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Guido brought up something... and it bugs me too


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PanzerXO #1 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 03:38

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Way back in the way back... this game used to be (seemed at least to be) dominated by Mediums.  And it was fun.

Then it went Super Heavy focused and got more campy / brawly

… And now it seems only campy.

 

Like all the time campy - regardless of where you are on the map, what tier is being played, you name it.  Camp.

.

I mean, it's with the Meds that I get frustrated the most.  In fact, mid-to late game I see TDs having to push while Meds are doing the camping and sniping.

 

Why?

 

EDIT: Just a question for the old-timers: Remember when they got rid of the T-50-2 because it was too... spazzy.  Was it after that when the Med Meta took over?  Is it the Clown Car meta that makes everyone camp today?


Edited by PanzerXO, Oct 21 2019 - 03:43.


tod914 #2 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 03:55

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Roll it back 3 years or so.  Give me all the unaltered old maps and I'll be good to go :)

tanopasman62 #3 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 04:21

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It's TDs what made the game campy, why would you push if you're gonna be outspotted and deleted by 5,6 or even 7-8 TDs wanking behind a bush?

 

Wheelies are actually good on this regard because their speed allows them to get closer without getting hit by said TDs, they are not perfect but they are good regardless.



PanzerXO #4 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 04:29

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View Posttanopasman62, on Oct 20 2019 - 22:21, said:

It's TDs what made the game campy, why would you push if you're gonna be outspotted and deleted by 5,6 or even 7-8 TDs wanking behind a bush?

 

Wheelies are actually good on this regard because their speed allows them to get closer without getting hit by said TDs, they are not perfect but they are good regardless.


I'm not so sure: Death Star was an old saying back in the day - We've had big TDs all along.  It's some kind of player habit (the camping in all classes)… I'd hate to just chalk it up to 'Bad Players' - because there are a bunch of good players still in the game... and the only thing I can see is that it's gotta be something new-ish, rather than an old problem.  

 

 


Edited by PanzerXO, Oct 21 2019 - 04:35.


GeorgePreddy #5 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 04:52

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vinnybagadonuts #6 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 04:58

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a good player can be very successful using aggressive tactics, as well as sitting in the back and sniping from strong/known positions

 

....meanwhile a notsogood player will find more success (assuming you are rating success in terms of damage output) by staying alive in the back and sniping vs attempting same aggressive behavior that in many cases results in a quick death and less damage.

 

my take anyway.



JakeTheMystic #7 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 05:32

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I think people started to camp noticeably more after the arty changes to add stun, making it more annoying to play against. The solution? Simply not get spotted by sitting in the back. I think they tried to add the clown cars as a remedy to stop camping (or at least get people to move more) and if anything its only promoted camping even more. 

 

I personally enjoyed the super heavy meta, but it started to get really bad with HEAT and tanks like the 183 getting reworked that it just killed off the Maus meta for the most part. Especially with the newer maps, you either get spotted while leaving spawn or you're spotted trying to get to the city (Highway, Studzianki, Glacier, Mink, even Paris) where maps just aren't great for slow heavies. You're forced to either sit by spawn or risk getting spotted wherever you go. I just don't really see super heavies making a comeback any time soon, even when they nerf HEAT getting spotted on most maps still makes it unplayable. 

 

As for mediums camping, they just feel better after seeing their high Wn8. It's a whole lot easier to get Wn8 in a medium than a TD, so why not just play a med and fill the same role? 



PanzerXO #8 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 05:45

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Oct 20 2019 - 23:32, said:

I think people started to camp noticeably more after the arty changes to add stun, making it more annoying to play against. The solution? Simply not get spotted by sitting in the back. I think they tried to add the clown cars as a remedy to stop camping (or at least get people to move more) and if anything its only promoted camping even more. 

 

I personally enjoyed the super heavy meta, but it started to get really bad with HEAT and tanks like the 183 getting reworked that it just killed off the Maus meta for the most part. Especially with the newer maps, you either get spotted while leaving spawn or you're spotted trying to get to the city (Highway, Studzianki, Glacier, Mink, even Paris) where maps just aren't great for slow heavies. You're forced to either sit by spawn or risk getting spotted wherever you go. I just don't really see super heavies making a comeback any time soon, even when they nerf HEAT getting spotted on most maps still makes it unplayable. 

 

As for mediums camping, they just feel better after seeing their high Wn8. It's a whole lot easier to get Wn8 in a medium than a TD, so why not just play a med and fill the same role? 


I see notorious guys like Garbad (and the other Troll-Uni's) of the old days rolling in their 'graves' over the players calling themselves "Unicums" today.  Can't think of his name, but there was a guy back in the day who was a total jerk on the forums... but he could tank - and outplay 90% of the Purples today.  (note: I acknowledge that there are several really good players today with purple stats who could outplay those guys - but not the general run of the mill "Mah Stats" folks)

 

Edit: if you are a "Camping, Damage Farming Purple"... You know who you are.  If you're one of the truly talented players of this game, this should not offend you


Edited by PanzerXO, Oct 21 2019 - 05:47.


Avalon304 #9 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 11:02

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View PostJakeTheMystic, on Oct 20 2019 - 21:32, said:

As for mediums camping, they just feel better after seeing their high Wn8. It's a whole lot easier to get Wn8 in a medium than a TD, so why not just play a med and fill the same role? 

 

I mean... its way easier to get WN8 in TDs... especially high alpha ones. It both requires less shots to get to their expected values and its easier to get kills in them. Mediums have to expose more to get to their expected damage values, and generally take more risks in the process.



Blackstone #10 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 12:09

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I think it's a combination of factors:

At first it was arty that promoted camping. Then the introduction of armored clown cars made this even more so. From there, you probably see more TDs in matches then you've had in the past. It really isn't unusual to see half of each team being comprised of TDs now. Camping with TDs is the meme now.

 

It all has to do with spotting: he who spots first generally wins.

 

Why play a medium or a heavy when you'll either get out-spotted by some clown car buzzing by and then get nuked by sky cancer? When armored cars are in the match, people tend to stay in the back until they're taken out of the match. I wouldn't be surprised if you play a heavy tank now, you have a spall liner installed. It's practically required. The steel rain is that bad.



Guido1212 #11 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 12:50

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It's been a slow creeping paralysis that's extremely noticeable now.  At least on NA, I have no idea how the other servers play.  There are several factors at play IMO.

 

1.  The 2 key.  Knowing that most people will simply pres 2 to get a wildly higher pen value discourages heavily armored tanks from making bold plays.  Or even medium armored tanks from trying the get up and sidescrape or use that "strong" turret.  It's hard to risk manage with that game mechanic so most people manage it by not taking any.

 

2.  Artillery.  This has always discouraged aggressive play.  Sure it can dig out campers and corner/strong point holders, but that is typically after it has hammered any one with the temerity to show an aggressive play of any kind.  Because it is not threatened (ever really, until the end) in the game, it then has the leisure to take out the campers and strong point holders.  People hide from it.

 

3.  TD infestation.  As noted above it's very common to have a team made up of 1/2 TDs, often with very high alpha (and the above mentioned 2 key to add insult to injury).  This discourages most aggressive moves.  A good mobile force can out maneuver TDs pretty easily, but that is rare in pubs.  so the "mediums counter TDS" expectation by the devs is fine in theory but very limited in practice.

 

4.  Wheeled tanks.  Combined with point 5 below, these have had the opposite effect of opening up game play.  They have opened up game play for that particular tank type, but the rest have to find longer routes or hide when they are zipping around and surviving for much much longer than that kind of play should survive.  It's effective game play and some tracked lights used to be able to do a similar thing years ago, but it was recently death until the wheeled tanks showed up and threw out one of the most basic and important game mechanics, being tracked.  Add the ridiculous moving accuracy and (illegal for every other tank) auto aim and you have one of the worst game altering additions to the game in the last 3 years.

 

5.  Map design.  There's a lot of issues here, but the camping and hiding is exacerbated by the mighty wheeled tanks spotting people (and standard lights as well) just trying to get to position and exposing them to fire from map positions that allow obliteration from minute 1.  So people take longer safer routes and tend to stay back.  It doesn't take too long to learn that going near the lake on lakeville for example is insta death or at lest half your HP gone from what are essentially campers.  So people adjust, go the long way or just camp themselves/start playing the same TDs that keep whacking them looking to do the same thing.  Several maps have been changed with assassin lines consisting of bushes and places to snipe the enemy team immediately after spawn.  Nearly every map has TD camping nests at the very back.  Guess what, they get used, a lot.

 

My two cents.  For me the fix starts with fixing the 2 key issue.  But it's not damage that needs changed, the pen value of gold needs to be much less so the balance of armor to pen is easier to manage.

 

Cheers,

 

Guido



HeraldricKnight #12 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 12:58

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The only disturbing thing Guido brought up yesterday was that he willingly bought Starbucks ground coffee...

Copacetic #13 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 13:44

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"4.  Wheeled tanks.  Combined with point 5 below, these have had the opposite effect of opening up game play.  They have opened up game play for that particular tank type, but the rest have to find longer routes or hide when they are zipping around and surviving for much much longer than that kind of play should survive.  It's effective game play and some tracked lights used to be able to do a similar thing years ago, but it was recently death until the wheeled tanks showed up and threw out one of the most basic and important game mechanics, being tracked.  Add the ridiculous moving accuracy and (illegal for every other tank) auto aim and you have one of the worst game altering additions to the game in the last 3 years."

 

 

Yup no money for commies until wheelies are nerfed.



Badkarma #14 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 13:53

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View PostPanzerXO, on Oct 21 2019 - 04:29, said:


I'm not so sure: Death Star was an old saying back in the day - We've had big TDs all along.  It's some kind of player habit (the camping in all classes)… I'd hate to just chalk it up to 'Bad Players' - because there are a bunch of good players still in the game... and the only thing I can see is that it's gotta be something new-ish, rather than an old problem.  

 

 

Tough to not be a bit passive when there's 5 lights/wheelies per team and three arty per team; 1/2 of the reds are either deleting you from the other side of the map or making it impossible to advance without being HE snapshotted by a clown car moving at 80kmh while zig-zagging.



Guido1212 #15 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 14:56

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View PostHeraldricKnight, on Oct 21 2019 - 11:58, said:

The only disturbing thing Guido brought up yesterday was that he willingly bought Starbucks ground coffee...

Sadly it’s worse, much worse.

 

I bought Starbucks K-Cups for the Keurig...



PanzerXO #16 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 17:33

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View PostGuido1212, on Oct 21 2019 - 08:56, said:

Sadly it’s worse, much worse.

 

I bought Starbucks K-Cups for the Keurig...

 

Damn - that is worse.  Didn't you learn anything from your time with us Jarheads?  Fresh ground is the only way

 

 

(or rather 'whatever you can get, so long as it's black!) 



Guido1212 #17 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 17:52

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View PostPanzerXO, on Oct 21 2019 - 16:33, said:

 

Damn - that is worse.  Didn't you learn anything from your time with us Jarheads?  Fresh ground is the only way

 

 

(or rather 'whatever you can get, so long as it's black!) 

Man I love fresh ground and brewed but I fall for “easy” nearly every time!

 

 



ThePigSheFlies #18 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 18:02

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really really good players still tend to lean on mediums, and mobile/brawly heavies for a couple of reasons.

 

  1. flexibility - being able to flex out of a bad situation enables prolonged life span, more damage, and more chances to win, even if the odds are stacked against them
    • this also allows the player to play it in a variety of roles, from brawling, to sniping, to spotting ridges (Depending on turret/mobility)
  2. the maps.  so many of the maps render one or more other tank classes just simply too painful.  the funnel maps make paper tanks less enjoyable due to having to face check heavy armor, and the wide open, flowing maps make heavy armor less enjoyable.

 

that's not to say that they don't play TDs, or even in some cases super heavies (missions and boredom happens)



JakeTheMystic #19 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 21:07

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View PostAvalon304, on Oct 21 2019 - 01:02, said:

 

I mean... its way easier to get WN8 in TDs... especially high alpha ones. It both requires less shots to get to their expected values and its easier to get kills in them. Mediums have to expose more to get to their expected damage values, and generally take more risks in the process.

 

I've always considered TDs to be harder, especially the higher alpha once since the reload is longer. If you hit your shots and have opportunities then sure, but once you miss one or especially 2 that 20 second reload and missed opportunities is going to leave you at a sub-2k wn8. That thrown in with troll rng where you have odd ricochets and non-pens that I just don't see how it's consistent. 

 

The strv on the other hand I would think to be easier, high rof and insanse dpm, even with the high expected values as long as its an alright map, its flexible enough to do well every time for an experienced player. 

 

Mediums are just so flexible that it really doesn't rely on map selection either, where TDs suck on city maps (unless its a 183) a medium can flex to get around the enemy or at least move to a weaker side to try and win the flank. Even on maps like prok, mali, muro, the gun handling and dpm matter more than alpha if your team isn't letting the enemy expose themselves to your camping TDs. 

 

For example, 

Foch 155 averages 2,474 with 1.27 kpg - 2014 wn8

Foch B averages 2,275 with 1.55 kpg - 1891 wn8

907 averages 2,487 with 1.46 kpg - 2232 wn8

25T averages 2,285 with 1.51 kpg - 2180 wn8

 

They're alll in the same ballpark but the TDs have slightly lower wn8, at least from my experiences. 



Avalon304 #20 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 22:51

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So just using two of your tanks the BatChat 25t and the Foch 155, if we take a look at their expected values from this table (which the the table used to calculate WN8):

 

The Foch 155 needs 1.1 frags per battle, 2100 damage dealt per battle, 0.8 initial spots per battle, 0.6 defense points per battle and a 49% winrate inorder to gedt yellow WN8 in it.

 

The BC25t needs 1 kill per battle, 1800 damage dealt, 1.7 initial spots, 0.7 defense points and a 48% win rate for the same yellow WN8. (Ive rounded some numbers in both of these stats just to keep things simple)

 

Now, Foch 155 750dpm memes aside the foch is going to need to land, on average, 3 shots of damage a game to get yellow WN8. The BC25t on the other hand needs to land 5 shots of damage to get to the same level. Both need to effectively land 1 drums worth of damage a game but the Foch 155 can be in the back, camoed up and safe while dealing its damage, and it doesnt really need to worry about spotting if it doesnt want to and the Bat needs to be closer, and expose more often and take greater risks in order to meet its expected values.

 

If you want to pad WN8 one of the better ways to do it is to play a TD and just farm lots of damage. Its an easy way to high WN8 numbers (though usually at the expense of Win Rate). (And actually if you really want to pad WN8 you just play light tanks, because their expected values for damage are usually low).






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