 2019 - 14:27, said:

 

You are correct.  But they are taking the KV-2's massive alpha away so it won't be scary at all.  It will be 19 seconds reload on probably 199 alpha damage.  So, in order to improve that they need to reduce that reload by a LOT.  It will still trade terribly with the new HE shells, but 8 seconds for the HE is better than waiting 19 seconds.

 

Let me add to this.  If they are removing the potential for any major alpha, then not only should they reduce the reload they should give the high caliber derps the same effect as arty stun.  You know why?  Just to anger the idiots who think HE is some kind of major problem.






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