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+2/-2MM

Matchmaker Improvement

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M4Shermanmaster #1 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 20:22

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I hardley ever post on the forum, but here it goes.

 

Something needs to change with the matchmaker +2/-2 doesnt work. The idea of +2/-2 is fine, but teams need to be balanced better. I pick Playing tier 6 against tier 8 as an example as I believe +2 is at its worst in these tier spreads. Tier six tanks are overwhelmed by tier 8ts which are better in almost every way. I played tier 6 today in my sherman jumbo. Not necessarly a meta tank, but one of my favourites in the game. as i played, I was matched against tier 8ts frequently, but I thought I would just avoid those top tiers and pick on the other teams tier 6/7 tanks. In other forum responses I see the common answer that tier 6 tanks shouldnt fight directly against tier 8ts, but should support the team and take out the lower tanks. This however never works out. In my experience of +2/-2MM, the team starts the game and heads to the zone that is common to its tank type, IE heavy tanks go to a choke point and Tds find a bush. The game is them played forward from then with both teams trading shots and maneuvering to get better places. Often however, the three tier 8ts at the top of your team are different from those of the other team. many games one team will have one more TD, HT or MT, which is the cause of the problem. In one of my games our top 3 were a Lowe, T32 and m35 arty. The other team had a Is3, Lorr 40T and a bat chat arty. This is where the problem starts. The t32 and the lowe go to the heavy flank, where there is now more t8 heavies there on one team then the other. The is3 is the only t8 heavy from his team, and now must rely on tier 7 and 6 heavies to help him. The game goes down hill from there. The is3 and the tier seven heavy t29 are forced to take the brunt of the opposition as they are the only one who can trade shots with the other tanks tier 8ts, as the tier 6 heavys on their team lack the pen and armour to assist. Tier seven heavys on the other team assist their two tier 8ts, and they quickly focus take out the is3. With the is3 gone, the two tier 8ts and their support erase the t29 and the supporting tier 6s and 7s are obliterated as they cannot compete with their tier 8 counterparts. This is the problem with +2./-2 The Match maker is random and once in a while the tanks arnt equally split between teams. Unless your in a very strong position, the moment your top tiers are gone, you are screwed. in +1/-1 MM, a tier 7 tank may be weaker compared to the tier 8, but it stands a better chance in fending off the tier 8 as its stats are closer. 

 

In short, it is very hard for bottom tier tanks to make up for the loss of a top tier one, and if the classes are missmached between teams (Ex, teams have the same amount of heavies but one has 3 tier 8ts and one has 2) It is very easy for one team to dominate a flank and push for the win.

 

I think this needs to happen.

The Matchmaker needs to be set +1/-1 except for times where server population is low and people are waiting for a while.This would solve the problem because the bottom tier tanks would be able to have a bigger influence on the outcome because they would be able to contest the top tiers and if the situation calls for it, make up for the loss of a high tier vehicle. while this would be nice, I doubt it will happen.

 

The second possibility. All vehicles need to be sorted by how they are played and the class. The match maker should never put a 279E against the Amx 50B. The two tanks are very different and in terms of balance, the one tank is at a major disadvantage. I think tanks should be matched by class, but add sub classes to help. although the tech tree shows the AMX and Obj as both Heavies, the match maker should see them differently, and match them up with tanks that play simmilarly. As an example tanks like the mause and type 5 would be put in the MM as sub class "SuperHeavies" and should be matched against simmilar tanks such as the E100. The same would apply to matching vulnerable sniper tds with other snipers and Assualt Tds with other heavier turetless tds. we could even make a subclass for heavy medium tanks or light heavies, heck we should probably seperate the cars and the lights in the matchmaker also. 

 

While i think option 1 is the easiest, i think option two would be better for the community, and would make the game a lot more enjoyable knowing that the tanks your playing against are suited simmilarly to yours.

 

Anyways this is just an idea, which as of now is being shared. Id totally understand if others oppose this as everyone has their opinions, but if you have any ideas you might as well share them below.

 

Thanks guys/girls, hopefully my writing didnt bore you.

 

 

 

 


Edited by M4Shermanmaster, Sep 15 2020 - 22:25.


minneerminneer #2 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 20:31

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To big of a wall of text and people have been saying +2 -2 needs to go.  It was even better when you could be the only tier 6 in a lt in a tier 10 game.  But +2 mm with power creep how it is needs to go.

golruul #3 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 20:52

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Because of the huge population of tier 8 premiums, tier 6 has been getting screwed by tier 8 since the beginning.  There have been loads of complaints about this over the years (including me about 7 years ago documenting this). 

 

Nothing has ever happened.  Nothing will ever happen.

 

Only way of dealing with this is to get out of tier 6 as soon as possible.



TheJeep1 #4 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 21:01

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No, you play tier 6 and even if you are in a game with tier 8's you write like the whole team is tier 8.  Total garbage.  Find a way to contribute.  Tier 8's see a heck of a lot more tier 10's then 6 sees 8.  Other team has the same line up. 

 

There are many many tactics a lower tier tank can use to be productive.  Learn some.

 

Also how is +2 ok but not -2, don't they go hand in hand?  How do you get a on a team where your +2 and others are not -2?


Edited by TheJeep1, Sep 15 2020 - 21:04.


rockbutcher #5 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 21:39

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View PostTheJeep1, on Sep 15 2020 - 16:01, said:

No, you play tier 6 and even if you are in a game with tier 8's you write like the whole team is tier 8.  Total garbage.  Find a way to contribute.  Tier 8's see a heck of a lot more tier 10's then 6 sees 8.  Other team has the same line up. 

 

There are many many tactics a lower tier tank can use to be productive.  Learn some.

 

Also how is +2 ok but not -2, don't they go hand in hand?  How do you get a on a team where your +2 and others are not -2?

Love that.  When I read what he wrote I did the "dog who doesn't understand his master" head tilt. 

 

At the end of the day, the game is filled with players who would rather drive around the battlefield with impunity, destroying all before them yet not understanding how totally imbalanced that would be.



wayne_1313 #6 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 21:46

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Anything at Tier 7 and below is cannon fodder for Tier 8 thru 10

ThePigSheFlies #7 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 21:56

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I legitimately miss the original Chaffee, ELC Amx and T-50-2 that all saw tier 10s as a tier 5 LT.

 

The potential for xp was an amazing opportunity that sadly too many boiled turnips could never see due to the tears of being bottom tier clouding their vision...



M4Shermanmaster #8 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 22:16

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View PostTheJeep1, on Sep 15 2020 - 21:01, said:

No, you play tier 6 and even if you are in a game with tier 8's you write like the whole team is tier 8.  Total garbage.  Find a way to contribute.  Tier 8's see a heck of a lot more tier 10's then 6 sees 8.  Other team has the same line up. 

 

There are many many tactics a lower tier tank can use to be productive.  Learn some.

 

Also how is +2 ok but not -2, don't they go hand in hand?  How do you get a on a team where your +2 and others are not -2?

I didn't mean to put it that way.  when I'm in -2 MM someone else is getting the +2MM shaft regardless of the tier. I never meant to give the impression -2 was fine, because -2 is just +2 but your the unstoppable beast. I write that way because the game in +2/-2 is decided by your top tier tanks.  I can include the rest of the tanks in my discussion, but they're not the focus of my point, which is that tier 6 tanks in a tier 8 game or tier 8 tanks in a tier 10 game or any configuration of +2/-2, the tank in the bottom is pretty much helpless if it somehow ends up face to face against a +2 tier tank with no support. There are tactics you can employ to out play a high tier tank, I don't doubt that, but for every time you can sneak away, bounce that lucky shot, or get that extra pen how often are you unable to do so?

View Postrockbutcher, on Sep 15 2020 - 21:39, said:

Love that.  When I read what he wrote I did the "dog who doesn't understand his master" head tilt. 

 

At the end of the day, the game is filled with players who would rather drive around the battlefield with impunity, destroying all before them yet not understanding how totally imbalanced that would be.


Once again I didn't mean having the ability to play with impunity with my argument. I don't think its healthy for the game, yet the majority of the player base wants to do just that and look where that has got us. Super heavy tanks no one can pen without gold, corridors maps that reduce flanking, light tanks got nerfed in 9.18 because heavies didn't like getting outplayed. I will admit that its nice to be in a  -2 game, but id take away that ability to only see +1. 

I didn't intend for that message in my writing. My apologies

 

 


Edited by M4Shermanmaster, Sep 15 2020 - 22:27.


Cougarraid #9 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 22:49

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This is the main reason I gravitate towards medium tanks: what's the use of driving a super heavy if you end up two tiers lower and neither your armor nor your pen can hold up. You become a lumbering HP pinata for the top tiers. I'd rather have some mobility so that I can flank and actually be able to pen tanks that are two tiers higher than me.

 

However some of my best games have been as bottom tier: there's a lot of xp potential there. And I think it's valuable to learn how to position your bottom tier vehicle to still be able to contribute, by supporting your top tiers. Yes, you sometimes just can't be as influential, but you can generally find a way to support your top tier tanks so that they don't get focused and killed early leaving you overwhelmable.

 

It is what it is. Could be better, could be worse. I make the most of it.



M4Shermanmaster #10 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 23:04

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View PostCougarraid, on Sep 15 2020 - 22:49, said:

This is the main reason I gravitate towards medium tanks: what's the use of driving a super heavy if you end up two tiers lower and neither your armor nor your pen can hold up. You become a lumbering HP pinata for the top tiers. I'd rather have some mobility so that I can flank and actually be able to pen tanks that are two tiers higher than me.

 

However some of my best games have been as bottom tier: there's a lot of xp potential there. And I think it's valuable to learn how to position your bottom tier vehicle to still be able to contribute, by supporting your top tiers. Yes, you sometimes just can't be as influential, but you can generally find a way to support your top tier tanks so that they don't get focused and killed early leaving you overwhelmable.

 

It is what it is. Could be better, could be worse. I make the most of it.

 

Yeah I see what you mean. Like I continue to play my tier 6s because I like them and once in a while you do get some really good games. There isn't anything you can do, and to be honest this thread was made because I needed to vent after getting wiped off the face of the earth by some tier 8ts. all in all there is always something you could've done to make an impact and I agree with everything you said. Thank you good sir



Whistling_Death_ #11 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 23:26

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Whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, ad nauseum.  Good grief.  It gets so old.



The_Pink_Panther #12 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 23:27

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I believe it's about time for Preferential MM for all tank.  In other word +1/-1.  It's an idea, who's time has come and it would be much preferable to many of the past suggestions that I have seen over the last 9 or so last years.  Personally, I can live with all the problems associated with this as it would greatly reduce the disparity of vehicles that a +2/-2 bring to the table every time MM spins up to create a battle.

The_Pink_Panther #13 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 23:27

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View PostWhistling_Death_, on Sep 15 2020 - 16:26, said:

Whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, whine, moan, belly-ache, cry, complain, ad nauseum.  Good grief.  It gets so old.


Funny thing, you've done your share just like the rest of us.  :trollface:



TheJeep1 #14 Posted Sep 15 2020 - 23:45

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View PostM4Shermanmaster, on Sep 15 2020 - 13:16, said:

 

I didn't mean to put it that way.  when I'm in -2 MM someone else is getting the +2MM shaft regardless of the tier. I never meant to give the impression -2 was fine, because -2 is just +2 but your the unstoppable beast. I write that way because the game in +2/-2 is decided by your top tier tanks.  I can include the rest of the tanks in my discussion, but they're not the focus of my point, which is that tier 6 tanks in a tier 8 game or tier 8 tanks in a tier 10 game or any configuration of +2/-2, the tank in the bottom is pretty much helpless if it somehow ends up face to face against a +2 tier tank with no support. There are tactics you can employ to out play a high tier tank, I don't doubt that, but for every time you can sneak away, bounce that lucky shot, or get that extra pen how often are you unable to do so?


Once again I didn't mean having the ability to play with impunity with my argument. I don't think its healthy for the game, yet the majority of the player base wants to do just that and look where that has got us. Super heavy tanks no one can pen without gold, corridors maps that reduce flanking, light tanks got nerfed in 9.18 because heavies didn't like getting outplayed. I will admit that its nice to be in a  -2 game, but id take away that ability to only see +1. 

I didn't intend for that message in my writing. My apologies

 

 


Lets just stick with the tier6 example for simplicity.

 

You have the "possibility" of facing off against a tier 8, after all their are only 3 of them.  If you're unlucky, you run into all 3 of them at once and die, oh well, too bad for you.  But usually and generally speaking that is rare, unless you're some sort of yolotard. 

 

What I personally try to do is creep around looking for a match, not taking too many risks for the first 5-7 mins.  Mid and end game the higher tiers have beat up enough on each other that you can now be more aggressive with your full HP tier 6, working side and rear shots.  This is nothing new, might be new to you, but anyone who is semi good typically, in a typical game, will do the same.  Now this isnt to say, you will get to this end game experience, some games are just destine to be one sided, for too many reasons to be listed now.

 

But the bottom line is, as always, everyone has the same MM, so why is it affecting you more then others?



M4Shermanmaster #15 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 00:30

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View PostTheJeep1, on Sep 15 2020 - 23:45, said:


Lets just stick with the tier6 example for simplicity.

 

You have the "possibility" of facing off against a tier 8, after all their are only 3 of them.  If you're unlucky, you run into all 3 of them at once and die, oh well, too bad for you.  But usually and generally speaking that is rare, unless you're some sort of yolotard. 

 

What I personally try to do is creep around looking for a match, not taking too many risks for the first 5-7 mins.  Mid and end game the higher tiers have beat up enough on each other that you can now be more aggressive with your full HP tier 6, working side and rear shots.  This is nothing new, might be new to you, but anyone who is semi good typically, in a typical game, will do the same.  Now this isnt to say, you will get to this end game experience, some games are just destine to be one sided, for too many reasons to be listed now.

 

But the bottom line is, as always, everyone has the same MM, so why is it affecting you more then others?

 

I think I may have been mistaken in my argument and can agree with almost everything you've said. sometimes its just luck, you get hunted down and have no where to go. I think I may have been mistaken in that MM is the problem. However I still think that there some points that still have to be taken into account. Creeping around and trying to get shots in is a good strategy, but a flawed one in the current meta. most maps are corridors which funnel you into frontal encounters with other tanks, especially high armour ones. in some maps it is quite impossible to get a rear or side shot unless the target is in some open and undefended area, which is rare because of how cautious everyone is. Take abbey for example, the heavy way is very corridorish, and usually ends up stalemating. low tier heavy tanks lack the maneuverability to flank a tank and pen to put a hole through him frontally. that flank really just becomes a shot trade sector between high tier tanks until one of them dies and the flank can push. If im a tier 6 heavy, im not going to the other flanks because of lack of protection, and creeping around really isnt possible in that space. I could look for another area of attack, but in that map especially there isnt many and if I sit back and wait and my tier 8 tanks die im kinda. in a medium tank you have more maneuverability, and if your in a open map, you have room to look for other areas of attack. however even though there is no physical corridors, enemy Tds have more lines of sight, and there is a high chance you will be spotted while making your move, and most likely get shot. For every other class its rock paper sizzors where every move you make against one tank is defended by another on his team, and really I cant complain about that because thats how the game was designed. So I think I was wrong about MM being the problem, It probably more has to do with the bad map designs, campy TD positions with hard and soft cover, armour you cant pen without premimum and other factors. However I still feel that with +1/-1MM, you dont face as many tanks that are unstoppable, its easier to make up for a lost tank on your team and you wont be killed in 1 or 2 shots as often. I wouldnt say MM is affecting me more then others and Im sure it happens to everyone,  It just frustrates me to have a game where you think you are playing well, but there is a tank you cant compete with that takes you out with little effort, and im sure it happens to everyone.

 

And ill say right now that I am no unicum, Im a pretty casual player who likes his american medium tanks of all tiers, Id just like the games to be a bit closer and play against tanks that you can fight against, not against tanks that see you as a credit and exp pinata 


Edited by M4Shermanmaster, Sep 16 2020 - 00:36.


2MOEJOE #16 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 00:45

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View PostM4Shermanmaster, on Sep 15 2020 - 18:30, said:

 

I think I may have been mistaken in my argument and can agree with almost everything you've said. sometimes its just luck, you get hunted down and have no where to go. I think I may have been mistaken in that MM is the problem. However I still think that there some points that still have to be taken into account. Creeping around and trying to get shots in is a good strategy, but a flawed one in the current meta. most maps are corridors which funnel you into frontal encounters with other tanks, especially high armour ones. in some maps it is quite impossible to get a rear or side shot unless the target is in some open and undefended area, which is rare because of how cautious everyone is. Take abbey for example, the heavy way is very corridorish, and usually ends up stalemating. low tier heavy tanks lack the maneuverability to flank a tank and pen to put a hole through him frontally. that flank really just becomes a shot trade sector between high tier tanks until one of them dies and the flank can push. If im a tier 6 heavy, im not going to the other flanks because of lack of protection, and creeping around really isnt possible in that space. I could look for another area of attack, but in that map especially there isnt many and if I sit back and wait and my tier 8 tanks die im kinda. in a medium tank you have more maneuverability, and if your in a open map, you have room to look for other areas of attack. however even though there is no physical corridors, enemy Tds have more lines of sight, and there is a high chance you will be spotted while making your move, and most likely get shot. For every other class its rock paper sizzors where every move you make against one tank is defended by another on his team, and really I cant complain about that because thats how the game was designed. So I think I was wrong about MM being the problem, It probably more has to do with the bad map designs, campy TD positions with hard and soft cover, armour you cant pen without premimum and other factors. However I still feel that with +1/-1MM, you dont face as many tanks that are unstoppable, its easier to make up for a lost tank on your team and you wont be killed in 1 or 2 shots as often. I wouldnt say MM is affecting me more then others and Im sure it happens to everyone,  It just frustrates me to have a game where you think you are playing well, but there is a tank you cant compete with that takes you out with little effort, and im sure it happens to everyone.

 

And ill say right now that I am no unicum, Im a pretty casual player who likes his american medium tanks of all tiers, Id just like the games to be a bit closer and play against tanks that you can fight against, not against tanks that see you as a credit and exp pinata 

The simple truth is tier VI tanks dont stack up against  tier VIII tanks just like tier VIII tanks dont stack up against  tier X tanks I dont care what these guys say.3 4 years ago when the mm was better sure the battles were more balanced hell I had 2800 battle in my Cromwell and 2000 in my B it was so fun not anymore.Its funny reading barely green players say what's your problem and purple guys saying oh man just pick your battles suuuuuure buddy.I dont know what to tell you maybe get a tier X and derp around like 3/4 of the player base does anyway there is no fix WGs has ruined the game.


Edited by 2MOEJOE, Sep 16 2020 - 00:46.


CorporalUpham #17 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 03:00

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+2/-2 is so WG can rig the global win rate at around 50%, bringing up bad players and knocking down good players.

I_QQ_4_U #18 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 04:35

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Don't really have a problem with +2 MM anymore since they made the MM so much better. Don't mind being bottom tier sometimes, allows you to rack up some good XP and coin, wasn't so much fun when you were bottom tier most of the time. Certainly a lot better than +5 was.

minneerminneer #19 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 06:26

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View PostCorporalUpham, on Sep 16 2020 - 03:00, said:

+2/-2 is so WG can rig the global win rate at around 50%, bringing up bad players and knocking down good players.

Hahaha wg rigging hahaha ha ph wait... you're actually serious oh God someone call a psych ward we have a new patient showing signs of deliousion.  Yes put him right there next to the flat earthen and the trump supporter he will fit right in.



awildseaking #20 Posted Sep 16 2020 - 09:12

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What you pointed out is moreso a problem with 3/5/7 than +/-2. A small number of people need to play well and you can't make up for them. We all have our fair share of criticism about +/-2, but I honestly want the pre-template MM back. I used to complain about games where I was the lone T6 in a mostly T7-8 game. I thought it wasn't fair that I had to spam gold, but in retrospect, you end up doing that a lot of the time regardless of tier. What I miss about the old MM is that people couldn't afford to focus me if I was the lone tank two tiers down. It's just common sense; aiming a Chi-to with no armor, 150 pen and 130 alpha in a mostly T8 game means giving my 14 other teammates a chance to out-trade you. Back then, I struggled a lot since I didn't have good crews or equipment. I didn't realize that was the #1 reason I was playing so poorly. Today, I would play much better in the old MM because being bottom tier would give me freedom and flexibility. If I'm bottom tier today, 3 people determine every single game. Once they're out, the top tiers can afford to bully me because there aren't larger threats.

 

There are a million problems with templates and I usually sound like a broken record, but even if all the problems were eliminated today, I would still want old MM back out of basic fairness. The less my tank matters, the more I matter.


Edited by awildseaking, Sep 16 2020 - 09:14.





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