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Arty Isn't a Problem (Or is it? You Be the Judge)

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Trauglodyte #21 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 14:25

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 15 2020 - 04:08, said:

that word was bolded for a reason. It is arty safe, but not arty-splash safe. I didn't know that until I started getting hit.

 

I think that this is the biggest crux of the problem, that enrage the anti-artillery folks.  There is being direct hit artillery safe, there is being 100% artillery safe (i.e. unspotted), and then there is everything else WHICH IS you're in splash range.  Now, a lot of this is WarGaming's fault.  IF you remember, back when the SPG 2.0 patch kicked in, people were taking mass amounts of damage from splash, through terrain.  It was happening because there was no loss of damage, from splash going vertical, over an obstacle, down, and then onto the tank.  WarGaming "fixed" it but didn't remove it, entirely.  It is why I can still use buildings, as splash anchors, in the middle of Fisherman's Bay.  I'm going to do inefficient damage but I'm doing doing damage (AND applying the daze effect).  What was and still is coded is 100% against reality, as hard terrain should shield and break the conal effect, of the blast.  Instead, it simply acts as a retarding agent.

 

As an artillery player, I've long said that damage drop-off shouldn't be linear but instead should be bell shaped.  That way, if I hit you direct on (or near direct on), you take a big hit.  If I miss wide, the damage drops off significantly and then adjusts at the outer edge.  It wouldn't be a damage nerf, per se, because the total damage is maintained.  Point of fact, it would be both a buff, in that you'd do more consistent damage (to the direct hit value) on close hits, and a nerf, in that you'd be doing less damage on misses at the medium range of the blast radius.  In doing that, along with some other needed changes, it would reward you for aiming full on and making solid shots while also punishing you for taking chancy shots.

 

The one thing that stands out, in this topic, is the misassumptions that players make.  Normal tanks vs normal tanks is completely binary - did the shot hit, yes or no?  With artillery, it is all about angles and geometry.  The normal tank player "thinking" that they're artillery safe are assuming that, based upon the same binary rules by which they play.  In this case, OP, you were thinking that you were arty safe when you were direct hit safe but splash open.  Artillery is an A2/AD weapon - anti-access/area-denial.  The thinking has ALWAYS been and should always be: how much of my tank is vulnerable to splash.  Stop thinking so linearly and expand the thought process.  You'll never ever be truly 100% artillery safe.  But, understanding the difference between completely safe and partially open will make for a much better gaming experience.

 

One last thing, the changes to artillery, that were on test, are pretty bad.  I put in over 100 games, at tier 10 on test, and they essentially removed the stun effect and increased the cost of playing by 4x, since premium ammo was the only thing that you could use, just to maintain some semblance of competitiveness and team support.  They've got a lot of work to do, still, but I think it can be done.



Ironclad455 #22 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 15:07

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Arty is much better to play since the latest change.  That said, there should be a max of 2 arty per side.

BadCorps #23 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 16:42

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I believe you're HEAVILY overestimating how much damage that M40/43 did. I still play my M53/55 which mounts a (nearly identical) 203mm gun, I miss so much as a metre and my damage is about 200 with a rarely a full double digit stun. Direct hits average about 300 on heavily armoured vehicles. Offhand I don't know the nominal armour of the 277, but I will say that a shell 203mm across and weights 92.5 kg should be capable of messing your s*** up. 

 

Mount a spall liner, get rid of your GLD. Russian tanks don't need to aim. Spall liner is overall a much better choice.

 

 



HAN_Y0L0 #24 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 16:46

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 14 2020 - 21:28, said:

For the last nearly 2 years, I have hated artillery gameplay. Then it hit me (sorta). I figured, well, maybe its just me. Maybe I just need to get arty safe more, get spotted less, and play better. Every game I get blasted by arty, I would say out loud: "get good, arty isn't a problem".

 

I've been doing that until today. Had a game on the new Kharkov today in my 277, where I am in the middle of the city (3 artillery game). I set up against the side of a building that is supposedly completely arty-safe. I end up getting spotted, and all hell breaks loose. Needless to say, it wasn't fully arty-proof, after finding out the hard way.

 

Immediately, the enemy M40/43 splashes me from approximately 5 meters away, does ~400 damage, kills 2 of my 4 crew, and blows both of my tracks off. 2nd shell comes in from the G.W. E100, hits around the same distance away, does ~500 damage, kills another crew member, sets an engine fire, damages my ammo rack, damages the engine, and gun. 5 seconds later, the last artillery shell hits me (and pens somehow), killing me from half health (about 1200-1300 HP).

 

After that, it's kinda hard to say that its the driver of the tank, and not the artillery mechanic. I mean, the gun and tracks getting damaged, I can understand completely. But how can a shell that doesn't connect with a tank deal that much damage, much less that much internal module damage? (I also think the stun mechanic is bullsh*t, but that's not the point of this thread).

 

With the HP pool increase/premium ammo nerf/arty nerf still somewhat in the air, I am genuinely curious to know how WG is planning on handling the future of SPG's in this game. I foresee a grim future for them, if they sit idle and leave artillery as is, because the current artillery meta does seem to be pissing off a lot of players.

 

Let the discussion begin...

 

I have had several friends come to the game and leave, the biggest reason? Artillery. Period.  I have played since beta and waaaaay back then I said it was an absolutely horrible idea/mechanic.  Fast forward to now, yes its a problem that should have never been implemented.



ANOTHER_ #25 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 16:55

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This is not arty, but maps which are an issue. Airport - worse map ever for HT. There is literally no place to hide. Instead of being punished for risky run from cover to cover HT get punished jsut because. 
This has to be changed. Artillery is Ok at this moment. May be, I'd make it damage less low-armored targets, but It takes a decent skill to hit smart MT\LT so lowering the damage may be arguable. 

WhineMaker #26 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 18:37

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View PostHAN_Y0L0, on Jan 16 2020 - 07:46, said:

I have had several friends come to the game and leave, the biggest reason? Artillery. Period.  I have played since beta and waaaaay back then I said it was an absolutely horrible idea/mechanic.  Fast forward to now, yes its a problem that should have never been implemented.

View PostArclyte, on Jan 15 2020 - 17:01, said:

no one cares about real life

 

this is a game, and arty is ruining it

 

Let your friends know, WG has an arty free tank game called WoT Blitz. Just for those unable to handle the full pc version of WoT, which includes arty... :great:

 



TRK213_Turkey #27 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 18:47

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IMHO the module and crew damage is out of control.  Someone must have set it to ludicrous speed.  And not just for arty...

Treeburst #28 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 18:56

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View PostWhineMaker, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:37, said:

 

Let your friends know, WG has an arty free tank game called WoT Blitz. Just for those unable to handle the full pc version of WoT, which includes arty... :great:

 


You keep saying that to people that are better than you. I don’t think that means what you think it means...



WhineMaker #29 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 19:41

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View PostTreeburst, on Jan 16 2020 - 09:56, said:


You keep saying that to people that are better than you. I don’t think that means what you think it means...

 

Am I supposed to actually care if someone is better than me in a video game?

 

 

WoT Blitz is a simple and viable workaround for the kiddo ragers and the "arty makes WoT too hard for me" crowd... :child:



MajorDoozy #30 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 19:54

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View PostArclyte, on Jan 15 2020 - 20:01, said:

no one cares about real life

 

this is a game, and arty is ruining it

I never said anything about real life. And you are correct about artillery ruining the game. Artillery used to be bad, now it is worse than it was.



MajorDoozy #31 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 19:56

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View PostWhineMaker, on Jan 16 2020 - 13:41, said:

 

Am I supposed to actually care if someone is better than me in a video game?

 

 

WoT Blitz is a simple and viable workaround for the kiddo ragers and the "arty makes WoT too hard for me" crowd... :child:

Are you blind, or stupid? I said get off of my [edited] thread. Go troll another forum.



MajorDoozy #32 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:01

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View PostBadCorps, on Jan 16 2020 - 10:42, said:

I believe you're HEAVILY overestimating how much damage that M40/43 did. I still play my M53/55 which mounts a (nearly identical) 203mm gun, I miss so much as a metre and my damage is about 200 with a rarely a full double digit stun. Direct hits average about 300 on heavily armoured vehicles. Offhand I don't know the nominal armour of the 277, but I will say that a shell 203mm across and weights 92.5 kg should be capable of messing your s*** up. 

 

Mount a spall liner, get rid of your GLD. Russian tanks don't need to aim. Spall liner is overall a much better choice.

 

 

I watched it happen, I was there dude lol. That is the damage I had received to my tank.

 

And the fact that you're telling me to run a spall liner on a 277 makes it obvious that you don't know anything about how to play the 277.



MajorDoozy #33 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:04

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 16 2020 - 08:25, said:

 

I think that this is the biggest crux of the problem, that enrage the anti-artillery folks.  There is being direct hit artillery safe, there is being 100% artillery safe (i.e. unspotted), and then there is everything else WHICH IS you're in splash range.  Now, a lot of this is WarGaming's fault.  IF you remember, back when the SPG 2.0 patch kicked in, people were taking mass amounts of damage from splash, through terrain.  It was happening because there was no loss of damage, from splash going vertical, over an obstacle, down, and then onto the tank.  WarGaming "fixed" it but didn't remove it, entirely.  It is why I can still use buildings, as splash anchors, in the middle of Fisherman's Bay.  I'm going to do inefficient damage but I'm doing doing damage (AND applying the daze effect).  What was and still is coded is 100% against reality, as hard terrain should shield and break the conal effect, of the blast.  Instead, it simply acts as a retarding agent.

 

As an artillery player, I've long said that damage drop-off shouldn't be linear but instead should be bell shaped.  That way, if I hit you direct on (or near direct on), you take a big hit.  If I miss wide, the damage drops off significantly and then adjusts at the outer edge.  It wouldn't be a damage nerf, per se, because the total damage is maintained.  Point of fact, it would be both a buff, in that you'd do more consistent damage (to the direct hit value) on close hits, and a nerf, in that you'd be doing less damage on misses at the medium range of the blast radius.  In doing that, along with some other needed changes, it would reward you for aiming full on and making solid shots while also punishing you for taking chancy shots.

 

The one thing that stands out, in this topic, is the misassumptions that players make.  Normal tanks vs normal tanks is completely binary - did the shot hit, yes or no?  With artillery, it is all about angles and geometry.  The normal tank player "thinking" that they're artillery safe are assuming that, based upon the same binary rules by which they play.  In this case, OP, you were thinking that you were arty safe when you were direct hit safe but splash open.  Artillery is an A2/AD weapon - anti-access/area-denial.  The thinking has ALWAYS been and should always be: how much of my tank is vulnerable to splash.  Stop thinking so linearly and expand the thought process.  You'll never ever be truly 100% artillery safe.  But, understanding the difference between completely safe and partially open will make for a much better gaming experience.

 

One last thing, the changes to artillery, that were on test, are pretty bad.  I put in over 100 games, at tier 10 on test, and they essentially removed the stun effect and increased the cost of playing by 4x, since premium ammo was the only thing that you could use, just to maintain some semblance of competitiveness and team support.  They've got a lot of work to do, still, but I think it can be done.

This artillery nerf is needed, and is well deserved. A class of vehicle that has a top-down view of the map and can hit you from everywhere, and always do damage from the other side of the map is complete horse [edited]. Artillery still does too much damage/module damage, especially when they splash.

 

If you're gonna play a class of tank that has the capability to do such "reliable" damage, then it should be expensive, and they shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do by not even hitting the tank they are aiming at. Plain and simple, they shouldn't be able to do the amounts of damage that they do, with the capabilities they have (top-down view, can see you all over the map regardless of radio range, can shoot over objects, and shoot beside you and still do damage).


Edited by MajorDoozy, Jan 16 2020 - 20:06.


MajorDoozy #34 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:09

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View PostANOTHER_, on Jan 16 2020 - 10:55, said:

This is not arty, but maps which are an issue. Airport - worse map ever for HT. There is literally no place to hide. Instead of being punished for risky run from cover to cover HT get punished jsut because. 
This has to be changed. Artillery is Ok at this moment. May be, I'd make it damage less low-armored targets, but It takes a decent skill to hit smart MT\LT so lowering the damage may be arguable. 

It is 100% an artillery issue. The maps are fine. We don't even have a map in the game called "Airport" dude, lol. What are you smoking???

 

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.



Altwar #35 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:11

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 10:56, said:

Are you blind, or stupid? I said get off of my [edited] thread. Go troll another forum.

 

This forum is open to all comments as long as they follow the forum rules.  If you don't like responses that are contrary to your view, ignore them.

 

Meanwhile to me, SPGs are a minor inconvenience.  I've played them enough to know how to limit their ability to effectively attack me.  Even so, there are some games where they will absolutely clobber my tank no matter what I do.  But that's no different than a wolf pack of tanks that smash a flank I may be on and completely rip me to shreds.



ShadowDancer27 #36 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:14

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The high tier arty can still splash pretty hard and I find it actually does more damage hitting close to a vehicle than on a direct hit...which makes no sense at all.

 

Going through my crews a bit last night I noticed my FV304 crew had 18 high caliber medals...oh the days of Bert in its prime.  With zero splash damage now and nerfs to every aspect it is only fun if you don't look at the game summary after to see your average damage on hits was in pew pew gun range.



Treeburst #37 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:14

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View PostWhineMaker, on Jan 16 2020 - 13:41, said:

 

Am I supposed to actually care if someone is better than me in a video game?

 

 

WoT Blitz is a simple and viable workaround for the kiddo ragers and the "arty makes WoT too hard for me" crowd... :child:

 

The problem is all of the folks you are sneering at and claiming they are whining that WoT is “too hard for them” are better than you are at the game that is “too hard for them”. 
 

I’m sorry you can’t see the logical contradiction here, but I don’t think I can type any slower to help you. 



Trauglodyte #38 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:29

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 20:04, said:

This artillery nerf is needed, and is well deserved. A class of vehicle that has a top-down view of the map and can hit you from everywhere, and always do damage from the other side of the map is complete horse [edited]. Artillery still does too much damage/module damage, especially when they splash.

 

If you're gonna play a class of tank that has the capability to do such "reliable" damage, then it should be expensive, and they shouldn't be hitting as hard as they do by not even hitting the tank they are aiming at. Plain and simple, they shouldn't be able to do the amounts of damage that they do, with the capabilities they have (top-down view, can see you all over the map regardless of radio range, can shoot over objects, and shoot beside you and still do damage).

 

Not for nothing, Doozy, but you're getting emotional here.  I'm all for having a discussion but, when it comes to balance and discussions of this sort, emotion needs to be checked at the door.

 

You posed the question about why things happen.  You're a very good player and you, yourself, admitted that you have miscalculated on being "arty safe".  That is because you made the mistake, both in your positioning and in thinking in the same direct damage thought process by which you play.  That isn't a bad thing, per se, and doesn't make YOU bad.  Again, I have a problem with how they have some things coded, in respect to artillery, but it isn't the team base game breaking doomsayer that you and others make it out to be.  It hurts you, individually, but its overall impact on the team game is relatively low.  This is the crux of the problem, with this discussion, and why I said that emotion cannot be brought into it.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the splash radius needs to be much larger BUT the damage needs to be lowered and that they need to experiment with penetration drop-off.  I also think that there needs to be a direct fire component built into artillery, so that there is a way for good/great SPG players to make a greater impact, in crucial moments, thus creating a skill gap between clickers and people that actually impact the game.

 

Two things that I do want to note.  So much of the angst against artillery stems from things that aren't artillery specific.  HE damage is what artillery is based upon but it is a game-wide problem.  There are three different topics. on WoT Reddit, showing short vids of Light tanks getting crew ganked by a super RNG HE roll, from an EBR.  The other problem is map size and overall design.  Artillery is an area denial weapon that, because of the shoe box maps, has turned into an arcing tactical nuke (in some situations) or a wet Black Cat (in other situations).  You spend more time aiming in, because the concept of general aim doesn't work because of a lack of adequate splash.  So, you've got problems with HE, small and poorly designed maps, some SPG mechanics, and too many SPGs per game that, altogether, make for what could be a bad experience.



orangeandblue #39 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 20:54

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Well WG has two options that would make the anti-artillery crowd happy and they've taken neither. 1) Eliminate artillery all-together, of course, being the first choice, which frankly I could live with. 2) Limit artillery to one per game per side. So what if it makes artillery wait times longer? The simple fact of the matter is that cramming 3 artillery per side onto ANY map is flat out stupid, and especially on the smaller city maps, it's like, W T F? 



ANOTHER_ #40 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:04

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 20:09, said:

It is 100% an artillery issue. The maps are fine. We don't even have a map in the game called "Airport" dude, lol. What are you smoking???

 

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Maps#Airfield

I see Senpai started to accept all sort of game junk... E25 hero talks everybody hush, he knows thing or two about the game. And even more about how to be polite and well-behave 

 







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