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Arty Isn't a Problem (Or is it? You Be the Judge)

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WhineMaker #41 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:16

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View Postorangeandblue, on Jan 16 2020 - 11:54, said:

Well WG has two options that would make the anti-artillery crowd happy and they've taken neither. 1) Eliminate artillery all-together, of course, being the first choice, which frankly I could live with. 2) Limit artillery to one per game per side. So what if it makes artillery wait times longer? The simple fact of the matter is that cramming 3 artillery per side onto ANY map is flat out stupid, and especially on the smaller city maps, it's like, W T F? 

 

3) The kiddo ragers can go play all the arty free games they can handle in WoT Blitz 

 

Option #3 is something I could live with... :great:

 

 

So what if the gameplay is different and the graphics are a lower quality... ;)

 

 

 

I'm shocked, you actually believe I care what makes the anti arty crowd happy?



ANOTHER_ #42 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:21

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View Postorangeandblue, on Jan 16 2020 - 20:54, said:

Well WG has two options that would make the anti-artillery crowd happy and they've taken neither. 1) Eliminate artillery all-together, of course, being the first choice, which frankly I could live with. 2) Limit artillery to one per game per side. So what if it makes artillery wait times longer? The simple fact of the matter is that cramming 3 artillery per side onto ANY map is flat out stupid, and especially on the smaller city maps, it's like, W T F? 

I love arty, play it and I would be COMPLETELY fine with removing it altogether with compensation modules being moved to depot, crew reset to be trained to other vehicles and silver\XP cost refunded. 
Second option is very attractive, too, with one condition: limit LT up to two, no more than one wheeled, TD should be limited to two and no more than one british HE, Heavies and MT without limits, except japon alcotanks. Then we would have world of tanks. 

P.S.: it in interesting to see how people are unable to understand that artillery is one of things that is able to prevent say YOUJO or KOZAK platoons from having 100% winrate... 



Carde #43 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:29

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3 per side is a huge problem.  The Tier 6 M44 is the most profitable tech tree option in world of tanks, which seeds matches from tier 4 to tier 8 with an oversupply of them.  M44 is the most played vehicle in World of Tanks, which is alarming. That is a problem.  Making the M44 less good would be smart. You could just make it cost more buy shells or repair and people would find the next best non arty to farm credits in.   So would limiting arty per side to 2 or less.  These are easy fixes, and despite the amount of people playing M44s there would be huge amounts of positive feedback if less people played them and the gaming experience from low to middle tiers would vastly improve. 

 

Overall improvements to this game are being delayed by the ammo rebalance.  While nerfing arty or reducing it per side is prolly never going to happen....we are being sandbagged on every other issue because wargaming is taking too long and investing either too little personnel or unqualified personnel on the project. I dont want to hear that wargaming is too busy working on a task that has taken a year for them to do other tasks, and i do not believe that sentiment is unfair.

 
 
 


MajorDoozy #44 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:41

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View PostANOTHER_, on Jan 16 2020 - 15:04, said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Maps#Airfield

I see Senpai started to accept all sort of game junk... E25 hero talks everybody hush, he knows thing or two about the game. And even more about how to be polite and well-behave 

 

Learn to use grammar properly before trying to talk trash to me.



ANOTHER_ #45 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:46

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 21:41, said:

Learn to use grammar properly before trying to talk trash to me.


I speak 4 languages and do use them nearly every day, mistakes and typos are inevitable. 
Got to say something more constructive and close to topic?


Edited by ANOTHER_, Jan 16 2020 - 21:47.


Kapy #46 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:50

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I hate arty so much I won't even help them on my team. They are so overpowered.

MajorDoozy #47 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:51

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View PostTrauglodyte, on Jan 16 2020 - 14:29, said:

 

Not for nothing, Doozy, but you're getting emotional here.  I'm all for having a discussion but, when it comes to balance and discussions of this sort, emotion needs to be checked at the door.

 

You posed the question about why things happen.  You're a very good player and you, yourself, admitted that you have miscalculated on being "arty safe".  That is because you made the mistake, both in your positioning and in thinking in the same direct damage thought process by which you play.  That isn't a bad thing, per se, and doesn't make YOU bad.  Again, I have a problem with how they have some things coded, in respect to artillery, but it isn't the team base game breaking doomsayer that you and others make it out to be.  It hurts you, individually, but its overall impact on the team game is relatively low.  This is the crux of the problem, with this discussion, and why I said that emotion cannot be brought into it.

 

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the splash radius needs to be much larger BUT the damage needs to be lowered and that they need to experiment with penetration drop-off.  I also think that there needs to be a direct fire component built into artillery, so that there is a way for good/great SPG players to make a greater impact, in crucial moments, thus creating a skill gap between clickers and people that actually impact the game.

 

Two things that I do want to note.  So much of the angst against artillery stems from things that aren't artillery specific.  HE damage is what artillery is based upon but it is a game-wide problem.  There are three different topics. on WoT Reddit, showing short vids of Light tanks getting crew ganked by a super RNG HE roll, from an EBR.  The other problem is map size and overall design.  Artillery is an area denial weapon that, because of the shoe box maps, has turned into an arcing tactical nuke (in some situations) or a wet Black Cat (in other situations).  You spend more time aiming in, because the concept of general aim doesn't work because of a lack of adequate splash.  So, you've got problems with HE, small and poorly designed maps, some SPG mechanics, and too many SPGs per game that, altogether, make for what could be a bad experience.

I don't necessarily disagree on the emotion part. I just genuinely believe the damage SPG's do at the moment is beyond ridiculous.

 

I agree with everything else you said.



MajorDoozy #48 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:53

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View PostANOTHER_, on Jan 16 2020 - 15:46, said:


I speak 4 languages and do use them nearly every day, mistakes and typos are inevitable. 
Got to say something more constructive and close to topic?

I genuinely can't tell if you're trying to be condescending or nice. 


Edited by MajorDoozy, Jan 16 2020 - 21:53.


MajorDoozy #49 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 21:55

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View PostWhineMaker, on Jan 16 2020 - 15:16, said:

 

3) The kiddo ragers can go play all the arty free games they can handle in WoT Blitz 

 

Option #3 is something I could live with... :great:

 

 

So what if the gameplay is different and the graphics are a lower quality... ;)

You are literally wasting your energy typing your responses. No one cares about what you have to say.



ANOTHER_ #50 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 22:21

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 21:53, said:

I genuinely can't tell if you're trying to be condescending or nice. 

If in doubt - always suspect interlocutors poor English knowledge. Rule of thumb :) 

1. there is a number of maps (airfield is one of the most demonstrative cases) where artillery is way too much punishing and players personal skill can't do anything to win against artillery. Especially HT. This maps have to be addressed.
2. Artillery damage to lightly armored targets should be significantly lowered. May be it even should be percentage of health. Next: critical damage should be en par with same chance that usual MT\HT have. Except tracks - it is fine to leave it as is to make artillery supportive. It will make artillery playable agains ANY level, as it is always a percentage, not a firm amount. Ok, let's allow crits make x1.5 damage.
3. If nothing else it is ok to remove artillery completely with compensation. 

Hope, now we on the same page.



WhineMaker #51 Posted Jan 16 2020 - 22:55

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:55, said:

You are literally wasting your energy typing your responses. No one cares about what you have to say.

 

#TheKiddoRageIsREAL

 

#EpicTantrumInProgress

 

 

 

 

If you truly want to express your tantrum in epic proportions, have your Mommy put your colorful rain boots on and stomp as hard as you can, swing your little fists wildly in the air, let the spit fly, all while screaming at the top of your lungs... :child:

 

If all that doesn't work for you, maybe if you hold your breath until you turn blue and eventually pass out... :P

 

 

 

 

Time to queue up my arty and play 15-20 games.  Hopefully you'll be on the red team, just so I can keep your games as dynamic and enjoyable as possible... :great:



MajorDoozy #52 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 02:44

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View PostWhineMaker, on Jan 16 2020 - 16:55, said:

 

#TheKiddoRageIsREAL

 

#EpicTantrumInProgress

 

 

 

 

If you truly want to express your tantrum in epic proportions, have your Mommy put your colorful rain boots on and stomp as hard as you can, swing your little fists wildly in the air, let the spit fly, all while screaming at the top of your lungs... :child:

 

If all that doesn't work for you, maybe if you hold your breath until you turn blue and eventually pass out... :P

 

 

 

 

Time to queue up my arty and play 15-20 games.  Hopefully you'll be on the red team, just so I can keep your games as dynamic and enjoyable as possible... :great:

I rest my case. You are the embodiment of a troll. Take your useless responses elsewhere.



WhineMaker #53 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 04:42

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I hope I didn't take too much precious damage away from the stat padders kiddo ragers in my M44... :P

Spoiler

 

I promise to do my best to damage the 5 red team members I missed this battle... :great:



Primal_Mercenary #54 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 14:42

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 14 2020 - 19:28, said:

For the last nearly 2 years, I have hated artillery gameplay. Then it hit me (sorta). I figured, well, maybe its just me. Maybe I just need to get arty safe more, get spotted less, and play better. Every game I get blasted by arty, I would say out loud: "get good, arty isn't a problem".

 

I've been doing that until today. Had a game on the new Kharkov today in my 277, where I am in the middle of the city (3 artillery game). I set up against the side of a building that is supposedly completely arty-safe. I end up getting spotted, and all hell breaks loose. Needless to say, it wasn't fully arty-proof, after finding out the hard way.

 

Immediately, the enemy M40/43 splashes me from approximately 5 meters away, does ~400 damage, kills 2 of my 4 crew, and blows both of my tracks off. 2nd shell comes in from the G.W. E100, hits around the same distance away, does ~500 damage, kills another crew member, sets an engine fire, damages my ammo rack, damages the engine, and gun. 5 seconds later, the last artillery shell hits me (and pens somehow), killing me from half health (about 1200-1300 HP).

 

After that, it's kinda hard to say that its the driver of the tank, and not the artillery mechanic. I mean, the gun and tracks getting damaged, I can understand completely. But how can a shell that doesn't connect with a tank deal that much damage, much less that much internal module damage? (I also think the stun mechanic is bullsh*t, but that's not the point of this thread).

 

With the HP pool increase/premium ammo nerf/arty nerf still somewhat in the air, I am genuinely curious to know how WG is planning on handling the future of SPG's in this game. I foresee a grim future for them, if they sit idle and leave artillery as is, because the current artillery meta does seem to be pissing off a lot of players. 

 

Let the discussion begin...

 

Someone must not have been around when arty used to do 1800-2400 damage a shot with AP.  They nerfed arty to do more "stuns" which that doesn't really even happen.  A player may be stunned, but most of the time their tanks isn't tracked.  Some of us that play arty is crap internet in a 3rd world country and don't have to play as much.  Hard to run and gun with a 250 constant ping, or higher.



Altwar #55 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 18:42

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View PostANOTHER_, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:21, said:

I love arty, play it and I would be COMPLETELY fine with removing it altogether with compensation modules being moved to depot, crew reset to be trained to other vehicles and silver\XP cost refunded.   To players who have most to all tech trees researched, and/or are flush with silver and xp, this is no compensation at all.
Second option is very attractive, too, with one condition: limit LT up to two, no more than one wheeled, TD should be limited to two and no more than one british HE, Heavies and MT without limits, except japon alcotanks. Then we would have world of tanks. SPGs have gone from unlimited to limits 5 and the 3 already.  I believe they've been limited enough.  Point of interest might be is that how large was the NA player base with unlimited SPGs compared to now?  Hmmmmmm....one could conclude....:popcorn:

 

And World of Tanks, as defined by Wargaming:  World of Tanks is a massively multiplayer online game featuring combat vehicles from the mid-20th century. Join tankers from all over the world, throw yourself into epic tank battles, and fight for victory!  So you see, we already have World of Tanks.  

P.S.: it in interesting to see how people are unable to understand that artillery is one of things that is able to prevent say YOUJO or KOZAK platoons from having 100% winrate... They wouldn't.  As human beings, they have their faults and can be beaten, with or without SPGs.  Whether the absence of SPGs would make them harder to beat is subject to debate and remains unproven.

 

View PostKapy, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:50, said:

I hate arty so much I won't even help them on my team. They are so overpowered.

Some might venture to say it isn't only allied SPGs you aren't helping....

 

View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:55, said:

You are literally wasting your energy typing your responses. No one cares I don't care about what you have to say.

Not nice or correct to assume you speak for others;  I for one find him amusing.

 



HAN_Y0L0 #56 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 20:42

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View PostTreeburst, on Jan 16 2020 - 12:56, said:


You keep saying that to people that are better than you. I don’t think that means what you think it means...

Don't bother responding, I don't... WhineMaker is literally the embodiment of trolling. I quit responding to anything he posts some time ago.



grandthefttankV #57 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 22:24

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Arty has not been a problem for quite some time and those who disagree are obvious campers. The RNG has made aim dispersion so wild it is hard to hit anything with a clicker. They’ve even shortened the stun time and reduced the damage that arty can do. No more one shot derping from afar.

Seriously if you are getting struck by arty repeatedly you are either camping or driving a T95 - in which case arty is clearly not op enough.

WhineMaker #58 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 23:14

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 16 2020 - 17:44, said:

I rest my case. You are the embodiment of a troll. Take your useless responses elsewhere.

 

Is widdams still in the midst of an epic tantrum? :child:

 

Maybe you need to find a web host, register a URL and then create your own forums if you want me to post elsewhere. Until you do, I'll continue to post on any of WG's threads I choose... :P

 

 

 

 

Like I mentioned before, WG has an arty free tank game for those of you unable to handle the full pc version of WoT, which includes arty... :ohmy:

 

Can you say "WoT Blitz?"

 

Sure you can... :great:

 

 

So easy even a kiddo rager can do it... ;)



JellyFishBob_ #59 Posted Jan 17 2020 - 23:24

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View PostCrazy___Canuck, on Jan 15 2020 - 11:39, said:

There is no discussion...…….just another arty rant. 

 

Wheelies are a problem, camping TDs are a problem, OP Russian medium tanks are a problem, etc.  It's a matter of perspective to excuse why you (and the rest of us) are not as good as we think we should be and would like to think we are!   Welcome to WoT, and the challenge it brings to make you a better player, and overcome these 'unfair' challenges!!  

 

(snowflake alert!)


You Sir are hitting that nail right on ..  Oh and Hi long time no see   :great:

 

The reasons I play Arty

1 :  I am 65 yro

2 :  I have arthritis 

3 : I am lazy old sod  :P


Edited by JellyFishBob_, Jan 17 2020 - 23:27.


dunniteowl #60 Posted Jan 18 2020 - 02:32

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View PostMajorDoozy, on Jan 14 2020 - 20:28, said:

For the last nearly 2 years, I have hated artillery gameplay. Then it hit me (sorta). I figured, well, maybe its just me. Maybe I just need to get arty safe more, get spotted less, and play better. Every game I get blasted by arty, I would say out loud: "get good, arty isn't a problem".

 

I've been doing that until today. Had a game on the new Kharkov today in my 277, where I am in the middle of the city (3 artillery game). I set up against the side of a building that is supposedly completely arty-safe. I end up getting spotted, and all hell breaks loose. Needless to say, it wasn't fully arty-proof, after finding out the hard way.

 

Immediately, the enemy M40/43 splashes me from approximately 5 meters away, does ~400 damage, kills 2 of my 4 crew, and blows both of my tracks off. 2nd shell comes in from the G.W. E100, hits around the same distance away, does ~500 damage, kills another crew member, sets an engine fire, damages my ammo rack, damages the engine, and gun. 5 seconds later, the last artillery shell hits me (and pens somehow), killing me from half health (about 1200-1300 HP).

 

After that, it's kinda hard to say that its the driver of the tank, and not the artillery mechanic. I mean, the gun and tracks getting damaged, I can understand completely. But how can a shell that doesn't connect with a tank deal that much damage, much less that much internal module damage? (I also think the stun mechanic is bullsh*t, but that's not the point of this thread).

 

With the HP pool increase/premium ammo nerf/arty nerf still somewhat in the air, I am genuinely curious to know how WG is planning on handling the future of SPG's in this game. I foresee a grim future for them, if they sit idle and leave artillery as is, because the current artillery meta does seem to be pissing off a lot of players. 

 

Let the discussion begin...

 

 

I feel you, OP.  I can't play now for technical reasons and for a long while before that, my computer was so limited that arty was one of the few units I COULD play without too much trouble.  That said, there are times when you are just 'that guy' on a map where the arty players position themselves well outside of the 'usual' arty places.  This was one of those cases, I'm willing to bet. 

 

I like Kharkov, both before and after, for SPGs of various types.  While not in the higher tiers (again, I limited my tier play due to my potato computer) I like playing ALL classes and really do enjoy the MEDs and HVY tanks.  I sort of suck at LTs and do well enough in TDs and SPGs.  Due to my situation technically, I have had to take a harder look at HOW I can play the game at 11 fps on lowest SD settings.

 

This means that I cannot afford to play 'standard' level places.  I look for places that allow me to play the units I have in unusual ways which still keep my gun in the game as much as possible.

 

When something like your above 'cool story' indicates, you should be paying Attention to the direction from which those shells came and make a mental note.  Obviously, getting pounded like you did in what you thought was an arty safe place has proven to be incorrect.

 

Some things to consider:
1) How often have you used that position in your OP?

2) How long were you spotted before making any movements that might have made it a bit harder to be hit?

3) Did you check the profiles of the players that nailed you in that match to see if they were above or below average players in those units?

 

Not all maps are that good for arty and not all arty players are going to be 'filthy clickers' of low skill.  Regardless of the prevailing opinion of many, SPGs do require a certain skill level in which to do well.  Sure the average to sub average player can use SPGs and get decent overall results in some cases, though I can assure you that 'bad' players are 'bad' players no matter what unit they pilot on the field.  Average players can generally do better in their SPGs than some of their regular units, but not so much so that it makes a huge difference in match outcomes.  

 

Believe me, I checked profiles of a LOT of players, both above average and below average players who use SPGs along with their other units.  I did this early on due to the whole Anti-Arty/Pro-Arty debates I discovered when I first got to the forums.  I checked something like 500 profiles, splitting them closely between +52% players and -47% players.  What I discovered is that a very small percentage of those sub 47% players do ANY better in SPGs than they do in other units and SPG only players at those levels are abysmally bad.  On the upper side, again, I found a very small percentage of players that do better in SPGs than they did in their other units, but those SPG only players at those levels were superior on the whole to their ALL classes players.

 

SPGs do not normally 'carry' games and the overall damage they do generally pales to the damage other classes do in a match.

 

This arty angst many players feel is nothing more, really, than the "Loss of Agency" that occurs when something happens that you have no control to change.  Man, does that ever suck.

 

OP, you got "artied" and that's all there is to it.  Like watching that Bot level Top Tier HVY player on your team totally jack up the situation by being a total tomato, getting 'artied' is one other aspect of this GAME (remember, it's only) that can be Most Frustrating for players and is ONE MORE THING that you have to learn to just shake off and leave behind you when you next hit, "Battle!"

 


GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO







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