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F0R_M07H3R_RU5514 #21 Posted Apr 04 2020 - 15:04

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View PostF0R_M07H3R_RU5514, on Apr 04 2020 - 08:06, said:

 

As much as anything, I believe this is at the heart of some player dissatisfaction ... before the economy was revamped, you would commonly lose credits at Tier 8 unless you had a premium account.  Credit losses at Tier 9 and Tier 10 were almost guaranteed unless you were a very good player who understood weak spots (back when tanks had weak spots).

 

Post-economy changes, good players with premium account and boosters can grind credits at Tier 10 as long as they're not grinding marks and shooting full premium ammunition.  Marginal and low-skill players no longer fear losing credits at Tier 9 and Tier 10.

 

View PostSKurj, on Apr 04 2020 - 08:08, said:

I was surprised to earn a little a tier 9 lately too.  Tier9 is looking better and better!  

 

View Post_Kradok_, on Apr 04 2020 - 08:14, said:

+1

 

Common sense logic.

 

In my heart, I want to believe WG were looking at some data ... Players reach Tier 8 and lose interest, because they can't progress due to the game economy.  Therefore, without new tank lines, they play less and eventually abandon the game.  In order to keep these players engaged for a longer period of time, the make higher tier game economics more appealing.  Unfortunately more marginal and low-skilled players make their way to higher tiers, diluting skill and frustrating many.  This last part is pure observational conjecture.  I've zero empirical data to support the claim.  I feel that I see more and more Tier 10 platoons with three players all at sub-45% win rate and sub 750 WN8 scores.  I can't imagine players doing this and consistently losing credits, so I sense they're playing higher tiers because economics of the game aren't scaring them off as in prior days.



beryn #22 Posted Apr 04 2020 - 15:15

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so this is a test, but after last night won 2 lost 11 and now I have gotten to the point that this is how I start every day with a very few wins here and there but mostly loses 


Edited by beryn, Apr 04 2020 - 16:04.


beryn #23 Posted Apr 04 2020 - 16:16

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_Kradok_ #24 Posted Apr 04 2020 - 17:24

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View PostF0R_M07H3R_RU5514, on Apr 04 2020 - 09:04, said:

 

 

 

In my heart, I want to believe WG were looking at some data ... Players reach Tier 8 and lose interest, because they can't progress due to the game economy.  Therefore, without new tank lines, they play less and eventually abandon the game.  In order to keep these players engaged for a longer period of time, the make higher tier game economics more appealing.  Unfortunately more marginal and low-skilled players make their way to higher tiers, diluting skill and frustrating many.  This last part is pure observational conjecture.  I've zero empirical data to support the claim.  I feel that I see more and more Tier 10 platoons with three players all at sub-45% win rate and sub 750 WN8 scores.  I can't imagine players doing this and consistently losing credits, so I sense they're playing higher tiers because economics of the game aren't scaring them off as in prior days.


I can see it...

 

And strongholds has made it where it's a credit-farm at tiers 8 and 6, if done properly.. This allows more game play at high tiers to accommodate the negative credit flow if that be the case.

 

And in active clans with boosters running, this will also help mitigate the credit sink at tier 9+.

 

:honoring:

 

 



alf2499 #25 Posted Apr 04 2020 - 21:54

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View PostF0R_M07H3R_RU5514, on Apr 04 2020 - 15:04, said:

 

 

 

In my heart, I want to believe WG were looking at some data ... Players reach Tier 8 and lose interest, because they can't progress due to the game economy.  Therefore, without new tank lines, they play less and eventually abandon the game.  In order to keep these players engaged for a longer period of time, the make higher tier game economics more appealing.  Unfortunately more marginal and low-skilled players make their way to higher tiers, diluting skill and frustrating many.  This last part is pure observational conjectureI've zero empirical data to support the claim.  I feel that I see more and more Tier 10 platoons with three players all at sub-45% win rate and sub 750 WN8 scores.  I can't imagine players doing this and consistently losing credits, so I sense they're playing higher tiers because economics of the game aren't scaring them off as in prior days.

 

It may be conjecture, but the logic behind it is solid, and I've seen similar it in other online games. when a de-facto skill barrier (in this case vehicle running costs) is removed, it follows that more people than before will starting playing in tier 8+.

And really, 45%WR players have always been around even in tier 8+, the main difference is they used to have 10,000+ battles, now I see people with under 1500 battles blundering around in tier 10s, the old credit barrier used to force these people to play mid tiers to familiarise themselves with the game mechanics and maps, now it's just a mad dash to tier 10, no doubt most of these new players rushing for tier 10 think the only reason they get farmed every game is cos they aren't in the biggest tanks.



Trakks #26 Posted Apr 05 2020 - 06:28

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View Postalf2499, on Apr 04 2020 - 20:54, said:

 

It may be conjecture, but the logic behind it is solid, and I've seen similar it in other online games. when a de-facto skill barrier (in this case vehicle running costs) is removed, it follows that more people than before will starting playing in tier 8+.

And really, 45%WR players have always been around even in tier 8+, the main difference is they used to have 10,000+ battles, now I see people with under 1500 battles blundering around in tier 10s, the old credit barrier used to force these people to play mid tiers to familiarise themselves with the game mechanics and maps, now it's just a mad dash to tier 10, no doubt most of these new players rushing for tier 10 think the only reason they get farmed every game is cos they aren't in the biggest tanks.

You can thank all the XP and credit boosters that the game gives out as mission rewards or that are sold in the premium shop for that. It wasn't that long ago when I would get depressed thinking about all the grinding I would have to do to buy a 900,000 credit tank. Now I can do it in a few hours. 



alf2499 #27 Posted Apr 05 2020 - 10:35

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View PostTrakks, on Apr 05 2020 - 06:28, said:

You can thank all the XP and credit boosters that the game gives out as mission rewards or that are sold in the premium shop for that. It wasn't that long ago when I would get depressed thinking about all the grinding I would have to do to buy a 900,000 credit tank. Now I can do it in a few hours. 

 

I'm well aware, blueprints as well. I didn't even bother to grind the credits for my first tier 10, I had to wait for a tech tree rework and sold a bunch of tanks I got as part of the rework compensation to be able to afford my first tier 10. These days it's a credit waterfall, especially with Frontline, I can make 12M+ credits in one FL episode with credit boosters, and that's without prem account time.



alb #28 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 14:49

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View PostTrakks, on Apr 05 2020 - 06:28, said:

You can thank all the XP and credit boosters that the game gives out as mission rewards or that are sold in the premium shop for that. It wasn't that long ago when I would get depressed thinking about all the grinding I would have to do to buy a 900,000 credit tank. Now I can do it in a few hours. 

View Postalf2499, on Apr 05 2020 - 10:35, said:

 

I'm well aware, blueprints as well. I didn't even bother to grind the credits for my first tier 10, I had to wait for a tech tree rework and sold a bunch of tanks I got as part of the rework compensation to be able to afford my first tier 10. These days it's a credit waterfall, especially with Frontline, I can make 12M+ credits in one FL episode with credit boosters, and that's without prem account time.

 

thumbs up for wargaming working on this problem - the grind :great:



Korvick #29 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 14:54

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View Postalb, on Apr 06 2020 - 13:49, said:

 

thumbs up for wargaming working on this problem - the grind :great:

 

We had a model which required a grind.  And it was a real grind.  We also had a model which FORCED people to play in mid tiers.  Cuz you just had to if you wanted to make money.

 

Then people complained.  So now we have this.

 

Got no opinion if this is good or bad anymore.  Its just how it is right now.



BurglarOfBanff_ff #30 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 15:39

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First, you don't have to grind.  Just play until you can move up.  There is no reason to believe higher tiers are generally more enjoyable.

 

Second, I think lower tiers should have limited equipment slots and crew skills.  A tier 2 tank with a 3 skill crew and full equipment has a huge advantage over a beginner.  Tier 1: no equipment slots, crew skills don't have any effect.  Tier 2: 1 equipment slot, first crew skill counts... etc.

 



alb #31 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 20:39

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View PostSKurj, on Apr 04 2020 - 13:58, said:

Wargaming's MM is the same in at least one other of their titles, and the shouting is not as loud over there but a similar thing is happening.

 

 

 

I read about the shouting on the MM and some are asking for skill based match making in this game. But with all the so many differing tank characteristics, OP tanks, under powered tanks, player skill variety, stat padded accounts (accounts showing higher stats than actual player skill), maps and RNG - players should expect unbalanced games rather than balanced games.

 

Also I'm not sure how better wargaming's in game service record player rating statistics are when compared with XVM, cause I don't think they are going to use the latter. (that is if they even go along with SBMM). 

 

I actually wonder if SBMM will produce even worse MM, if its all based on skill regardless of tanks etc. Just think two equal players one takes the best tank and the other takes the worst tank who gets matched against each other based on same skill.  :facepalm: Problem solved? don't think so...

 



SKurj #32 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 21:25

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View Postalb, on Apr 06 2020 - 14:39, said:

 

I read about the shouting on the MM and some are asking for skill based match making in this game. But with all the so many differing tank characteristics, OP tanks, under powered tanks, player skill variety, stat padded accounts (accounts showing higher stats than actual player skill), maps and RNG - players should expect unbalanced games rather than balanced games.

 

Also I'm not sure how better wargaming's in game service record player rating statistics are when compared with XVM, cause I don't think they are going to use the latter. (that is if they even go along with SBMM). 

 

I actually wonder if SBMM will produce even worse MM, if its all based on skill regardless of tanks etc. Just think two equal players one takes the best tank and the other takes the worst tank who gets matched against each other based on same skill.  :facepalm: Problem solved? don't think so...

 

 

SBMM will never happen...   yeah... perfect SBMM, every player gets 50% WR...  if you don't then SBMM must be broken... and so it continues...   blowouts?  would still happen, because little johnny had to run to the washroom mid match, or Bob's cat got on the keyb, or Jane has had a bad day and doesn't GAF, and hey we all have bad days, the SBMM cannot account for that.  1 player not on their game? and their begins the snowball... voila.. and another blowout...

 



Redcoat #33 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 21:45

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View Postalb, on Apr 04 2020 - 02:35, said:


Yeah, but I think wargaming are making right steps in making the game less painful. But even for premium account holders with premium tanks making min 45k+ credits per game will still unfortunately feel insufficient in this game.

I think the worst thing that Wargaming has done for this game is making the grind too damned easy... Personal Reserves handed out like candy (I have over 3000 of the damned things), blueprints, and 2x, 3x or 5x EXP weekends every freakin' weekend of the year mean that the upper tiers are largely populated by people who've run up the tech tree so fast they have no idea how to play... I've been with this game since beta, and I've never seen so many utterly clueless teams in tiers 8, 9 and 10 as I regularly see now. When it was HARD and took TIME, most players could be expected to have some idea what they were doing by tier 9. We have the worst high tier teams ever, and I think it's because no one has to actually gain a minimum competence level to move up the tiers... 



alf2499 #34 Posted Apr 06 2020 - 22:48

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View PostBurglarOfBanff_ff, on Apr 06 2020 - 15:39, said:

First, you don't have to grind.  Just play until you can move up.  There is no reason to believe higher tiers are generally more enjoyable.

 

Second, I think lower tiers should have limited equipment slots and crew skills.  A tier 2 tank with a 3 skill crew and full equipment has a huge advantage over a beginner.  Tier 1: no equipment slots, crew skills don't have any effect.  Tier 2: 1 equipment slot, first crew skill counts... etc.

 

 

I suspect a lot of players race for high tiers cos they think once they get the biggest tanks they'll be unstoppable pwning machines, giving no thought to the fact their complete lack of game mechanics and map understanding is what gets them farmed every game.



alb #35 Posted Apr 08 2020 - 22:35

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View PostSKurj, on Apr 06 2020 - 21:25, said:

 

SBMM will never happen...   yeah... perfect SBMM, every player gets 50% WR...  if you don't then SBMM must be broken... and so it continues...   blowouts?  would still happen, because little johnny had to run to the washroom mid match, or Bob's cat got on the keyb, or Jane has had a bad day and doesn't GAF, and hey we all have bad days, the SBMM cannot account for that.  1 player not on their game? and their begins the snowball... voila.. and another blowout...

 

 

View PostRedcoat, on Apr 06 2020 - 21:45, said:

I think the worst thing that Wargaming has done for this game is making the grind too damned easy... Personal Reserves handed out like candy (I have over 3000 of the damned things), blueprints, and 2x, 3x or 5x EXP weekends every freakin' weekend of the year mean that the upper tiers are largely populated by people who've run up the tech tree so fast they have no idea how to play... I've been with this game since beta, and I've never seen so many utterly clueless teams in tiers 8, 9 and 10 as I regularly see now. When it was HARD and took TIME, most players could be expected to have some idea what they were doing by tier 9. We have the worst high tier teams ever, and I think it's because no one has to actually gain a minimum competence level to move up the tiers... 

 

In battles I am seeing more players with around 3000-6000 battles with sub 46% winrate and sub 900 wn8. But some have bought premium tier 8 tanks so I suspect some have spent real money to progress.

 

IMO like many others too, these players will definitely have a frustrating impact to the gaming experience, especially, for the more experienced competitive players.

 

Also I just checked stats websites now and noticed that the recent server average win rate stats for NA server for active players is 49.6% and overall for NA server is 48.8% and its pretty much similar stats for other servers (EU. RU, SEA) too. So on average this means that the games are actually quite balanced on wargaming's side in terms of winnings, ie on "average" all the players are getting roughly 50-50 split in wins and losses as a whole.

 

But ofcourse this is just an average numbers as a whole for the server population!!!!! 

 



inline66 #36 Posted Apr 08 2020 - 23:10

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All i'm going to say is that anyone of us that have been playing the game for years can make multiple F2P accounts and probably do well. for completely new players that don't know how to play and get their [edited]kicked every game won't put the time and effort into grinding for garage slots and such. just because we can play for free since we know the game doesn't mean new people will be able to

Trakks #37 Posted Apr 09 2020 - 01:58

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View PostRedcoat, on Apr 06 2020 - 20:45, said:

I think the worst thing that Wargaming has done for this game is making the grind too damned easy... Personal Reserves handed out like candy (I have over 3000 of the damned things), blueprints, and 2x, 3x or 5x EXP weekends every freakin' weekend of the year mean that the upper tiers are largely populated by people who've run up the tech tree so fast they have no idea how to play... I've been with this game since beta, and I've never seen so many utterly clueless teams in tiers 8, 9 and 10 as I regularly see now. When it was HARD and took TIME, most players could be expected to have some idea what they were doing by tier 9. We have the worst high tier teams ever, and I think it's because no one has to actually gain a minimum competence level to move up the tiers... 

Gold spam is also a contributing factor. Why learn to play when you can let gold ammo do all the heavy lifting for you? 







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