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Good wn8 bad win rate


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Arturius666 #1 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 05:44

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Had one of those days today that's really interesting from a stat point of view. Played 35 games and won 12, at one point I was even at 9 wins for 31 games so I basically pulled 3 wins out of the bag in my last 4 games and then I logged out in disgust.

 

Anyways the interesting part is that despite having a far worse win rate than a afk player or bot, I actually had arguably my best session ever in terms of damage per game, averaging around 1300, compared to my usual 1000 and my global like 650. So 1300 per game over 35 games is really a monster session for me, especially since I was chasing daily x2's with some dodgy semi stock tanks like t28 prot and udes 16. 

 

But yet I had the worst win rate session maybe that I've ever had. Feels a bit futile that good performance didn't equate to winning but I know its just loss streaks. My win rate sank from 51.13 to 51.07 in 35 games lol. Brutal.

 

What's the worst loss session you've ever had with paradoxically good personal performance? 



_Major_Tomato #2 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 05:49

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I know I've had sessions with WR less than 40% and Wn8 over 2000.  You can't always control WR; you have more control over Wn8

Markd73 #3 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 06:01

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View PostArturius666, on Nov 15 2019 - 04:44, said:

Had one of those days today that's really interesting from a stat point of view. Played 35 games and won 12, at one point I was even at 9 wins for 31 games so I basically pulled 3 wins out of the bag in my last 4 games and then I logged out in disgust.

 

Anyways the interesting part is that despite having a far worse win rate than a afk player or bot, I actually had arguably my best session ever in terms of damage per game, averaging around 1300, compared to my usual 1000 and my global like 650. So 1300 per game over 35 games is really a monster session for me, especially since I was chasing daily x2's with some dodgy semi stock tanks like t28 prot and udes 16. 

 

But yet I had the worst win rate session maybe that I've ever had. Feels a bit futile that good performance didn't equate to winning but I know its just loss streaks. My win rate sank from 51.13 to 51.07 in 35 games lol. Brutal.

 

What's the worst loss session you've ever had with paradoxically good personal performance? 

 

Congrats on your damage rates.

 

I always worry that I'm just farming useless damage at the end of my battles when I have high damage but low rates.



BlackFive #4 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 06:21

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That's UnPossible!

 

You can't do well and lose... Unless you Chai Snipe!



Arturius666 #5 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 06:25

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View PostBlackFive, on Nov 15 2019 - 05:21, said:

That's UnPossible!

 

You can't do well and lose... Unless you Chai Snipe!

Yeah its bizarre for sure. I even averaged 1500 damage per game in my s51 arty in like 6 games where I only won once. Normally I'm happy to get 1500 damage in a win in that spg.



BlackFive #6 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 06:30

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View PostArturius666, on Nov 15 2019 - 06:25, said:

Yeah its bizarre for sure. I even averaged 1500 damage per game in my s51 arty in like 6 games where I only won once. Normally I'm happy to get 1500 damage in a win in that spg.


Okay - You cannot count Arty.

 

Any game where you are in a fully support role is one where you cannot control the W/R

 

you need to play Meds - where you can set the pace; and control your W/R



Arturius666 #7 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 08:24

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View PostBlackFive, on Nov 15 2019 - 05:30, said:


Okay - You cannot count Arty.

 

Any game where you are in a fully support role is one where you cannot control the W/R

 

you need to play Meds - where you can set the pace; and control your W/R

Yeah I think you're right. I'm even starting to take playing light tanks seriously lately for first time and I can see the attraction. Can also see why people say lights are the hardest to play.  



da_Rock002 #8 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 17:24

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"where you can control your W/R"     :(

 

 

That is a fantasy.

 

6 battles where my "control" averaged deep purple.   

and the W/R ???     zero

The first 3 were battles to grind the Polish 7TR.

The next 3 were to try and make up for those outcomes.   



_mlg_taco_fire_ #9 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 18:21

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its cuz of MM and steamrolls rn

 

when u win teams just steam roll over enemies, which leads to an equal ish distribution of damage 

 

whereas when u lose, u can sort of farm enemies until they steam roll over you



coconut2011 #10 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 18:23

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If you are driving slow tanks, oftentimes, you will get far better WN8 on losses, provided you find ways to survive longer.  On fast wins, you could actually have low WN8 due to the fact your tank is just not moving fast enough to be able to dish out damages.



Tolos #11 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 19:03

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 15 2019 - 16:24, said:

"where you can control your W/R"     :(

 

 

That is a fantasy.

 

6 battles where my "control" averaged deep purple.   

and the W/R ???     zero

The first 3 were battles to grind the Polish 7TR.

The next 3 were to try and make up for those outcomes.   

 

No the myth is you can't control your WR. 

 

Players like you who are AVERAGE play AVERAGE over the course of a number of battles. Yes you will have great games, but then you will have just as many poor games. It's REALLY not hard to understand. 



Trauglodyte #12 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 19:08

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View PostArturius666, on Nov 15 2019 - 05:44, said:

Had one of those days today that's really interesting from a stat point of view. Played 35 games and won 12, at one point I was even at 9 wins for 31 games so I basically pulled 3 wins out of the bag in my last 4 games and then I logged out in disgust.

 

Anyways the interesting part is that despite having a far worse win rate than a afk player or bot, I actually had arguably my best session ever in terms of damage per game, averaging around 1300, compared to my usual 1000 and my global like 650. So 1300 per game over 35 games is really a monster session for me, especially since I was chasing daily x2's with some dodgy semi stock tanks like t28 prot and udes 16. 

 

But yet I had the worst win rate session maybe that I've ever had. Feels a bit futile that good performance didn't equate to winning but I know its just loss streaks. My win rate sank from 51.13 to 51.07 in 35 games lol. Brutal.

 

What's the worst loss session you've ever had with paradoxically good personal performance? 

 

There is one reason, and one reason only, as to why this is happening.  Doing damage = wn8.  BUT, doing damage and not doing so in a manner that increases your odds of winning is empty wn8.  In other words, you're doing well in a category that doesn't matter.  While you might not be consciously and purposely mooching damage, that is essentially what you're doing.  So, be more active in the important aspects of the game and stop hanging back.  Doing so will give you the ability to positively influence the game AND it'll help you maintain your wn8 (or, at the very least, teach you how to survive longer, thus allowing you to maintain/improve your wn8).

 

EDIT:  To make it simpler, if you're not able to spot your target, on your own, without the help of your teammates, you're sitting too far back in every tank that isn't an SPG.  Fix that and everything changes, for the better.


Edited by Trauglodyte, Nov 15 2019 - 19:08.


ethics_gradient #13 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 19:33

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I've had days where I average 2k WN8 and 25% or lower WR.  Drives me nuts.  As long as it's not a long term thing.  I've seen players with high WN8's and low wr, and it tells me taht the player is doing something consistently wrong.

Arturius666 #14 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 20:11

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Nov 15 2019 - 18:08, said:

 

There is one reason, and one reason only, as to why this is happening.  Doing damage = wn8.  BUT, doing damage and not doing so in a manner that increases your odds of winning is empty wn8.  In other words, you're doing well in a category that doesn't matter.  While you might not be consciously and purposely mooching damage, that is essentially what you're doing.  So, be more active in the important aspects of the game and stop hanging back.  Doing so will give you the ability to positively influence the game AND it'll help you maintain your wn8 (or, at the very least, teach you how to survive longer, thus allowing you to maintain/improve your wn8).

 

EDIT:  To make it simpler, if you're not able to spot your target, on your own, without the help of your teammates, you're sitting too far back in every tank that isn't an SPG.  Fix that and everything changes, for the better.

I can see how you'd think that is what's going on and I suppose you could be right, but that's not how I interpret the results.

 

Even in most of my 12 wins I was doing way more damage than normal. 3k damage and 4 kills in totally stock standard B on Westfield for instance is a really good game for me. I know it's not for a lot of other people but I'm just comparing with myself. In order for me to average 1300 damage per game I was doing really well in my wins because some of my losses were terrible rotflstomps where I only did 600. I had some really close clutch losses where I just couldn't carry like I had a monster game on sand river in my t28prot where I was definitely up front spotting my kills but just couldn't pull it out of the bag. I was definitely in the right place making the right plays though, compared to how I would have played say 3 months ago. Hell I was in a stock t28 prot too, except I had the middle gun unlocked. Stock tracks and engine etc so its sluggish as heck.  Same with Udes 16. Stock tank and I had some good games but we still lost. 3k damage on el halluf and I was in the A1 area hull down but they rushed us and although I read the push and relocated back a ways we still lost. 

 

I'd say the only tank I played yesterday where I wasn't happy at all with my performance was the Pershing. I am really struggling with that tank, something about it isn't working for me for some reason.  Got a decent crew and its fully upgraded but I can't figure that tank out. It's not a great sniper due to gun handling and pen but it has good view range. It's not a brawler, and it's not a particularly agile flanker. I think I won with it finally in a 600 damage game yesterday which is kinda sad. 

 

Anyways either way yesterday destroyed my win rate for the next while. I really respect anyone that can average like 55 or 60% through the bad streaks! That means on their good days they are doing 65 or 70% right?

 

 

 



Trauglodyte #15 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 20:53

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View PostArturius666, on Nov 15 2019 - 20:11, said:

I can see how you'd think that is what's going on and I suppose you could be right, but that's not how I interpret the results.

 

<snip>

 

 

Well, I would disregard performance numbers, from auto-loaders/auto-reloaders, simply because the general nature of how they work will dramatically inflate their numbers.  If an AL/ARL isn't doing 2-3x their health, they're not carrying their weight.

 

Moving beyond that, my point wasn't pertaining to the damage you're doing but more having you think about what damage you're doing, when you're doing it, and the overall value of that damage.  Part of the reason why I mentioned range is that, if you're sitting in the back (not saying that you are), you're going to be further down the aggro list, for the opponents.  Because of that, you'll generally have more health, which your friendlies won't have, which means that you're not sharing health and, as a result, indirectly causing teammates to die.  That, in turn, increases your odds of losing games.

 

Taking the above a bit further, one of the ways to win more games is to know where to be, when to be there, and why.  At 9k games, chances are high that you're not yet at the level of being able to analyze team make-up and read the flow of battle, to the point of moving to weak spots that haven't yet shown themselves to be weak spots.  Looking at your stats, the bulk of your games at tier 5-7.  So, you're naturally going to get a higher wn8, because alpha-to-health ratios are in favor of damage output.  Furthermore, the result of playing lower tiers is that you're dealing with a lot of players that don't know anything and end up dying quickly because of it.  The ONLY tanks, which actually fit your original post, are the StuG III G (81 games played; 44% win rate, 1629 wn8) and the Dicker Max (148 games played; 48% win rate, 1625 wn8).  As noted above, both of these tanks fit the "sit further back and snipe" model of game play which results in high wn8 scores but, because of the lack of direct impact, leads to lower win rates.

 

In short, at only 9k games, there is still a lot of learning to be done.  On top of that, you've chosen to play mostly German tanks which carries the albatross of poorer-than-normal win rate scores.  Focus less on damage and more on being in positions to help teammates in meaningful ways.  That could be assisting in kills or mitigating moron plays.  Just realize that not all tanks, within a class and tier, play the same.  German tanks, for example, swing wildly in how they're played.  That goes beyond dealing with map impact and tier differentiation.



BlackFive #16 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 21:07

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 15 2019 - 17:24, said:

"where you can control your W/R"     :(

 

 

That is a fantasy.

 

6 battles where my "control" averaged deep purple.   

and the W/R ???     zero

The first 3 were battles to grind the Polish 7TR.

The next 3 were to try and make up for those outcomes.   


I have to LOL at people who say "W/R is out of your control" - because (otherwise) for over tens of thousands of games I've been getting better than average teams, resulting in a positive w/r.  And that, friend, just isn't possible.

 

You may, at times, spawn a team that can't figure out what the W key does or how to effectively left click on the Red Tanks... but over time... it's all you, baby



da_Rock002 #17 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 21:34

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View PostTolos, on Nov 15 2019 - 13:03, said:

 

No the myth is you can't control your WR. 

 

Players like you who are AVERAGE play AVERAGE over the course of a number of battles. Yes you will have great games, but then you will have just as many poor games. It's REALLY not hard to understand. 


Whatever the myth might be, everyone can influence WR.   The truth is that WR is based on getting either a 1 or a 0 out of each battle, and either of those is averaged into you personal WR.   The truth is that 15 players on one team compete against 15 players on the other team.   Now, one player can influence the outcome, but very, very seldom is one out of 30 influence enough to decide any single battle.   Truth is, not one of 30 controls the outcome with whatever influence they exert.   

 

So if someone wanted to sort myths into different stacks,  your myth would be sorted into the pile that includes the myth the earth was flat.



da_Rock002 #18 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 21:38

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View PostBlackFive, on Nov 15 2019 - 15:07, said:


I have to LOL at people who say "W/R is out of your control" - because (otherwise) for over tens of thousands of games I've been getting better than average teams, resulting in a positive w/r.  And that, friend, just isn't possible.

 

You may, at times, spawn a team that can't figure out what the W key does or how to effectively left click on the Red Tanks... but over time... it's all you, baby

 

Over time it's all who?

 

Someone who doesn't understand the difference between 'control' and 'influence' probably would LOL at Einstein, or Edison, or Pavlov.    yeah....   



dunniteowl #19 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 21:45

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I had a day where I played like 34 matches.  I had a 28% WR.  I had 4 Zero Damage games where I got exed out before I could get to position or before I was able to respond appropriately.  That day was a day of mostly the JgPzI V, AT-2, some Leopard (T5 LT DE), a couple runs in my T1 Heavy as well as a few rounds of my Pz Ausf III and the rest were SPGs (either T5 UK Bishop or T5 DE Grille).

 

Beyond those 4 zero damage games, I placed anywhere from 5th to 1st place in damage and also was usually the one with the most kills.

 

Can you say, "Bad day?"  Sure.  I knew you could.  My overall numbers were quite good with the notable exception of the zero damage games.  I am not going to say it was bad teams.  I'm pretty sure that most of the time I realized that I just kept picking the wrong opening position for best results.  In this I mean, that, every time I planned on doing X, my team made doing Y more productive -- but I wasn't picking up on that until I was already too far into plan X.

 

Some days that's just going to happen.  You're out of synch with plans and position, however your ability to deal out damage and stay alive longer than most of those on your team seems just fine.  I wouldn't expect anyone to suddenly get a clue when this is going on -- it's already going on for a reason and that reason is that you're out of synch in some manner with the maps and your teams.

 

When that happens, I do my best to just get my self back into a frame of mind that says, PAY MORE ATTENTION to the Opening Moves of your Team.

 

I think that day was a lesson in not planning too far ahead while your team is still piddling about deciding whether or not they're going to Lemming, Camp or go full HAM-Stupidity on an Open Map.

 

I never saw a game on Steppes with no-one going to defend the center road until that day.  I saw at least 8 matches with Lemming Train stamped on them right away.  I saw a game on Erlenberg with NO-ONE, not one person, going to the west side of the map to defend the base in an Assault mode.  Until that day.

 

Yes, bad teams are a thing, but you can't lay the blame on them if you aren't willing to accept at least 1/15th of that.  There are going to be times when nothing you can do is going to change the outcome, however most times, it is from being out of position.  So my bad day was me being out of position relative to my team and not being able to see it for what it was.

 

 

Hang in there, man!

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



da_Rock002 #20 Posted Nov 15 2019 - 21:56

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You know, it is lol for sure.

 

The attachment I posted shows a clear example of one person's CONTRABUTION in an entire session's battles where the efforts were the most influential in every one of those battles.   The attachment also shows that in every one of those battles, that one person did not CONTROL the outcome in spite of that effort being greater than almost every single enemy player in fact.  

 

It appears that since every battle was won by the Enemy team, that someone on the enemy teams was obviously CONTROLLING the WRs of everyone.   That's one person controlling the WRs of 180 people.      Now that is a lol....     






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