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Guido brought up something... and it bugs me too


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My_Name_Is_Nobody_ #21 Posted Oct 21 2019 - 23:32

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It seems to me that it's because wins aren't that relevant compared to stats. I know almost a fact that my t-25/2, chi-nu-kai, and sta-2 will 'score' higher if I camp, but then it ends up me vs 3 or 4, it seems, for the loss, so I play ultra aggressive and get beans, but more likely for the win while watching. I understand that it would create other issues if they reward the WIN moreso, but I think it would be better fun in the end. 

 

I just found myself annoyed by this as well and popped in here for a break - to see this.

 

Also, the jeeps, or wheelies, are frightening


Edited by My_Name_Is_Nobody_, Oct 21 2019 - 23:33.


Apache1990 #22 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 00:59

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View PostPanzerXO, on Oct 21 2019 - 00:45, said:

Can't think of his name, but there was a guy back in the day who was a total jerk on the forums... but he could tank - and outplay 90% of the Purples today.  (note: I acknowledge that there are several really good players today with purple stats who could outplay those guys - but not the general run of the mill "Mah Stats" folks)

 

You could be describing any of several old great players, though I feel like you're talking about CarbonWard.  I miss having that generation of players active in randoms.  Matches aren't the same without them.



Trauglodyte #23 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 14:56

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View PostGuido1212, on Oct 21 2019 - 12:50, said:

5.  Map design.  There's a lot of issues here, but the camping and hiding is exacerbated by the mighty wheeled tanks spotting people (and standard lights as well) just trying to get to position and exposing them to fire from map positions that allow obliteration from minute 1.  So people take longer safer routes and tend to stay back.  It doesn't take too long to learn that going near the lake on lakeville for example is insta death or at lest half your HP gone from what are essentially campers.  So people adjust, go the long way or just camp themselves/start playing the same TDs that keep whacking them looking to do the same thing.  Several maps have been changed with assassin lines consisting of bushes and places to snipe the enemy team immediately after spawn.  Nearly every map has TD camping nests at the very back.  Guess what, they get used, a lot.

 

 

I don't disagree with your other points.  Rather, point #5 - map design - is what is killing and slowing the game down.  Two great examples are Malinovka and Steppes.  In regards to Malinovka, since they took the coast road away, you can no longer make that push, unless you've got an insane amount of speed.  Even then, you're guaranteed to get spotted out and take loads of damage.  And, in both Steppes and Malinovka, you've got the massive sprawling central area that is 100% pointless because you're guaranteed to get spotted out and killed, if you try it.  Steppes is the classic "go screw yourself" map because it is big and flat.  YET, the only viable areas are the dips on the 1 and 0 lines and the TD locations on the C and H lines.  In short, both maps would probably be better off just being two vertical lanes with the rest of it thrown away, given that the central territories are suicide runs.

 

Don't get me started on the central part of Province.  Oye!

 

View PostGuido1212, on Oct 21 2019 - 14:56, said:

Sadly it’s worse, much worse.

 

I bought Starbucks K-Cups for the Keurig...

 

Real men don't use Keurig machines.  They add extra hair to their chests by bypassing all of that nancy crap and drink instant:

 

  

 

All of it, in a damn can like a man likes it!  Hell, he LOVES IT!!!

 

View PostThePigSheFlies, on Oct 21 2019 - 18:02, said:

really really good players still tend to lean on mediums, and mobile/brawly heavies for a couple of reasons.

 

  1. flexibility - being able to flex out of a bad situation enables prolonged life span, more damage, and more chances to win, even if the odds are stacked against them
    • this also allows the player to play it in a variety of roles, from brawling, to sniping, to spotting ridges (Depending on turret/mobility)
  2. the maps.  so many of the maps render one or more other tank classes just simply too painful.  the funnel maps make paper tanks less enjoyable due to having to face check heavy armor, and the wide open, flowing maps make heavy armor less enjoyable.

 

that's not to say that they don't play TDs, or even in some cases super heavies (missions and boredom happens)

 

Which is why Russian and the good Chinese copies are at the top of the various lists.  Speed, armor, low profile, and big punch w/ great soft stats (that completely negate the comical aim time).

 

View PostAvalon304, on Oct 21 2019 - 22:51, said:

If you want to pad WN8 one of the better ways to do it is to play a TD and just farm lots of damage. Its an easy way to high WN8 numbers (though usually at the expense of Win Rate). (And actually if you really want to pad WN8 you just play light tanks, because their expected values for damage are usually low).

 

In short, camping with a big alpha gun = wn8 but it does absolutely nothing for win rate.  That is why all of the turds sit in the back, having no influence on the game only to whine, at the end, as to why their teammates evaporated.  TD players, for the most part, don't understand that they can both gain wn8 and do massive damage while being in the game.  But, that is a different discussion entirely.


Edited by Trauglodyte, Oct 22 2019 - 17:40.


DS_AS #24 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 16:41

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Edited by DS_AS, Oct 22 2019 - 16:41.


InfinityGamer #25 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 16:45

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View PostPanzerXO, on Oct 21 2019 - 12:38, said:

Way back in the way back... this game used to be (seemed at least to be) dominated by Mediums.  And it was fun.

Then it went Super Heavy focused and got more campy / brawly

I haven't noticed that. I play mediums now more than ever and they're still the top pick for most good players as far as I'm aware. I play mediums specifically because I hate camping, I enjoy playing very aggressively. Granted, there are some maps where you can't push anywhere and are forced to just wait cough Airfield cough, but with most maps I find there are always opportunities. In my opinion arty is generally what causes the massive camp fests, nobody wants to be spotted when there's three arty waiting to take a dump on you.



Trauglodyte #26 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 17:46

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View PostInfinityGamer, on Oct 22 2019 - 16:45, said:

I haven't noticed that. I play mediums now more than ever and they're still the top pick for most good players as far as I'm aware. I play mediums specifically because I hate camping, I enjoy playing very aggressively. Granted, there are some maps where you can't push anywhere and are forced to just wait cough Airfield cough, but with most maps I find there are always opportunities. In my opinion arty is generally what causes the massive camp fests, nobody wants to be spotted when there's three arty waiting to take a dump on you.

 

You know, I've often wondered if the game would be different if "vision" was more powerful.  Not from the stand point of vision range but if, and I know this is totally shocking, Light Tanks had a better means of cutting through the massive blocker that is "unseen" tanks.  As it stands, camo is more powerful than vision.  So, on maps like Prok, Mal, and Muro (essentially anything that is super bushy), you're hesitant to push because you know that, in the 3 seconds it takes for your 6th Sense to pop, the opposing team has turned, aimed, and either has or is in the state of about to pull the trigger.  On the flip side of that, even if that was an aspect of the game, the sheer low numbers of smart Light drivers would make it seem like it didn't exist anyway.  I just really think that the threat of the unknown is what really hurts this game.

 

Plus, to add to that, when draw range makes up more than 50% of the width of a map, it makes the lurking TD aspect of the game put the breaks on general movement.  It is really sad, given that Mediums were routinely designed to be a QRF/flanking asset.  Yet, between small map sizes and general map layouts, that doesn't work which puts us in a state where Mediums are pressing the #2 key and circumventing heavy/super heavy armor (different topic but partially relevant).



PanzerXO #27 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 18:07

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Oct 22 2019 - 11:46, said:

 

You know, I've often wondered if the game would be different if "vision" was more powerful.  Not from the stand point of vision range but if, and I know this is totally shocking, Light Tanks had a better means of cutting through the massive blocker that is "unseen" tanks.  As it stands, camo is more powerful than vision.  So, on maps like Prok, Mal, and Muro (essentially anything that is super bushy), you're hesitant to push because you know that, in the 3 seconds it takes for your 6th Sense to pop, the opposing team has turned, aimed, and either has or is in the state of about to pull the trigger.  On the flip side of that, even if that was an aspect of the game, the sheer low numbers of smart Light drivers would make it seem like it didn't exist anyway.  I just really think that the threat of the unknown is what really hurts this game.

 

Plus, to add to that, when draw range makes up more than 50% of the width of a map, it makes the lurking TD aspect of the game put the breaks on general movement.  It is really sad, given that Mediums were routinely designed to be a QRF/flanking asset.  Yet, between small map sizes and general map layouts, that doesn't work which puts us in a state where Mediums are pressing the #2 key and circumventing heavy/super heavy armor (different topic but partially relevant).


Agree - but they won't 'fix' camo; its one of the ways they make RU tanks overperform (c.f. 4Tankers' video comparing the T-100LT to the RHM).  It's been long known (dating back to the first 3 nations) that the "Short view range but good camo" of the RUMeds = "They can't see you until you can see them"



goldfinger_555 #28 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 18:14

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Yet another tread where stats are having too much influence on the game. They should be seen only by the player and who he wants to see them such as a Clan leader from a new clan that you'd like to join or friends.

GAJohnnie #29 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 18:18

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View PostGuido1212, on Oct 21 2019 - 06:50, said:

It's been a slow creeping paralysis that's extremely noticeable now.  At least on NA, I have no idea how the other servers play.  There are several factors at play IMO.

 

1.  The 2 key.  Knowing that most people will simply pres 2 to get a wildly higher pen value discourages heavily armored tanks from making bold plays.  Or even medium armored tanks from trying the get up and sidescrape or use that "strong" turret.  It's hard to risk manage with that game mechanic so most people manage it by not taking any.

 

2.  Artillery.  This has always discouraged aggressive play.  Sure it can dig out campers and corner/strong point holders, but that is typically after it has hammered any one with the temerity to show an aggressive play of any kind.  Because it is not threatened (ever really, until the end) in the game, it then has the leisure to take out the campers and strong point holders.  People hide from it.

 

3.  TD infestation.  As noted above it's very common to have a team made up of 1/2 TDs, often with very high alpha (and the above mentioned 2 key to add insult to injury).  This discourages most aggressive moves.  A good mobile force can out maneuver TDs pretty easily, but that is rare in pubs.  so the "mediums counter TDS" expectation by the devs is fine in theory but very limited in practice.

 

4.  Wheeled tanks.  Combined with point 5 below, these have had the opposite effect of opening up game play.  They have opened up game play for that particular tank type, but the rest have to find longer routes or hide when they are zipping around and surviving for much much longer than that kind of play should survive.  It's effective game play and some tracked lights used to be able to do a similar thing years ago, but it was recently death until the wheeled tanks showed up and threw out one of the most basic and important game mechanics, being tracked.  Add the ridiculous moving accuracy and (illegal for every other tank) auto aim and you have one of the worst game altering additions to the game in the last 3 years.

 

5.  Map design.  There's a lot of issues here, but the camping and hiding is exacerbated by the mighty wheeled tanks spotting people (and standard lights as well) just trying to get to position and exposing them to fire from map positions that allow obliteration from minute 1.  So people take longer safer routes and tend to stay back.  It doesn't take too long to learn that going near the lake on lakeville for example is insta death or at lest half your HP gone from what are essentially campers.  So people adjust, go the long way or just camp themselves/start playing the same TDs that keep whacking them looking to do the same thing.  Several maps have been changed with assassin lines consisting of bushes and places to snipe the enemy team immediately after spawn.  Nearly every map has TD camping nests at the very back.  Guess what, they get used, a lot.

 

My two cents.  For me the fix starts with fixing the 2 key issue.  But it's not damage that needs changed, the pen value of gold needs to be much less so the balance of armor to pen is easier to manage.

 

Cheers,

 

Guido

One point I think you can add, the concept of too much empty damage.

 I think Gudio you are the one who taught me the concept of "empty damage". More players need to focus on winning and less on just racking up some big damage numbers. 



2MOEJOE #30 Posted Oct 22 2019 - 18:28

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It does seem there is an uptick in camping by mediums but I’m not in that club I can’t sit still it’s just not in me.I have noticed quite a bit of newer players in high tier games so they probably don’t even know what there doing at least that’s what I observed this past weekend.




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