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[ S T ] Wheeled Vehicle Nerfs!

KRZY wheeled vehicles changes nerf nerfs

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jeb2 #61 Posted Jun 29 2020 - 13:37

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View Post1ll, on Jun 29 2020 - 03:48, said:

@jeb2

 

The problem of aiming at a fast object with PC gaming tech is not an EBR problem.  There are other tanks that are plenty fast - the Pz. 1 C does 79km in Tier III and yet I handle it fine with a Tier II tank.  You just have to position yourself well on the map and lead in compensation with your lag.  If you have high lag, hitting anything that doesn't sit still is going to be a problem, but the fundamental problem is then your high lag.

 

When an EBR is going at full speed, it is not a threat to you sitting there on account of its speed. It (and anything going fast) is only a threat to you because autoaim.  Few players could manually connect shots at that speed without autoaim and even if they tried, they'd have to risk not watching where they are going at up to 95km/h while aiming at you.  If an EBR spots you and you get hit by something other than the EBR, the core problem is you weren't in cover, not the EBR.  There are plenty of more deadly light tanks with max view range that could be doing the same thing without you even knowing they are there.

 

That tanks don't have their guns loaded at the start of a match is the problem that the tanks don't have their guns loaded at the start of the match, not an EBR problem.  If this is done to prevent snap shots into the enemy cap right away,  then a general delay of x seconds their gunner to be ready should apply to all tanks, where the delay is slightly shorter than the fastest light tank in the game reaching the enemy and longer than it takes the Maus to leave the cap circle.  Also, even without this, if your team doesn't have their guns loaded yet, on average the enemy team shouldn't have theirs loaded yet either, so it doesn't matter if the enemy EBR already dropped in for tea at max speed.

 

That the EBRs have low armor is precisely why they need the speed and a very good gun (manually aimed), and also why they need more view range than they currently have.  Even some Tier VIII heavy guns have such low dispersion that they can nail anything out to max draw range with good aiming, so anything the size of a car or larger is in great danger on the field unless it is going at a really good clip.

 

The physics treatment compensates for the player having to play both commander and driver (and gunner).  In real life, the driver would be watching where the tank's going and avoiding obstacles while the commander is looking elsewhere  If they had the normal physics, these tanks would  explode on contact with just about everything or when going off a bump, which would be a terrible play experience and have people complaining that their team's EBR was taken out early by a pebble.

 

Good discussion.  Let me respond paragraph by paragraph.

 

1) The low tier tanks do NOT have the same problem because the lower view ranges ensure the vehicles are closer (easier to hit) and the reloads and aim times are very short.  The Pz IC has a base view range of 320, while the tanks trying to shoot it have reloads of a little over 2 seconds and aim times well UNDER 2 seconds.  Oh, and BTW if their tracks are hit they stop.

 

2) The active spotter can always prox spot no matter WHAT cover one is in.  A too-fast scout can easily compensate for 50 m less view range by simply getting 50 m closer than it should be able to.  This happens so often in games with wheelies that it really requires no further explanation.  As for auto-aim, all tanks have it in one form or another.  The wheelies simply combine their slightly enhance auto-aim with silly fast turret traverse and fantasy low dispersion given their speed, angular changes, and gun caliber.  Give them the HMGs and 20 mm of your Pz IC example and few non-wheelie players would complain.

 

3) This misses the point.  Let's look at the EBR 90.  It loads in 8 seconds (7.8 with 2nd gun).  It takes between 5 - 11 seconds on Ensk, Paris, Himmelsdorf,  Siegfried (and probably a few others) for the EBR to get to where it can spot the enemy.  Previous LTs took longer, enough longer that the enemy tanks (esp auto-loaders) could have guns loaded.  Even if the EBRs were NOT loaded, their stay-spotted times are long enough for their ally arty to begin to line-up on targets and be pre-aimed when the EBR bobs again and re-spots.  The spotted enemies, by being deprived of those extra 5 - 10 seconds at spawn, lose the chance to disperse, get to cover so their locations are not known, etc.  Any non-wheelie that attempts to duplicate the EBR tactic (now quite common, btw) do so at their own risk, a risk the EBRs do not have due to the game model exploit.  Note, that the "guns-unloaded" start was a designer decision to prevent opening rounds fired onto the spawn point in a game exploit, but it has now created ANOTHER game exploit that previously did not exist.  

 

Note also, that the EBRs in that tactic, even if no damage is done, acquire valuable enemy deployment intel at no risk, whereas other LTs that tried to do so would get less intel (more deployment time) and would acquire it at substantial risk.  The risk delta is a game exploit artifact.

 

4) Aiming at a point on a wheelie at any range is meaningless.  No matter what one's dispersion is, where a shot hits (or misses) at the long range on a target moving as fast as a wheelie and bobbing about vertically with terrain ripples is pure RNG.  One can improve the odds some, but hitting at draw range is wild luck.  Hell, I've tried plenty of times with good guns pre-aimed at choke points and still only rarely get a hit, very rarely.  Give me tungsten cored shells in HMGs spitting a few hundred RPM, and things would be different. 

 

5) Some of this is fair, and some of it is not.  For example, no careful driver can wave away gravity for falls, as many example videos have shown happen in game.

 

Again, wheelies achieve a great % of their successes due not to their vehicles or player skills, but from exploiting the limitations of the game model and data transmission.  And that is not fair to the rest of the players.  It is sufficiently annoying that those players may well leave the game as you did.   I am still here, but I now play less and almost entirely Tiers 6 and 7 to minimize my exposure to wheelies.  Also, I have not spent one cent on the game since the wheelies came out, nor will I until/unless they are fixed to my satisfaction.

 

 So, it becomes a business decision.   Their game. their call.


Edited by jeb2, Jun 29 2020 - 13:38.


1ll #62 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 03:10

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@jeb2

 

Yes, good discussion.

 

1) The view range of the EBRs is not appreciably higher than tier II.  The good tanks in Tier II have a 320M view range.  The EBR 105 curently sits at 350, the EBR 75 at a truly woeful 310M.  This is completely counter to the historical role of these tanks, which was lightly armored, very fast, hard-hitting recon (not scouting, which is different).  Scouting just assesses if an enemy is in an area or quietly monitor its movements.  Recon is to assess the enemy disposition and take out any isolated targets that might be a threat to the greater force, including heavy tanks, artillery emplacements, etc.

 

2)  Cover is not a defense against being spotted.  It is a defense against getting hit.  The core problem is that people are just mindlessly driving for the first 60-90 seconds to some cage match agreed upon by meta  checking their texts in boredom.  The EBR showing up is a sign they need to start using cover effectively right out of the gate.  At least the EBR has the decency to announce itself by getting spotted tooling around. 

 

"Too-fast" and "getting 50M closer than it should be able to" are arbitrary thresholds.  Practical speed is limited in WoT by the (in)ability to usefully control it.  EBR 105s that clown it at high speed eventually run into something and explode, or get hung up and shot, just like QuickyBaby did in his video.  Also, "50M closer" is a liability because they are larger target to hit.  Any EBR or wheeled vehicle that gets close to my heavy tank early on gets whacked, which I greatly enjoy, and I'm quantitatively a terrible heavy tank player.  I particularly like when the EBR shows up early when I am in my heavy tank because I have lots off buddies around to protect my tender flanks.

 

3a) Map size is a problem of map size.  There should be no 800x800 maps anymore because all the high tier vehicles, not just EBRs, have view ranges and dispersion/firing characteristics that make these maps way too small.  TDs can fire across the entire map with enormous damage.  Most of the artillery doesn't even have to move in the slightest. The smaller maps should be removed, limited to low tiers, or expanded in size.

 

3b) I thought your original point was that the tanks couldn't defend themselves when the EBR arrived because the defending tanks weren't loaded yet.  This sounds like you are concerned the the EBR can show up and do damage because the EBR is loaded.  A global no guns are loaded until 10 seconds into the match, and then are all loaded, regardless of class, fixes this problem, which isn't an EBR problem, but a general fast tank combined with small map size problem.  Even better than messing with the starting load timer though, is that, with no autoaim, it doesn't matter if the EBR is loaded early, because it would have to manually aim its shot or have a very high probability of missing at full speed.

 

3c) I can give you all the deployment intel that an EBR gets in rushing directly to the enemy cap right now:  all the enemy tanks are near their cap, some of them are headed east, some west, and some north/south (on most maps).  To the extent that it does gather anything useful, this is actually a historical role of a recon vehicle.  The question is, can the recon vehicle survive and keep reporting useful information?  The answer as QuickBaby demonstrates is no.  The true scout tanks, on the other hand, can sit there without the enemy even knowing they are there and continue to gather intel and take covered shots, which the EBR is not able to do, especially when the opposing EBRs and light tanks start to push it back.  Most of the arguments like this against the EBR are as if everyone on the defending team is sitting in a heavy tank, but all teams have light tanks and usually EBRs of their own, so if the enemy EBR is keeping you spotted the whole time, look at your own team before blaming the EBR as a class.

 

4) If you aim at a fast target at long range, you have to accept it is going to take a lot of shots to land one.  Even elite snipers don't do well against far off moving targets.  Also, you can't "aim at a choke point" and hit a fast aiming target.  In real life, if you go bird hunting, for example, you don't aim at every bush, hope something pops out, and blam immediately if something does (well, except if you are D ick Cheney).  You wait until it is in the air and then smoothly track it with proper lead.

 

5) The point  of the gravity/physics relief on damage is that in real life the driver would not follow a commander's order to drive off a cliff, but in WoT there is one guy doing all the things with a 2D rectangle and a mouse keyboard, so this helps with that limitation.  I've seen a lot of EBRs go off cliffs and hills in training grounds and they blow up appropriately when they go off something suitably high.

 

My point is figure out the real underlying problem and fix that underlying problem.  If it is map size, fix map size.  If it is autoaim, which it is, and for all tanks, not just the EBR, remove autoaim. The proposed statistical tweaks to the EBR don't address the fundamental problems that really have nothing to do with the EBR and will just leave everyone unhappy - EBR drivers and EBR haters, because they punish the drivers and won't satisfy the haters.  What the EBRs really need is a buff on view range and gun penetration and what the game needs is the removal of autoaim, and then all is good.  Silly EBR clowns will be dead having provided no damage and nothing useful if the opposing team is playing effectively with cover.  Those of us who play the EBR as an actual fast positioning recon vehicle will be able to

 

To me, given the people getting into the game today, the business decision looks like either nerf the EBRs statistically and piss off the new growth and satisfy no one, or figure out a better way like dropping autoaim universally, which no one can complain about because it affects all tanks.  My money backs no EBR-specific nerf.   I agree it is their call.


Edited by 1ll, Jun 30 2020 - 03:13.


jeb2 #63 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 03:31

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1) I suspect very few Tier 2 tanks have optics, BIA crews, a crew with recon skill, and use food. The streamers crow about how much they can extend the wheelies' view range.

 

2) Your personal experience is yours, of course, but the forums and boards are quite replete with paying customers whose own personal experiences are at odds with yours.

 

3a and b) That is one of my points.  There is no deterrent on small maps for wheeled vehicles doing verrrry early spotting because the spotted tanks are not loaded.  They are benefiting from a hole in the model - an exploit.  Now, activate tank HMGs and that might fix it also.

 

3c) Nope, not buying it.  YMMV.  Note, though, that there are effectively near zero scout tanks when wheeled vehicles are on the map.  That's what I've seen.  That's why so many are unhappy with wheelies.

 

4) The aim part at LR exploits the "no tracking" aspect of wheelies.  Score that LR hit or take that arty splash on a non-wheelie and the vehicle can be tracked to a stop.  Once fully stopped, even if a player pops a kit instantly, it is accelerating from zero again.  It is a viable target when stopped, and then when it slowly build speed again.  Not the wheelies.

 

5) Is it fair that "suitably high" must be a considerably greater height than other vehicles of about the same mass?  The vids document this phenomenon - an exploit side-effect of the wave-off of some other collision forgiveness.

 



1ll #64 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 07:21

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@jeb2

 

1) Anyone who isn't just passing through Tier 2 and likes to play the tier has optics, BIA, and crews with recon skill.  My Tier II crews from the old days are three skills deep, though I don't use food.  Then there is tankgirl95, who plays in Tier I and has 9000 battles in an MS-1.  The EBRs are specifically recon tanks and it makes sense for them to have long view ranges - the AMX 13 57, which is basically the same thing as an EBR 75 with tracks, has a view range of 390.

 

2) If someone has played in a heavy tank all the time and only knows how to brawl on street corners, they will have trouble with tracking an EBR in the open field.  The solution is for them to get better and learn how to fire at a moving target, not to nerf EBRs so the brawlers can continue to play poorly.

  

3) I think we are agreed that some maps are too small.  The stats creep of all high tier tanks has made them too small.  In the short term, make is so that EBRs don't see maps smaller than 1000x1000.  The EBRs aren't exploiting anything - they aren't being given proper space to roam on some small maps.

 

3c) The reason there are few scout tanks is that scout tanks are very difficult to play and the ultimate challenge for true high level players who must enjoy playing in a support role.  Played appropriately, they are WAY more of a threat than even a buffed EBR.  Those blowout matches where you blame your team for being bad and collapsing?  Check the team score tab - if there is an enemy scout tank high in XP, it was no accident.

 

4) If a track link comes off, a tank is going in circles at best.  The EBR tires were specifically made historically to take hits without failure as it was an obvious weakness of the tank to have huge tires that could get hit.  Despite what people think, the EBRs are authentically rendered in all aspects except their view range is too low, their pen is too low, and they have a ridiculous sci-fi sentient computer autoaiming at 95km/h.

 

The proposed wheel damage and statistics changes aren't going to address your concerns nor mine.  We'll  both be unhappy and less likely to play and spend money.  Just because some people clown around in EBRs and die without accomplishing anything significant doesn't mean that all EBR players should be nerfed - the same people clown around in Pz I C and T2 Lights and, based on how many people want to touch my heavy tank with their turrets, heavy tanks as well.  The real problem remains autoaim, with a secondary problem of some maps that have become obsolete for the current high tier game. 


Edited by 1ll, Jun 30 2020 - 07:24.


jeb2 #65 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 12:13

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1ll

 

1) I cannot imagine playing Tier 2 long enough to have the seal clubber level crew experience you cite.  (With crew books, it is possible now, of course.)  Anyone who does that seems to be a deterrent to new players to stay with the game.  I may have played Tiers 2 and 3 for longer than I probably should have, but nothing like that.  I have 338 in my Tier 2 T-45 and 668 in my Tier 3 Toldi because they were the first Premium tanks I ever got and used them as trainers and credit earners - thus they never had crews like that, nor high cost equipment (I used the credits to buy more tanks and buy their researched modules).

 

2) "Get gud" does not work, as far as I can tell from my experience and what I read of others.  I see streamers far better than I will ever be declining even to fire at rampaging EBRs even when they are in LTs themselves, saying it is not worth it unless the EBR driver makes a mistake or there is no choice.

 

3) Yes, too small due to wheelies, and also creep.  FL has the roam room you proselytize and it has become an EBR wasteland to many.  I, for one, have not played it in several cycles now.  Others post that they do, but stop as soon as they can.  YMMV

 

4) I agree with a lot of that, except what happens when a large caliber HE shells detonates of a tire or a non-hull piece.  For example, I hit one EBR square on the nose at 50 m as it straight at my Obj 261.  The 130 mm HE shell took away 400 HPs and he spent the next 10 or so seconds running around me and shooting me 3 or 4 times.  I suspect that any accurate rendering would have had pieces of that vehicle raining down on that map for the next three battles, as a pink aerosol cloud that had been its crew slowly dispersed in the wind.

 

Their autoaim may not be the problem so much as the postulated ability of the hardware to use it.  That is, a slower turret traverse would not allow them to use it.  A limited traverse (Like the Tier 5 with large gun) would also limit it.   More appropriately large in-motion reticle bloom might do it.  Combined, they give them a "steady-cam" autoaim accuracy.



jeb2 #66 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 17:04

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View Post1ll, on Jun 30 2020 - 07:21, said:

@jeb2

 

1) Anyone who isn't just passing through Tier 2 and likes to play the tier has optics, BIA, and crews with recon skill.  My Tier II crews from the old days are three skills deep, though I don't use food.  Then there is tankgirl95, who plays in Tier I and has 9000 battles in an MS-1.  The EBRs are specifically recon tanks and it makes sense for them to have long view ranges - the AMX 13 57, which is basically the same thing as an EBR 75 with tracks, has a view range of 390.

 

2) If someone has played in a heavy tank all the time and only knows how to brawl on street corners, they will have trouble with tracking an EBR in the open field.  The solution is for them to get better and learn how to fire at a moving target, not to nerf EBRs so the brawlers can continue to play poorly.

  

3) I think we are agreed that some maps are too small.  The stats creep of all high tier tanks has made them too small.  In the short term, make is so that EBRs don't see maps smaller than 1000x1000.  The EBRs aren't exploiting anything - they aren't being given proper space to roam on some small maps.

 

3c) The reason there are few scout tanks is that scout tanks are very difficult to play and the ultimate challenge for true high level players who must enjoy playing in a support role.  Played appropriately, they are WAY more of a threat than even a buffed EBR.  Those blowout matches where you blame your team for being bad and collapsing?  Check the team score tab - if there is an enemy scout tank high in XP, it was no accident.

 

4) If a track link comes off, a tank is going in circles at best.  The EBR tires were specifically made historically to take hits without failure as it was an obvious weakness of the tank to have huge tires that could get hit.  Despite what people think, the EBRs are authentically rendered in all aspects except their view range is too low, their pen is too low, and they have a ridiculous sci-fi sentient computer autoaiming at 95km/h.

 

The proposed wheel damage and statistics changes aren't going to address your concerns nor mine.  We'll  both be unhappy and less likely to play and spend money.  Just because some people clown around in EBRs and die without accomplishing anything significant doesn't mean that all EBR players should be nerfed - the same people clown around in Pz I C and T2 Lights and, based on how many people want to touch my heavy tank with their turrets, heavy tanks as well.  The real problem remains autoaim, with a secondary problem of some maps that have become obsolete for the current high tier game. 

 

 

BTW, I encourage you and others to watch:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OglYDWo3MA&feature=emb_logo

 

You only need to watch the replay as he does it, and can skip the intro stuff.  I found it compelling.

 



1ll #67 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 17:04

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@jeb2

 

2) It's perfectly acceptable not to take a shot at an EBR if it's a low probability shot or you aren't spotted.  Otherwise, an EBR visibly tooling around out there isn't a threat if you are in proper cover with good armor orientation.  The EBR will eventually make a terminal mistake.  It's also not worth shooting a VK in the turret if it is facing you hull down.

 

In general, streamers are not good players as they are creating entertainment, not playing to win.  There was one guy, I think Claus Kellerman, who spent an entire match in a bush complaining about EBRs (despite another video where he drove an EBR and said it wasn't a good tank even with top crew) and then concluded that the reason his team lost was because of the EBRs instead of the fact that he sat in the back line in a mobile tank with his hands off the controls the entire match.  The only good thing about the old guard streamers whining about EBRs is it is bringing new people (or people back) to WoT.

 

3) If you take a heavy or medium tank off into a part of large map by itself, you will get destroyed by recon tanks because that is exactly what the EBR was specifically designed to do if it encountered anything that was all by itself on its recon.  The only difference is that it would have been one shot from a line of trees or behind a dune instead off the tank racing around the target with autoaim.  Heavy tanks were designed to fight together on a line.  The core problem in FL is that people are not coordinating.  If you want to roll a heavy, stick with a couple other heavies or a heavy and a recon of your own.

 

You seem to agree that autoaim is part of the problem, but why mess with turret traversal statistics to try to bandaid it?  That's a complicated solution that screws up the base characteristics of the tank for everyone just because some clowns drive it a certain way. Just drop autoaim from the game and we don't have to fudge numbers to make autoaim not work.]

 

P.S.  I watched the replay at the link you posted and that's a perfect demonstration of what we are in violent agreement about.  The proposed changes won't do anything to fix that, but think about how that would have gone if he didn't have autoaim as a game mechanic.  The tanks he autoaimed would have stayed up and fighting unless he slowed down to take shots and his tooling around in the their backfield would eventually have been extinguished, with no other change to the game or EBR stats other than dropping autoaim for everyone.


Edited by 1ll, Jun 30 2020 - 17:20.


jeb2 #68 Posted Jun 30 2020 - 17:37

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If Guido's EBR had slower turret traverse or poorer gun handling under those conditions, he would not have made those hits.

 

2) If you don't shoot, EBRs will active spot you quickly anyway during their Crazy Ivan's (Pierre's?).  Now, if their view range was nerfed at high speed as I originally suggested, that could help.

 

3) In Frontline, you respawn alone.

 

All tanks have autoaim.  Only the wheelies can use it that way due to turret traverse speed, super superior gun handling, and steady cam aim effects (perhaps due to very low up-and-down reticle bloom).



1ll #69 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 02:11

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@jeb2


Equally, if all tanks just didn't have autoaim, including the EBR, Guido wouldn't have made those hits and would have had some spectacular collisions with buildings (and subsequent TD shell in the butt) if he tried to manually aim at that speed.  Problem solved with deletion of some code, which is the best way to refactor and rebalance anything.

 

Autoaim is the game's true cancer because it creates people who can't hit an EBR because they never learned to aim properly since they could use autoaim for difficult situations,and it encourages clown behavior across all tanks, just as much the Pz I C and T2 Light as the EBR. Autoaim is basically an aimbot mod that would be illegal in any other game built right into the game.  Removing autoaim fixes problems at all tiers.

 

2) Actually not opposed to view range diminishing with speed (for all tanks) if view range while not moving was significantly raised on the EBRs to fit their true recon role, but seems overly complicated.  Without autoaim, most of the Crazy Ivan's will stop  because it will be too risky compared to the information gained and get boring.  In Guido's video, he only got away with his Crazy Ivan because he was also damaging and taking out tanks while on full move. 


Edited by 1ll, Jul 01 2020 - 02:15.


jeb2 #70 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 02:16

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I rarely use autoaim, so I would not miss it.

 

The problem is that it dates back to the beginning or soon after.  Thus, I doubt they would delete it.   I agree it would nerf fast tanks firing on the move in most situations.



Tal_Zun #71 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 05:11

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These wheelies just do not make sense. They have a very small hit box and if you hit the wheels, you do not damage the tank, nor slow it down enough to make it worth the effort.

As a previous poster stated. This is not World of Tanks - this is Mario Cart - A 5 year old could play an EBR and not suck. No skill required. No thought involved. Just drive

around using the ridiculous auto-aim and turret traverse to shoot at tanks, who have no way to counter them. 

 

It is obvious that these were never tested. Also, Wargaming Devs, obviously don't really PLAY the game. So have NO clue why people are complaining. 

 

Wargaming will not be getting any more pennies unless they really nerf these stupid vehicles. 

 

I play less and less now and I feel that Wargaming have lost the plot and have 10000000% ruined their game.



jeb2 #72 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 11:29

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View PostTal_Zun, on Jul 01 2020 - 05:11, said:

These wheelies just do not make sense. They have a very small hit box and if you hit the wheels, you do not damage the tank, nor slow it down enough to make it worth the effort.

As a previous poster stated. This is not World of Tanks - this is Mario Cart - A 5 year old could play an EBR and not suck. No skill required. No thought involved. Just drive

around using the ridiculous auto-aim and turret traverse to shoot at tanks, who have no way to counter them. 

 

It is obvious that these were never tested. Also, Wargaming Devs, obviously don't really PLAY the game. So have NO clue why people are complaining. 

 

Wargaming will not be getting any more pennies unless they really nerf these stupid vehicles. 

 

I play less and less now and I feel that Wargaming have lost the plot and have 10000000% ruined their game.

 

They were tested.  I think they were originally even MORE OP.

 

I am confident that WG simply wanted fresh content.  That is, something new and different enough to spur more joiners and retain those who might be getting bored by status quo.

 

They knew that ay change would PO others.  The Q is which effect would be greater.

 

So far, their approach has been like politicians.  Promise change in some undefined future, while hoping to stall anger/reaction and hang on until after re-election.  Then, when eventually forced to do SOMEthing, they try to see how little actual change they can get away with.

 

Then, when some halfway or trivial change is finally made, brag about how responsive they were.  Meanwhile, try distractions (like Equipment 2.0), all the while trying to solicit Campaign donations, er, sell Premium tanks.



_SirFury_ #73 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 15:28

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Any nerf is better than no nerf to the wheelies.  

1ll #74 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 19:26

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View PostTal_Zun, on Jul 01 2020 - 05:11, said:

These wheelies just do not make sense. Just drive around using the ridiculous auto-aim and turret traverse to shoot at tanks, who have no way to counter them. 

 

If you replace "wheelies" with "all really fast tanks" including things that you see early on like the Pz 1 C and T2 Light, your statement is still true.  People will claim that a Pz 1 C and T2 Light can be tracked, but in reality they rarely are as it is difficult for most people, including everyone new to the game, to aim at submodules on a target going that fast.  This it the way we lose the most new players - getting shredded by fast moving auto-aiming auto cannons .  The fundamental problem is that while the fast tank and the static tank can use autoaiim, autoaim doesn't lead the target, so the fast tank is unfairly advantaged when firing at at static target while the static target is unfairly disadvantaged when firing at a fast target.

 

This is completely counter to real physics.  In reality, firing from a fast moving platform at a static target is more difficult than firing from a static platform at a fast moving target.  This is especially true with tanks bouncing across the surface, which is always uneven to some extent.

 

I'm not proposing this as it would be truly awful, but the alternative argument that proves the point is that the other way to solve this is to add lead to autoaim and then all EBRs will die on contact with the enemy.  But then we basically have EVE Online instead of a tank game with any real gunnery skill component. 



jeb2 #75 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 19:39

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View Post1ll, on Jul 01 2020 - 19:26, said:

 

If you replace "wheelies" with "all really fast tanks" including things that you see early on like the Pz 1 C and T2 Light, your statement is still true.  People will claim that a Pz 1 C and T2 Light can be tracked, but in reality they rarely are as it is difficult for most people, including everyone new to the game, to aim at submodules on a target going that fast.  This it the way we lose the most new players - getting shredded by fast moving auto-aiming auto cannons .  The fundamental problem is that while the fast tank and the static tank can use autoaiim, autoaim doesn't lead the target, so the fast tank is unfairly advantaged when firing at at static target while the static target is unfairly disadvantaged when firing at a fast target.

 

This is completely counter to real physics.  In reality, firing from a fast moving platform at a static target is more difficult than firing from a static platform at a fast moving target.  This is especially true with tanks bouncing across the surface, which is always uneven to some extent.

 

I'm not proposing this as it would be truly awful, but the alternative argument that proves the point is that the other way to solve this is to add lead to autoaim and then all EBRs will die on contact with the enemy.  But then we basically have EVE Online instead of a tank game with any real gunnery skill component. 

 

I agree with much of that.

 

However, note that arty in the wheelie tiers have substantial splash diameters, while arty facing the low tier ones you cited do not.  Thus, a Pz IC style tank at wheelie tiers would still be tracked by arty, whereas the wheelies themselves are not.



GoArmyBeatnavy79 #76 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 21:01

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View Postjeb2, on Jul 01 2020 - 11:29, said:

 

They were tested.  I think they were originally even MORE OP.

 

I am confident that WG simply wanted fresh content.  That is, something new and different enough to spur more joiners and retain those who might be getting bored by status quo.

 

They knew that ay change would PO others.  The Q is which effect would be greater.

 

So far, their approach has been like politicians.  Promise change in some undefined future, while hoping to stall anger/reaction and hang on until after re-election.  Then, when eventually forced to do SOMEthing, they try to see how little actual change they can get away with.

 

Then, when some halfway or trivial change is finally made, brag about how responsive they were.  Meanwhile, try distractions (like Equipment 2.0), all the while trying to solicit Campaign donations, er, sell Premium tanks.

 

So true, like politicians, well said.

(Side note, Trump is not a politician...)



1ll #77 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 22:02

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View PostArclight58, on Jul 01 2020 - 15:28, said:

Any nerf is better than no nerf to the wheelies.  

 

If you dislike facing EBRs, you should be especially against the proposed changes because once they are done, that will be it.   They  can't be nerfed again if we want to hold onto whatever player base is left.  The problems will still remain because the proposed changes don't address the real underlying problem that is frustrating everyone who doesn't like EBRs.   This is one of the rare cases where both people who like EBRs and people who dislike EBRs have common ground and should lobby Wargaming to fix the fundamental game issues of autoaim and some too-small maps for higher tiers, while restoring proper view range and pen to the EBRs so they have an incentive not to be played as clown cars.

 

Otherwise, this proposed change will just make EBR people stop playing because their tank was nerfed and anti-EBR people stop playing because it wasn't nerfed enough, whereas no one can complain if autoaim is universally removed as a game mechanic and tanks of higher tiers don't see too-small maps.



jeb2 #78 Posted Jul 01 2020 - 22:39

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View Post1ll, on Jul 01 2020 - 22:02, said:

 

If you dislike facing EBRs, you should be especially against the proposed changes because once they are done, that will be it.   They  can't be nerfed again if we want to hold onto whatever player base is left.  The problems will still remain because the proposed changes don't address the real underlying problem that is frustrating everyone who doesn't like EBRs.   This is one of the rare cases where both people who like EBRs and people who dislike EBRs have common ground and should lobby Wargaming to fix the fundamental game issues of autoaim and some too-small maps for higher tiers, while restoring proper view range and pen to the EBRs so they have an incentive not to be played as clown cars.

 

Otherwise, this proposed change will just make EBR people stop playing because their tank was nerfed and anti-EBR people stop playing because it wasn't nerfed enough, whereas no one can complain if autoaim is universally removed as a game mechanic and tanks of higher tiers don't see too-small maps.

 

Sadly, I fear this is all very, very likely.



RagnarokBazil #79 Posted Jul 02 2020 - 02:25

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View PostKRZYBooP, on Jun 24 2020 - 08:44, said:

Howdy Boom Jockeys!

 

During the stream with the developers, we announced that we are working on the rebalancing for wheeled vehicles. Today we want to talk about the planned changes. 

Description of the Problem

One of the key problems for most players is that the wheeled vehicles survive for too long despite being under massive enemy fire while actively spotting. This is due to both their small size and their high mobility and dynamics. Another aspect is that the wheeled vehicles are almost impossible to immobilize because they do not stop when their suspension is damaged. Instead, they simply slow down a little. The effect of damaged wheels on vehicle dynamics is relatively low. For a noticeable effect, several wheels should be damaged.

All this creates a situation in which a player, in order to effectively engage a wheeled vehicle, should fully focus on a single objective at the cost of ignoring other aspects of the battle or forgetting other missions. A small window for causing damage, the difficulty of making an accurate shot, and other random factors make destroying a wheeled vehicle a non-trivial task. If we assume that the opponent is a very experienced player who can maximize all the advantages of a wheeled vehicle, then it becomes very difficult to counter this vehicle type.

In order to balance the wheeled vehicles and reduce their survivability, we want to do the following: 

  • Increase the effect of damage to the suspension to cause the vehicle's behavior to change, slowing it down
  • Slightly reduce the characteristics of the imbalanced vehicles by reducing their firepower and mobility

 

 

Adjusting the Mechanics

We want to approach the problem described above from two directions. First, we’ll make changes to the mechanics of causing damage to wheels. Previously, a damaged wheel affected only the dynamics, not the current speed, of the vehicle. So if you kept moving without losing speed, the damaged wheels wouldn't affect the behavior of the vehicle too much. But if you slowed down (for example, when making a quick turn), the damaged wheels would cause lower dynamics, making it more difficult to build up speed again.

We want to test the adjustment of this mechanic. Now, if the wheels are damaged, both vehicle dynamics and speed will noticeably decrease. Damage to a drive wheel will reduce the overall power of the vehicle, and damage to a traction wheel will affect the speed. Considering that almost all wheeled vehicles in the game have all-wheel drive, damage to any wheel (both retracted and lowered) will cause a reduction in dynamics. However, the speed of the vehicle will decrease only when the damaged wheels are currently touching the ground.

Moreover, damage to the first wheel will have the greatest impact on the vehicle's speed and dynamics. For each subsequently damaged wheel, the overall effect will increase, but less abruptly.

 

A simple example: The Panhard EBR 105 moves at a speed of 95 km/h. After taking damage to the first wheel, it quickly loses speed to 68 km/h. And after taking damage to another wheel, the speed drops to 52 km/h. This will make the vehicle much more vulnerable, thereby reducing its chance of survival when under heavy enemy fire.

 

Rebalancing Technical Characteristics

The second aspect of the test changes to the wheeled vehicles is the rebalance of their technical characteristics. We want to slightly decrease the gun handling parameters, as well as the acceleration and top speed of some vehicles.

Our goal is to maintain the distinctive gameplay of wheeled vehicles without causing them to resemble a branch of tracked light tanks. We expect that a small decrease in the technical characteristics, in combination with the change to the mechanic of causing damage to the wheels, will have a sufficient effect on reducing the battle performance of these vehicles.

 

You can find the list of changes below. Please note that the adjustments are not final.

 

Panhard EBR 105

    Dispersion during movement: 0.06 -> 0.08

    Dispersion on hull traverse: 0.06 -> 0.08

    Dispersion on turret traverse: 0.03 -> 0.04

    Aiming time: 1.2 -> 1.4

    View range: 350 -> 340

    Engine power: 750 -> 720

    Top speed in Rapid mode: 95 -> 91

    Reverse speed in Rapid mode: 70 -> 65

    Chance of engine fire: 0.1 -> 0.15

 

Panhard EBR 90

    Forward speed in the Rapid mode: 85 -> 83

    Reverse speed in the Rapid mode: 85 -> 83

    Engine power (top): 580 -> 560

Conclusion

We believe that such changes will affect the overall performance of wheeled vehicles in battles. The role of the vehicles won't change. They'll remain effective at active scouting, but they'll cause less damage to enemies (especially from a distance) and lose a little from their dynamics and top speed. You'll have to play more carefully in these vehicles, and the consequences of taking damage will be more serious than they are now.

 

Please note that this is only the first test iteration of the planned changes. Note that all the above adjustments are not final. We look forward to your feedback!

 

 

just make the wheels be vauled of 10mm of spaced armor.. heat gets eaten up.. he splashes it.. hesh pens it, then if it hits the armor it pens it.. if the shell misses the hull it splashes the tank.. ap pens it and deals damage.. . same for apcr... gun nerfs okay thats fine its a scout not a medium view range? it barely has any... to even get to 445+ you need food + all the view range perks and bond gear.. thats 9k+ bonds here..... keep the top speed on it.. keep the horse power.. the wheel popping is a nerf strong enough.. everything else is over doing it.. Why play tech tree tanks if your only going to nerf it.. Im not going to bother to grind other lines..Oh wait premium tanks.. that is what your trying to do.. god dammit wg please stop..



1ll #80 Posted Jul 02 2020 - 02:52

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View Postjeb2, on Jul 01 2020 - 22:39, said:

 

Sadly, I fear this is all very, very likely.

 

Wargaming said they were listening to feedback and we had a really good discussion in this thread.

 

Hopefully they will notice that a person who is passionately against EBRs and another who is passionately for EBRs thinking deeply about it are in broad agreement that the problems are more fundamental than some wheel changes and statistical tweaks to the EBRs, and are both not enthusiastic about the proposed changes.

 

My view is that dropping autoaim from the game and some map restrictions are such a simple change they should at least be tested first before implementing all the other more complicated stuff.







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