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Top Using Stat Insults. Because Stats are Lagging, Uncertain, Baseless, Irrelevant.

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Siege_Engine #1 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 22:53

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I saw a big argument last night between players who were using stats to insult each other's gameplay.  Why?  Stats are an empty insult.  

 

First, I've already analyzed in another thread that win rate is a lagging indicator.  It doesn't become relevant until after about 1,000 battles.  So, it's not going to show what's happening, today, unless it's for known for sure that a player has not gotten better or worse during their last 1,000 battles.  

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/622090-why-the-win-rate-stat-is-bogus-with-my-example/page__fromsearch__1

 

Second, it's not certain that other stats like WN8, Average Damage, and Average Experience relate to Win Rate -- as can be seen in the graphs (attached).  My WN8, Average Damage, and Average Experience have all steadily increased.  Yet my Win Rate has randomly oscillated to finally end up -- a little lower than where it began.  If there's a correlation, or not, who can say that it actually relates to any cause and effect?  

https://wotlabs.net/na/player/siege_engine

 

Third, there is broad disagreement about what constitutes stat-padding and even how to define a "cheat".  Without agreement on these issues, then the stats are baseless.   

 

Fourth, there is a lack of relevance.  There isn't any data on my gameplay that shows when I'm drinking lots of frosty beverages, or not.  So my gameplay can't be predicted based on my stats -- even if you know whether I'm drinking frosty beverages.  

 

So, when people in this game insult other's gameplay based on their stats, they are not only being rude but they are also naive of the insignificance of their insults.  

 

Play the game.  Have fun.  Stop the stat insults.  They don't prove you're a better player or a better person.  

 

 

siege-engine-stats.jpg

 

 



2MOEJOE #2 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 22:58

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You are an idiot.

_AveSatanas_ #3 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:06

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Block Quote

 They don't prove you're a better player

 

Except they do. Using a combination of a few different stats (avg tier, winrate, WN8 and avg dmg) will absolutely show how good or bad a player is.



NateRocko #4 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:17

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Does it tell you exactly how a player will play in a battle? No, of course not.

Does it give a general idea though? Yeah, somewhat.


Siege_Engine #5 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:32

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View Post2MOEJOE, on Oct 18 2020 - 22:58, said:

You are an idiot.

 

Haha!  Love it!  



Siege_Engine #6 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:34

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View Post_AveSatanas_, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:06, said:

 

Except they do. Using a combination of a few different stats (avg tier, winrate, WN8 and avg dmg) will absolutely show how good or bad a player is.

 

How so?  I've shown that if you were looking at my increases in all of those stats, you could not predict if my win rate went up, or down.  



Siege_Engine #7 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:36

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View PostNateRocko, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:17, said:

Does it tell you exactly how a player will play in a battle? No, of course not.

Does it give a general idea though? Yeah, somewhat.

 

I would agree in terms of combined direct + assist damage.  It gives a general idea.  I would bet money that a player in a three marked Obj140 is going to rock. 

Perhaps you've got a good point ... where the stats are extreme high or low?  

 

But, for the humps like me, you won't be able to use my stats to predict my next 50 games.  

 


Edited by Siege_Engine, Oct 18 2020 - 23:43.


LT_Moon #8 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:37

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That's why XVM is useless and meaningless. It only exacerbates the situation because the user gives up the game without even trying. If you can use XVM information well, probably you don't need such information.

_AveSatanas_ #9 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:42

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:34, said:

 

How so?  I've shown that if you were looking at my increases in all of those stats, you could not predict if my win rate went up, or down.  

 

Win rate isn't the only stat in existence. Plus, currently your recent WN8 (what really matters) is higher than your overall WN8, and the same goes for your winrate. Recent is higher than overall.



ArmorStorm #10 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:44

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:34, said:

 

How so?  I've shown that if you were looking at my increases in all of those stats, you could not predict if my win rate went up, or down.  


You have CLAIMED something, you have SHOWN what you believe supports your idea and have PROVEN nothing.  



Pipinghot #11 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:44

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

First, I've already analyzed in another thread

Your analysis was filled with flaws and was debunked by multiple people.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

Play the game.

Yes, good idea.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

Have fun.

Yes, good idea.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

Stop the stat insults.

Yes, good idea, but it doesn't go far enough.

 

The corollary to that idea is that people with bad or average stats should stop trying to insult other players for being better at a game than they are and they should stop trying to insult others by inventing fatuous arguments about stats and skills. Stat denying is a form of lying. At best it's self-deception about one's skill at a game, a person who is bad or average should just be honest with themselves and be able to admit that they're bad or average rather than looking for excuses to deny reality. It's only a game after all.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

They don't prove you're a better player

Why yes, yes they do.

 

Better players have better stats and win more, that's exactly how "better" works in a game.

View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 16:53, said:

or a better person.

Obviously, no one is a better person because they're better at  game. Then again you're arguing against a fake argument because no one says this. Of course it doesn't make someone a better person, everyone already knows that.



Siege_Engine #12 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:45

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View Post_AveSatanas_, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:42, said:

 

Win rate isn't the only stat in existence. Plus, currently your recent WN8 (what really matters) is higher than your overall WN8, and the same goes for your winrate. Recent is higher than overall.

 

Problem is that you can't be certain of my influence on win-rate until after 1,000 battles.  My next 50 battles might be 40% wins or 60% wins.  



Siege_Engine #13 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:47

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:44, said:

Your analysis was filled with flaws and was debunked by multiple people.

 

 

I asked in the other thread for people to tell me where my analysis was flawed.  I got mostly compliments on my analysis.  I don't remember anyone pointing out any flaw in the algorithm that I wrote.  I would gladly correct any flaw and re-run it.  Just let me know.  

 

 



Siege_Engine #14 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:48

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 18 2020 - 23:44, said:

Why yes, yes they do.

 

 

Except in my case, no, no they didn't.  Maybe try looking at the attached graphs in the OP?  



Brynar #15 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:54

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Stat shaming in game accomplishes nothing. Playing to win does.

8_Hussars #16 Posted Oct 18 2020 - 23:57

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View PostSiege_Engine, on Oct 18 2020 - 14:53, said:

I saw a big argument last night between players who were using stats to insult each other's gameplay.  Why?  Stats are an empty insult. 


Sure stat insults are more often than not ad hominem attacks and not a form of argument.  Having said that, stats also inform players of the opinions and information from players that understand the game and mechanics, as well as expose those who don't.

Regardless of the personal motivations, a large majority of players use stats to inform them of their personal progress towards goals, and how they match up with their peers.



8_Hussars #17 Posted Oct 19 2020 - 00:03

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View PostPipinghot, on Oct 18 2020 - 15:44, said:

Your analysis was filled with flaws and was debunked by multiple people.


QFT



White_Eagle_ #18 Posted Oct 19 2020 - 00:18

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No one knows for sure how someone will fair across 50 battles, there are some ugly losing streaks that everyone has.  But you have seemed to change your argument to just win rate and dropped that stats part of it!

The fact is, you can predict how a player will play over the course of 1000 battles or over a month with some certainty

But tell yourself whatever helps you sleep better at night, this is just a game.  Just play it and have fun and don't focus so much on what other people say

rustyJunk #19 Posted Oct 19 2020 - 00:22

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Stats are very useful to help you evaluate ***personal*** progress and to identify things to improve.

 

Stats only give a very general idea of other players skill level, but it is a decent general idea.  In game they can be quite useful as an indicator of which players to worry about as you plan your moves.

 

The problem is that you can intentionally misread stats to make up almost any story... and most trolls/bullies do.

 

 


Edited by rustyJunk, Oct 19 2020 - 00:23.


Cupujoe #20 Posted Oct 19 2020 - 00:44

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Without looking I would guess that you're playing higher tiers. That would explain higher damage output (more hp in game) and experience. 

Edited by Cupujoe, Oct 19 2020 - 00:44.






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