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Thought newbs stay low tiers vets higher tiers - nope all one sided


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1ST_AD_Abrams #1 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 19:37

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Well this morning I decided to start on a tier 1 -> 2 -> 3 route for the on track mission Objective 705 (I think).

 

Now what I have heard from those active here and those in the game, go learn how to play the game, play down in the t1-3 levels.

 

The problem is, we can't learn.  In probably the 3 hours of playing in the supposed tiers to learn, I saw games where a few players were steam rolling over newbs and I am not talking 1v1 I am talking 5 newbs v 1 enemy.  The 1 enemy just destroy all 5 tanks like they were put a check mark in a list.

 

So I wondered how could there be that many gifted new players in the game.  For my measure of "newb" I consider around 8500 battles you might be able to step up and be Newb on the Rise, I don't know what the players consider a "vet" in terms of battles or some other stat?

 

Well the ones scoring top guns, base caps, 2 or more kills, most of them were 13K or more battles under their belt.  What really shocked me was as I started to look at the player records on both teams I found anywhere from 3-5 of players on both teams and also at the top of the scoreboard usually, had 50K, yes that is K as in 10's of thousands battles.  50,000 battles.

 

I know I am a not exactly the most liked if at all person in this game or the forums, but when those in the forums and in game say we should learn at lower tiers 1-3 before stepping up to iv, v, vi, vii, viii so we don't ruin those higher tier battles with our lack of experience. 

 

However this is more like egg in our face.  Now first let me say there are many players I have come to respect and watch their performances in the higher tiers to learn, even if they are disgusted with me.  So the comments doesn't apply to all vets.  One has to wonder (or make it a witch hunt - sorry couldn't help myself or a conspiracy) to coral newer players in the lower tiers so those with premium t1-3 tanks or highly skilled crews and/or skilled players themselves, can have an all you can eat crab feed.

 

Almost makes the Anon system as a way to escape being noticed in the near future.  For now we can (I don't remember if the Anon system will make it impossible to view stats even at the end of the match, I think it said it can be seen after the game ends) match performance to experience via service records.

 

In some ways we should list these players of such goodwill who happily polish their shells to use against newer players who are told learn low before playing high, as we ruin the games for those individuals who are also hanging out in the tier 1-3, or even 4, and using a tank that doesn't not match the current on track missions at that time.  Now maybe things are lopsided at the higher tiers (yes I also still play there and seeing battles where they end with one side managing only 1 kill, occuring over and over in battles, till dying just becomes the norm and you lose that drive to want to win the match to how much longer before they kill me (I hope you are understanding my meaning.  I am not saying just sit where you spawned until you are killed, but trying to put a defense as 5 heavies roll down on you and knowing you don't have a chance at all, so you aim and fire until you die and see that 3,4,5,6 different enemy tanks were attacking you.).  

 

It is not just the Pay to Win (yes the player still has to have the skill to use that premium tank) but the multiple people telling players go here, attack that, defend this, etc., and those who are willing to put real money into the game and buy credits/gold so they can use those nice premium rounds on those who aren't willing to bank roll their experience (please note again, I am not talking about all players who purchase "virtual" items for the game, as many want to support what WG is providing in its games and to hopefully keep the servers up and new content pouring in.  Yes I am in a way a leech as I don't show the devs the love with real cash, however I just don't like to "pay" for a good that is not something I can use again and again and not dependent on when the dev/pub flips the off switch, to pay for a tank that lets say in 5 years will just be a charge on your credit card as the game is no longer being offered.  Yes I can throw cash at the game, so I am not someone who is a kid or needs to get a job, just as I am not one of those who worry if my computer lights up in 16.8 million different colors, individually threaded cable covers inside the machine and changing to cars here, worry about spoilers, racing wheel covers (sorry can't think of the part atm), tinted windows and glowing engines or whatever.  I see the trade off as in I can get more and better rather than look fancy and glowing, like a better gpu or cpu or memory and so on.

 

Sorry got sidetracked but just saying I had to vent this as it appears not even at the lower tiers are players really allowed to learn to play, just how to click around to watch other players who are still alive and they look up and see the kills 2 vs 15, 1 vs 14/15 and so on and inflate stats for those who are living or dying with their stats as those sole means of showing they are the greatest in the game.  If this was an e-sport game, fine I can see that then but usually most games have players play on a special server reserved for those who are living and dying by their stats.

 

One last comment, I have wondered of resurrecting an idea at the start of PvP games.  It was once called ECA, where you put down all your screen names in online games and if you are caught cheating and proof is shown to substantiate such claim they make it easy for clans and players to know who is up to no good.  Why not have it where Vets for example agree to avoid the lower tiers and newer players agree despite the tier 8 rentals from Twitch Prime we will not move up till we can stand on our own and prove we are a good player (not the best) and know how to use our tanks.  That was just an example but I hope you understand the meaning of the idea.

 

Anyhow, done venting, now going back to see how many more times I can see players with 50K plus battles earn top gun, high caliber, and other awards at newer players expense.  We don't need all the things talked about as something to give to new players but instead a way that we can stand up against vets at our level.  Perhaps even doing a system where you take experience and somehow handicap or boost to make matches even.  Of course I would have no clue if it would work in this game. 



dave_292 #2 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 19:46

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 You just noticed this after 4k battles. I figured it out at about 100. That's why most free XP to T5.

_Tsavo_ #3 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 19:49

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The low tier experience is horrid.  Unbalanced.  New players get put into the same low tier pool as the dedicated clubbers.  There used to be a low tier pool, but after so much time it'd dump the newbie into the regular pool to be eaten. 

 

Unfortunately, not much can be done right now to stop clubbing.  Though I've seen incentive ideas such as 1 or no equipment slots and 1 or no skills active and no gold shells.   

 

I dunno, but the only thing we can chuckle at is, for the most part, those dedicated low tier clubbers are low tier clubbers because they are the seals at tiers 8+. 


Edited by _Tsavo_, Nov 22 2019 - 22:08.


death_stryker #4 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 20:25

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Those who tell you to stay at tiers 1-3 to "learn" are completely wrong. There is nothing to learn down there, and as you said the clubbers will get you. The lowest tier at which you might learn anything at all is tier 5, which is, as far as I know, the tier most reliable sources advise new players to play at. Personally I would say tiers 5 or 6 are fine, and definitely not below 4.

 

Regarding the clubbers, there really isn't much that can be done about them with WG at the helm, so all I can say is to take being clubbed as a sort of learning experience, as in take a look at what the clubber is doing right, regardless of their tank or loadout, and try to emulate it in your own play. At tiers 5+ you will also begin to encounter actual good players, which will give you better opportunities to truly learn.



HOTA_CHATON #5 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 21:36

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Nov 22 2019 - 12:49, said:

The love tier experience is horrid.  Unbalanced.  New players get put into the same low tier pool as the dedicated clubbers.  There used to be a low tier pool, but after so much time it'd dump the newbie into the regular pool to be eaten. 

 

Unfortunately, not much can be done right now to stop clubbing.  Though I've seen incentive ideas such as 1 or no equipment slots and 1 or no skills active and no gold shells.   

 

I dunno, but the only thing we can chuckle at is, for the most part, those dedicated low tier clubbers are low tier clubbers because they are the seals at tiers 8+. 


I don't chuckle at this as it hurts the influx of new players, to this game, severely.  They need to held to a higher standard and failure means they loose their accounts. I know they can get new ones but this still needs to be done as it will get expensive enough and eventually either cause them to move on or quite the game and make things better.



xrays_ #6 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 22:05

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Nov 22 2019 - 13:49, said:

The love tier experience is horrid.  Unbalanced.

 

The "Love" Tier? :-)

 

x.



cloudwalkr #7 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 22:13

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I agree with the overall sentiment of "play the tiers you want to be good at".  

 

There is a drastic difference in not just skill level but overall game play when you hit the higher tiers that lower tiers just do not help teach in any way.  The ones that yell "go back to lower tiers" are more often than not being trolls.

 

I personally didn't start to genuinely improve until I hit tier 8 where armor could actually be used.  My overall advice is to just grind your tanks at your own speed.  Move up when you want to.  The only major thing you need to work on at low tiers are the basics -- Always use cover.  Always use bush mechanics.  Try to never go alone and spend a good amount of energy really learning the maps.  Not just "oh, yeah I know that map"...but like if I ask about the H/0 square on X map then you know what I'm talking about.  That takes some time.

 

As for the money, I am with you and do not spend or usually advertise others spend money on this game. It's blatant pay2win now with no real signs of changing.  With that said, dropping $50 isn't the end of the world and will help you out.  Look at it like a nice night out at the movies with a loved one.  It's genuinely difficult for me to say this but pick up a good premium, or 2, in the tank lines you play the most.  Make sure they are tier 8 for Front Lines.  Don't listen to the ones crying "go back to low tiers" and then most importantly, get with Boghie, cocobabygirl or a few others that come to my Tuesday sessions and come join us.  I can help you out with a lot of this stuff.



_Tsavo_ #8 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 22:15

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View Postxrays_, on Nov 22 2019 - 16:05, said:

 

The "Love" Tier? :-)

 

x.

Hurp derp, words are hard, fix'd



xrays_ #9 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 22:18

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Nov 22 2019 - 16:15, said:

Hurp derp, words are hard, fix'd

 

D'oh... And here I thought I had missed a whole Tier of tanks that played Barry White out of the loudspeakers.

 

x.

 



MiddleAgedNoob #10 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 22:22

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If it is any consolation, and it probably isn't, it isn't just the brand new newcomers that get clubbed.  i probably don't qualify as a newcomer any more, although I am still not particularly good, and I get slaughtered by the seal clubbers when I drop down to those tiers to grind new lines.  Even though I have some idea about what I am doing, I can't compete, in a stock tank and new crew, with the 5 skill crews, full gold load out, and the 20k games played in the same OP or borderline OP tank on the same 4 or 5 maps, especially against clubbing platoons.  I just grit my teeth, complete the grind and get out of there as fast as I can.

 

I too wish WG would do something about it, as I think it drives new players away..  There have been a lot of ideas floated - skill limits, gold limits, equipment limits (I've proposed ever increasing queue times for habitual clubbers) - but nothing is being done about it.  The best advice, unfortunately, is to get to tier IV or V, where the clubbers are fewer in number (although not completely gone, not by any means).

 

GLHF



the_dude_76 #11 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 23:03

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As long as people can earn 10-15k crew exp in a 3-4 minute battle playing their low tier premium tanks, tanks they were given by WG, you are going to see skilled players in the low tiers. Not everyone you see there is a dedicated seal clubber. WG provides tons of incentive for more skilled players to spend some time in lower tiers so they must not be too concerned about the problem.

Rawrlynn #12 Posted Nov 22 2019 - 23:18

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every PvP style game has the issue of really good/over equiped players hounding low tiers. (I know I have done it on occasion) the main difference between me and those clubbers is I only do it for maybe an hour and then go back to higher tiers where I actually have fun. 

 

I've seen players with over 50K battles 45K in same tank and they are just as bad as some random guy that has never played this game ever. 

tiers 4-6 are the best learning tiers, tiers 1-3 are just run and gun shooting fests.   tiers 7-8 are great credit grinders tiers 9-10 is where most of the MM hating lopsided battles of blow outs lies. 



dunniteowl #13 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 00:58

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I have addressed this -- even with the OP -- in detail several times.

 

There really are only two things you can do about it:

 

Move out of those tiers and only visit when you are grinding a new line

         and

Do your best to improve your play at ANY tier by knowing the game mechanics as those mechanics are the same from tier I to tier X.

 

That's about all you can do about it.

 

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da_Rock002 #14 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 12:36

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BTW, for those experienced players who've posted about how the lower tiers work...……….

 

A few weeks back I decided to actually grind a line and see what it's like.  And also figured to improve my one Polish crew while I was at it.   That led to somewhat of a shocking discovery.   The low tiers are DIFFERENT nowadays !      WGNA solved the lack of new players problems by creating a MM that spits out bot-filled teams to accommodate the very few new players showing up in Tier1-Tier5 queues.    And seems to be playing around with it.

 

The first weeks, every match in my new 7TP had 7 player teams, with one human on each team.   The bots were really simple.   They would go somewhere and either get trapped in a ravine or somesuch and then basically drive around in circles.   The real eyeopener however was how often the player on the other team was actually a newbie.   Only seeing one human at a time doesn't really make for a significant sample if you're interested in knowing how many newbs there are versus how many seal clubbers or players starting grinds.     At first it seemed there were more clubbers...  then there were more newbs....   and the other day things changed.    They changed a lot.

 

The battles usually took more time than I thought 14 player battles would take especially with 12 bots (somewhat mindless ones especially) wandering about.   It was mostly because the bots didn't notice things like even newbies would.   They just hung out about halfway across the map mostly.     None of them seemed to be looking for anything.     It certainly wasn't a great learning experience for newbies, and nothing like battling even a team of newbies, much less a team of newbies with a seal clubber in it.    but recently that changed.

 

One battle I noticed one of the bots just happened to stand out.    An allied bot had stumbled into the enemy CAP and I noticed one of the enemy bots turn around and bee line toward that CAP.    So next battle I paid better attention and noticed another "smarter" bot.    There was sort of a "dawning" from then on.   It could be that WG has decided to smarten up some bots.   The last week certainly looks like it.     WG could be doing something good for seals.    A seal with 6 somewhat useful bots stands a better chance of learning something (by getting the time to learn it) against a clubber who has to pay attention to the bots instead of flooring his T2 Light and heading for the seal right off.    

 

anyway.….   at least TierII is a lot different than it was 3 years ago.     Advice to newbies needs some updating about the bottom tiers.   


Edited by da_Rock002, Nov 23 2019 - 12:41.


Badkarma #15 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 15:22

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View Post_Tsavo_, on Nov 22 2019 - 19:49, said:

The low tier experience is horrid.  Unbalanced.  New players get put into the same low tier pool as the dedicated clubbers.  There used to be a low tier pool, but after so much time it'd dump the newbie into the regular pool to be eaten. 

 

Unfortunately, not much can be done right now to stop clubbing.  Though I've seen incentive ideas such as 1 or no equipment slots and 1 or no skills active and no gold shells.   

 

I dunno, but the only thing we can chuckle at is, for the most part, those dedicated low tier clubbers are low tier clubbers because they are the seals at tiers 8+. 

And with the anonymizer we won't be able to tell who the clubbers are as easily.



dunniteowl #16 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 15:32

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 23 2019 - 05:36, said:

BTW, for those experienced players who've posted about how the lower tiers work...……….

 

A few weeks back I decided to actually grind a line and see what it's like.  And also figured to improve my one Polish crew while I was at it.   That led to somewhat of a shocking discovery.   The low tiers are DIFFERENT nowadays !      WGNA solved the lack of new players problems by creating a MM that spits out bot-filled teams to accommodate the very few new players showing up in Tier1-Tier5 queues.    And seems to be playing around with it.

 

The first weeks, every match in my new 7TP had 7 player teams, with one human on each team.   The bots were really simple.   They would go somewhere and either get trapped in a ravine or somesuch and then basically drive around in circles.   The real eyeopener however was how often the player on the other team was actually a newbie.   Only seeing one human at a time doesn't really make for a significant sample if you're interested in knowing how many newbs there are versus how many seal clubbers or players starting grinds.     At first it seemed there were more clubbers...  then there were more newbs....   and the other day things changed.    They changed a lot.

 

The battles usually took more time than I thought 14 player battles would take especially with 12 bots (somewhat mindless ones especially) wandering about.   It was mostly because the bots didn't notice things like even newbies would.   They just hung out about halfway across the map mostly.     None of them seemed to be looking for anything.     It certainly wasn't a great learning experience for newbies, and nothing like battling even a team of newbies, much less a team of newbies with a seal clubber in it.    but recently that changed.

 

One battle I noticed one of the bots just happened to stand out.    An allied bot had stumbled into the enemy CAP and I noticed one of the enemy bots turn around and bee line toward that CAP.    So next battle I paid better attention and noticed another "smarter" bot.    There was sort of a "dawning" from then on.   It could be that WG has decided to smarten up some bots.   The last week certainly looks like it.     WG could be doing something good for seals.    A seal with 6 somewhat useful bots stands a better chance of learning something (by getting the time to learn it) against a clubber who has to pay attention to the bots instead of flooring his T2 Light and heading for the seal right off.    

 

anyway.….   at least TierII is a lot different than it was 3 years ago.     Advice to newbies needs some updating about the bottom tiers.   

 

 

Maybe you should be MORE SPECIFIC and mention that these BOTS are on the South American Server Only.

 

The way you posted this you make it sound like the NA servers are ALL full of these and this is simply NOT TRUE.

 

 

So, next time, how about being a little more clear and noting that you are playing on the SA server when you are doing this?  You know, that whole truth in reporting thing.

 

 

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ChaseR392 #17 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 15:45

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View Postdunniteowl, on Nov 23 2019 - 15:32, said:

 

The way you posted this you make it sound like the NA servers are ALL full of these and this is simply NOT TRUE.

 

 

That's exactly what he was implying dunn…

 

Would you expect any less from the forum's most prolific tin-foil wearing, SBMM kool-aid drinker?



dunniteowl #18 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 16:59

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View PostChaseR392, on Nov 23 2019 - 08:45, said:

 

That's exactly what he was implying dunn…

 

Would you expect any less from the forum's most prolific tin-foil wearing, SBMM kool-aid drinker?

 

I never attempt to attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.  Even when the anecdotal evidence is strong, I believe that Cognitive Dissonance is a song many have in their hearts.  That 'song' makes a perception breakthrough difficult.  As I am the most optimistic person I know, I act on that optimism and choose to believe that most speak from ignorance on some level over being purposely disingenuous.  
 

I will concede that the poster of which we speak provides a TREASURE TROVE of evidence to that effect.  I choose to believe it is an inability to see it any other way and thus, posts in that fashion.  My efforts are aimed at providing clarity to others who may be mystified by that cracked mirror of perception.

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
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da_Rock002 #19 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 17:05

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View PostBadkarma, on Nov 23 2019 - 09:22, said:

And with the anonymizer we won't be able to tell who the clubbers are as easily.


In the low tiers they usually stand out on the maps.

 

They're usually in one of about 5 OP vehicles that have proven over the years to harvest seals quickly.    Like the T2 Light.

 

Look on the map for something hauling [edited]and shooting a machine gun.   



the_dude_76 #20 Posted Nov 23 2019 - 17:24

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View Postda_Rock002, on Nov 23 2019 - 05:36, said:

BTW, for those experienced players who've posted about how the lower tiers work...……….

 

A few weeks back I decided to actually grind a line and see what it's like.  And also figured to improve my one Polish crew while I was at it.   That led to somewhat of a shocking discovery.   The low tiers are DIFFERENT nowadays !      WGNA solved the lack of new players problems by creating a MM that spits out bot-filled teams to accommodate the very few new players showing up in Tier1-Tier5 queues.    And seems to be playing around with it.

 

 

Nope. WG only uses bots on the SA server and they honestly aren't half bad. They certainly don't drive themselves into corners or run around in circles. What you are seeing is people screwing around or with no clue yet what's going on/






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