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Buffing Underperforming Tanks - Czech Edition


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Herr_Apotheker #21 Posted May 26 2020 - 04:36

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I vote no buffing/shining "underperforming" vehicles... Instead, focus the effort into relationship of blueprint/historical/service history accuracy :)

 

Seriously, many tanks that are/were pieces of crap in reality are great in the game.. KV-2  as most salient example... and tanks that are pieces of crap in the game (Panther :) were potent weapons in reality...

 

Just enjoy watching David Fletcher at the Tank Museum.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=gZHwasYjcIA



TheJeep1 #22 Posted May 26 2020 - 05:26

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View PostHerr_Apotheker, on May 25 2020 - 19:36, said:

I vote no buffing/shining "underperforming" vehicles... Instead, focus the effort into relationship of blueprint/historical/service history accuracy :)

 

Seriously, many tanks that are/were pieces of crap in reality are great in the game.. KV-2  as most salient example... and tanks that are pieces of crap in the game (Panther :) were potent weapons in reality...

 

Just enjoy watching David Fletcher at the Tank Museum.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=gZHwasYjcIA


Yep.  Well said.  I dont think it's asking too much to leave a little of their real life attributes intact.



I_QQ_4_U #23 Posted May 26 2020 - 13:33

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View PostHerr_Apotheker, on May 26 2020 - 04:36, said:

I vote no buffing/shining "underperforming" vehicles... Instead, focus the effort into relationship of blueprint/historical/service history accuracy :)

 

Seriously, many tanks that are/were pieces of crap in reality are great in the game.. KV-2  as most salient example... and tanks that are pieces of crap in the game (Panther :) were potent weapons in reality...

 

 

 

 But the Panther isn't crap. What it is is balanced for a video game. In a one on one situation in reality a Panther or Tiger would usually dominate most of the tanks it faced but they were facing larger numbers with better support and were built in limited quantities. It would be ridiculous to put them into a tier equivalent to what they faced in reality in a video game that removes all the counters that existed in real life..



spud_tuber #24 Posted May 26 2020 - 18:41

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View PostI_QQ_4_U, on May 26 2020 - 06:33, said:

 

 

 But the Panther isn't crap. What it is is balanced for a video game. In a one on one situation in reality a Panther or Tiger would usually dominate most of the tanks it faced but they were facing larger numbers with better support and were built in limited quantities. It would be ridiculous to put them into a tier equivalent to what they faced in reality in a video game that removes all the counters that existed in real life..

I mean, the panther and tiger are ok, barely, at T7.  Probably still balanced, if at the lower edge of that range.  The P2 and tiger 2 are struggling at T8 though.  

 

The T7s would be fine at T6 with more historical configurations, though.  See tiger 131 and pundel.   KT seems a little too good at T7, last I looked at its performance stats, so tiger 2 would need to be a bit less.  Maybe a slight mobility and dpm nerf would be in order for it*shrug*(and since it the KT is only a rental, WG *could* nerf it as well by changing to a different rental for twitch for a month before the changes so the premium isn't better than the tech tree).

 

However, don't take any of the above as disagreement with your overall point.   Balance is important, and we don't need tanks significantly overperforming because "historical accuracy".  Consider it instead a partial roadmap for how WG could have made the tanks play more like people's impression of them historically without destroying balance.  I realize it is probably too late now, though. 

 

 



Avalon304 #25 Posted May 26 2020 - 22:44

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View Postspud_tuber, on May 26 2020 - 10:41, said:

I mean, the panther and tiger are ok, barely, at T7.  Probably still balanced, if at the lower edge of that range.  The P2 and tiger 2 are struggling at T8 though.  

 

The T7s would be fine at T6 with more historical configurations, though.  See tiger 131 and pundel.   KT seems a little too good at T7, last I looked at its performance stats, so tiger 2 would need to be a bit less.  Maybe a slight mobility and dpm nerf would be in order for it*shrug*(and since it the KT is only a rental, WG *could* nerf it as well by changing to a different rental for twitch for a month before the changes so the premium isn't better than the tech tree).

 

However, don't take any of the above as disagreement with your overall point.   Balance is important, and we don't need tanks significantly overperforming because "historical accuracy".  Consider it instead a partial roadmap for how WG could have made the tanks play more like people's impression of them historically without destroying balance.  I realize it is probably too late now, though. 

 

 

 

The panther isnt bad. Its not particularly good, but it isnt bad. Its problem is that the meta has left it behind. Being a low damage pew pew medium isnt helping it. The tier 6 panthers are pretty much in the same position goes, they arent good, but they arent particularly bad. The Tiger I however is the 2nd best tier 7 heavy tank, and the tier 6 ones are hot garbage.

 

Panther II is fine. Its got a reasonably capable gun, with average alpha for its tier and class. Again its not super good, but its not terrible either. The Tiger II is much the same, though it does have a problem: its turret roof is free famr to 122mm caliber guns (and thats a relatively easy fix). The tier 7 KT is hot garbage as well, all the armor problems with a trash gun. Players just need to accept that german tanks have higher skill floors than most other tanks.



spud_tuber #26 Posted May 26 2020 - 23:14

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View PostAvalon304, on May 26 2020 - 15:44, said:

 

The panther isnt bad. Its not particularly good, but it isnt bad. Its problem is that the meta has left it behind. Being a low damage pew pew medium isnt helping it. The tier 6 panthers are pretty much in the same position goes, they arent good, but they arent particularly bad. The Tiger I however is the 2nd best tier 7 heavy tank, and the tier 6 ones are hot garbage.

 

Panther II is fine. Its got a reasonably capable gun, with average alpha for its tier and class. Again its not super good, but its not terrible either. The Tiger II is much the same, though it does have a problem: its turret roof is free famr to 122mm caliber guns (and thats a relatively easy fix). The tier 7 KT is hot garbage as well, all the armor problems with a trash gun. Players just need to accept that german tanks have higher skill floors than most other tanks.

Data disagrees with you.   So, do I take your opinion(which, if data doesn't matter, is no better than that of a 45%er) or do I go with the data? Ummm,  I think I'll go with the data...



Avalon304 #27 Posted May 27 2020 - 02:20

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View Postspud_tuber, on May 26 2020 - 15:14, said:

Data disagrees with you.   So, do I take your opinion(which, if data doesn't matter, is no better than that of a 45%er) or do I go with the data? Ummm,  I think I'll go with the data...

 

Which data would this be? The tank winrate curves show exactly what Ive stated in regards to the Panther, Tiger I, Panther II and Tiger II. The curves for both the tier 6 panthers are highly suspect looking as well as appearing incomplete. Tiger 131, Ht. no VI and the KT © show them performing better, but theyre still garbage tanks.

 

So yea, not sure where you wanted to go there, but you werent going where you thought you were.

 

(Also... a 45% players opinion is worth nothing. A 57-60% players opinion is worth far more).



spud_tuber #28 Posted May 27 2020 - 02:50

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View PostAvalon304, on May 26 2020 - 19:20, said:

 

Which data would this be? The tank winrate curves show exactly what Ive stated in regards to the Panther, Tiger I, Panther II and Tiger II. The curves for both the tier 6 panthers are highly suspect looking as well as appearing incomplete. Tiger 131, Ht. no VI and the KT © show them performing better, but theyre still garbage tanks.

 

So yea, not sure where you wanted to go there, but you werent going where you thought you were.

 

(Also... a 45% players opinion is worth nothing. A 57-60% players opinion is worth far more).

The tank curves certainly don't show the tiger I as second best T7 heavy, or the KT and T6 tigers as hot garbage, so yeah....  Tiger II underperforms notably.. panther II and panther are both kinda ok, doing a bit better than I'd remembered, so I'll give you that.  Maybe that L100 actually helped the P2 more than I'd thought.  *shrug* Tiger is also doing ok at T7, but even the tiger P is doing better than it.  Nor do the curves demonstrate any abnormal skill floor or ceiling, with the curves generally being parallel with reference. 

 

How do you know a 45%or from a 57%er?  Stats, that's how.   If stats mean nothing,  and your opinion is more accurate, then you've dismissed stats, and you can no longer tell a 45%er from a 57%er, so their opinions hold the same weight at that point. 



Loremaster2 #29 Posted May 27 2020 - 03:47

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To me tiers 1 to 5 were fun, it was 6 that managed to beat me. I would argue that instead of buffing the line, have more engines or guns share across the tanks instead, like how the IS 3 middle gun is unlocked from the IS top gun so you won't stock grind the IS 3 with the completely stock gun.

Herr_Apotheker #30 Posted May 28 2020 - 01:49

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Respectfully, the Panther in the game appears to be a hitpoint pinata, and regularly farmed as a "middle of the pack" weapon with a Pew-Pew gun. When you get the long telephone pole 75mm/100 caliber gun, its easy to pen targets, so definitely get that mounted ASAP. :)

 

Fun fact: The ARL44 is rated nearly the same in Wins as the Panther in the Wot-Life stats in EU and NA servers... David Fletcher considered the ARL44 as nearly biggest piece of crap in history in his hilarious Tank Museum review.  :)

 



_Panzerkunst_ #31 Posted May 28 2020 - 07:29

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Numbers don't always tell the story but playing the Panthers & Tigers anyone can see that they've fallen a bit behind. I kinda wouldn't mind seeing the Panther & Tiger dropping to Tier 6 with more historical loadouts, Panther II dropping to Tier 7 with the L71 88 and a Vk45 type for the Tier 7 Heavy. The Tier 8 med can be a precursor to the E50 with a 105mm like the Lansen's and be a good rammer! Never gonna happen but fun to think about. Meanwhile, my feline friends will continue to collect dust until further notice.  

SuperJaws100 #32 Posted May 28 2020 - 09:22

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View Post_Panzerkunst_, on May 28 2020 - 01:29, said:

Numbers don't always tell the story but playing the Panthers & Tigers anyone can see that they've fallen a bit behind. I kinda wouldn't mind seeing the Panther & Tiger dropping to Tier 6 with more historical loadouts, Panther II dropping to Tier 7 with the L71 88 and a Vk45 type for the Tier 7 Heavy. The Tier 8 med can be a precursor to the E50 with a 105mm like the Lansen's and be a good rammer! Never gonna happen but fun to think about. Meanwhile, my feline friends will continue to collect dust until further notice.  

 

They are definitely out of meta. I don't think anyone can deny that. I also think the fact that the Premium Tigers are all downtiered is very telling. The problem - the Tier VI Tiger Is can be penned by KV2s frontally. The real issue here is that the KV2 is so immensely powerful and popular, it throws the entire game out of balance. The ability to delete a same tier heavy tank needs to go away.



Burhead06 #33 Posted May 28 2020 - 09:28

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i could see the argument for wanting to give the t8 a 3 round autoloader (because typically its tier 8 that usually gets the gimmick of a tank line)
swede's get the auto loader heavies , french get the auto loader heavies , american non turreted tds get actual armor etc....

but idk about the whole line thats just a lazy fix.

also , the kv2 is "immensely powerful"? its a meme tank, its fun for meme's its not good , its a meme, its slow , has no armor and its gun is horridly innacurate. you get to meme with it.

if the kv2 is "immensely powerful" why is the deathstar not game breaking? its a similar scenario only the deathstar is more accurate (not by a ton) and has armor that does things on occasion unlike the kv2.

Edited by Burhead06, May 28 2020 - 09:33.


alf2499 #34 Posted May 28 2020 - 10:02

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View Post_Panzerkunst_, on May 28 2020 - 07:29, said:

Numbers don't always tell the story but playing the Panthers & Tigers anyone can see that they've fallen a bit behind. I kinda wouldn't mind seeing the Panther & Tiger dropping to Tier 6 with more historical loadouts, Panther II dropping to Tier 7 with the L71 88 and a Vk45 type for the Tier 7 Heavy. The Tier 8 med can be a precursor to the E50 with a 105mm like the Lansen's and be a good rammer! Never gonna happen but fun to think about. Meanwhile, my feline friends will continue to collect dust until further notice.  

 

The Panther was surprisingly playable, it may be huge, and its armour and camo trash, but its got a reliable gun even if its alpha makes it a pea shooter, and its mobility is decent. 

Playing the Panther 2 made me wanna shove rocks up my [edited], tier for tier worse armour, same huge profile and crap camo, basically heavy tank mobility. Only good thing is the gun, and even there its alpha and DPM is power-creeped, and the pen is nothing special.






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