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M110 and M103 hull armor


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Onyx #201 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:33

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View PostCmd_Storm, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:14, said:

Ok its your favorite but by your own admission, you have to create the scenario to use it.

Its just interesting I never heard a guy say the 120 T53 was better than the S70.

The 120mm IMo is a solid gun, but the S70 is a T10 gun the 120mm isnt. I like the DPM of the 120mm I clean up alot of kills, but I dont see it as on the same footing as the S70.

I play US tanks because I like Depression and speed and frankly I hate Ruski tanks because they were so Op for along time, So just because I think a gun is better thats not the whole tank.

But im hoping the M103 and T110 does have a better gun, the 120mm is cool but not sustainable in CW, and the 155 got nerfed to hell.

BTw where did i ask for the S70?

Every single gun post you make, you constantly want the gun to be a base rip off of the S-70 or 128, only better in damned near every way.  That's where you keep asking for it.

And really, if you think it's "by my own admission I need to create scenarios to use it" then you're delusional.  It doesn't matter what gun or tank you're using.  If you're not intentionally creating the right scenarios to maximize it then you aren't using your tank effectively to begin with, and it doesn't matter what tank or gun you're using at that point, you are still going to use it poorly regardless.

SpectreHD #202 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:36

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View PostOnyx, on Jan 13 2012 - 22:49, said:

The problem is, when you're dealing with both these guns, you either have to deal with them strictly in a vacuum, or deal with them strictly in a real game.  You can't insert "one bounce, one miss" into this because the same can be applied to the IS-4.  It can miss for the most mundane of reasons just as the T34 can.  That's a hazard of a .35 accuracy gun.

And honestly, my damage rolls when I observe them (and I always do) are always around 400 in average.  Armor thickness does not affect damage potential from what I've seen and observed.  And I get 300 damage rolls about as commonly as 500 damage rolls.  That is to say, they're rare in general.  I see serious confirmation bias whenever I see anyone post that the average is below the listed amount.  It really isn't.  And really, the dispersion is noticeable if you have to come from full speed to a stop.  If you creep, sure, whatever, it's going to be good for both tanks.  That really isn't in question and is true of every tank.


And by dealing with them strictly in game, this DPM advantage the T34 hardly makes up for the T34's deficiencies. I was pointing out even in a very controlled situation, the T34 only gets a small advantage through its DPM. One bounce, one miss doesn't hurt the IS-4 but it does hurt the T34 if it ever wants to fully maximise its DPM. All the IS-4 has to do is just take cover and reload. So even if it did miss,  the T34 would still not be able to out damage it.

The only reason why I feel the average shots I get are always less than 400 average is because I can never stay out long enough to get that damage. It is always 1-2 shots then the target takes cover. Either that I give off 1-2 shots and then have to take cover. Really, each time this gun gives me a damage roll of 300, it really pisses me off.

To me, DPM is a useless 'stat' to measure a tank. I have never used it to describe how good a tank is because of RNG, chances of 0 damage crits and bounces. As for the dispersion on the IS-4, it is really good with the Vertical Stabiliser that you will hardly feel the 3 second aim time the S-70 has. This small advantages the T34 has over the IS-4 doesn't really help much.

hiroshi_tea #203 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:42

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View PostSpectreHD, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:36, said:

To me, DPM is a useless 'stat' to measure a tank. I have never used it to describe how good a tank is because of RNG, chances of 0 damage crits and bounces. As for the dispersion on the IS-4, it is really good with the Vertical Stabiliser that you will hardly feel the 3 second aim time the S-70 has. This small advantages the T34 has over the IS-4 doesn't really help much.
A low DPM, high alpha tank has the same chance to 0 crit as a high dpm tank.  In those situations, the high DPM tanks win.  
Comparison is moot and useless when you throw the RNG into the mix in that fashion.

Mow_Mow #204 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:48

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View PostDrBlue62, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:22, said:

Fun fact: Gold S-70 ammo is 10 gold while gold T53 ammo is 12 gold. Wtfz

Damned capitalist pigs...

SpectreHD #205 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:52

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View Posthiroshi_tea, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:42, said:

A low DPM, high alpha tank has the same chance to 0 crit as a high dpm tank.  In those situations, the high DPM tanks win.  
Comparison is moot and useless when you throw the RNG into the mix in that fashion.

Yes but does the high alpha tank stay exposed after doing a 0 damage crit? No, he doesn't and would take cover immediately after firing. To me, DPM is also moot and useless when the RNG is also involved.

Mow_Mow #206 Posted Jan 13 2012 - 23:55

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View PostSpectreHD, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:52, said:

Yes but does the high alpha tank stay exposed after doing a 0 damage crit? No, he doesn't and would take cover immediately after firing. To me, DPM is also moot and useless when the RNG is also involved.

No, you're totally fucked as the high DPM tank comes at you and fucks you up while you take 15 seconds to reload. See T30...

DrBlue62 #207 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 00:00

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View PostMow_Mow, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:55, said:

No, you're totally fucked as the high DPM tank comes at you and fucks you up while you take 15 seconds to reload. See T30...
The Patton is a super T34 in disguise.

Onyx #208 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 00:07

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View PostSpectreHD, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:52, said:

Yes but does the high alpha tank stay exposed after doing a 0 damage crit? No, he doesn't and would take cover immediately after firing. To me, DPM is also moot and useless when the RNG is also involved.

And does the T34 stay exposed after such a hit?

No.  You're adding situation-specific arguments into this.  On the same logic, a T34 is better to get in behind an enemy tank than most tanks with a high alpha low DPM gun and shoot them then retreat during the reload just like an alpha can, getting a surprise round and a free reload where the much slower tank has to very sloooowly react to it at that point.

You can't bring specific situations into this without throwing speculation at the entire case in general.  And, if there's one thing I can prove, it's that you can create situations where the T34's high DPM gun is superior to an S-70 or 128 if you actively try to maximize its advantages.

In a vacuum, the T34 beats the IS-4 in a straight up punch fest.  If one gun is assumed to miss, bounce, or get absorbed, the other has to be assumed to the same or similar degree.  If you intentionally create vacuum scenarios that put a specific gun, tank, or otherwise at a disadvantage, then you're going to constantly get information that supports the gun or tank you are putting at an advantage.  This isn't how you make a proper argument or back it up.

SpectreHD #209 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 00:38

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View PostOnyx, on Jan 14 2012 - 00:07, said:

And does the T34 stay exposed after such a hit?

No.  You're adding situation-specific arguments into this.  On the same logic, a T34 is better to get in behind an enemy tank than most tanks with a high alpha low DPM gun and shoot them then retreat during the reload just like an alpha can, getting a surprise round and a free reload where the much slower tank has to very sloooowly react to it at that point.

You can't bring specific situations into this without throwing speculation at the entire case in general.  And, if there's one thing I can prove, it's that you can create situations where the T34's high DPM gun is superior to an S-70 or 128 if you actively try to maximize its advantages.

In a vacuum, the T34 beats the IS-4 in a straight up punch fest.  If one gun is assumed to miss, bounce, or get absorbed, the other has to be assumed to the same or similar degree.  If you intentionally create vacuum scenarios that put a specific gun, tank, or otherwise at a disadvantage, then you're going to constantly get information that supports the gun or tank you are putting at an advantage.  This isn't how you make a proper argument or back it up.

How is this situation specific? It happens all the time in every match. This game always boils down into a peek a boo fight and how often opponents see each other depends on whoever has the slower reload. Maybe I wasn't clear but the high alpha tank, even after firing a 0 damage crit, would not stay expose to get shot at. The same goes for the high DPM vehicle. It fires, and lets say it does damage, would take cover to reload, and then try to peek back out. And in that span of trying to peek out, would already nullify whatever reload speed advantage enough for the high alpha to reload.

In game, in normal matches, the opportunity to maximise DPM rarely exists unless you have dependable teammates or can find an exposed target that cannot fire back.

VirgilHilts #210 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 00:50

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The Russian weapon has 12MM more average penetration. There has to be at least some measurable advantage there with regard to the likelihood of failure to penetrate, and the closer the target is to that threshold or above, the worse off the T53 120MM becomes. The T53 120MM is more likely to bounce. Unless of course the average penetration numbers are a meaningless lie.

I actually like the T53 120MM, at least to a reasonable degree. I just don't think it is a weapon of awe.

Arzoo #211 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 01:19

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It's kind of silly to have to work at it to make the 120mm better than the S-70 or 128mm considering that everything else about the tank is so much worse than the ones those guns are mounted on.

hiroshi_tea #212 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 01:20

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View PostVirgilHilts, on Jan 14 2012 - 00:50, said:

I actually like the T53 120MM, at least to a reasonable degree. I just don't think it is a weapon of awe.


US guns are simply respectable - not outstanding in any department.  Patton 105mm - just dpm.  Easy 8 76mm M1A2 - RoF.  Pershing 90mm - middle of the ground.  T32 105mm - low penetration medium damage.

The only uniquely strong gun is the 155mm and that's debatable but to RNG issues

American guns are always just good enough to get the job done.

SFC_Storm #213 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 02:36

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View PostOnyx, on Jan 13 2012 - 23:33, said:

Every single gun post you make, you constantly want the gun to be a base rip off of the S-70 or 128, only better in damned near every way.  That's where you keep asking for it.

And really, if you think it's "by my own admission I need to create scenarios to use it" then you're delusional.  It doesn't matter what gun or tank you're using.  If you're not intentionally creating the right scenarios to maximize it then you aren't using your tank effectively to begin with, and it doesn't matter what tank or gun you're using at that point, you are still going to use it poorly regardless.

Lol thats retarded I dont want a rip off at all of the S70, I was one of the very first People to ask for the 120mm to be a 280mm Pen 400 DMG 3k DPM gun..Go back and read.

Later I suggested A 600 4.5 RPM gun on the T110 both of those arent like the S70 AT ALL, you are delusional.

And thats my Point to say whats the better gun you have to see what its better at in most situations, and Sorry but in most situations in the T9 Heavies Alpha beats RPM, not always but most times, and with 260 PEN it is a big gap, also the S70 while technically not better seems more accurate than the T34, this could be me I guess and it could be Im more comfortable sitting stting for longer periods but It really feels IMO like the Patton`s .37 is more accurate than the T34`s even though on paper it shouldnt be.

I never once wanted anything like the S70, I wanted 400-420 DMG with 280 Pen and 3k DPM [I was 1st or 2nd to ask for this] or later after I saw Reclaws and others I concluded a 600 DMG 4.5 Gun would be cool, not as good as the 750 DMG the T30 has and not as much DPM but basically a very good all round gun, if they gave me a 490 DMG s70 I`d be pissed, it would be same old crap with lesser Armor.

None of these guns are "Base Rip Offs" but I guess unless its the T53 stats it must be a Rip Off of the S70 or 128mm right?? Lol

SFC_Storm #214 Posted Jan 14 2012 - 02:43

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View PostOnyx, on Jan 14 2012 - 00:07, said:

And does the T34 stay exposed after such a hit?

No.  You're adding situation-specific arguments into this.  On the same logic, a T34 is better to get in behind an enemy tank than most tanks with a high alpha low DPM gun and shoot them then retreat during the reload just like an alpha can, getting a surprise round and a free reload where the much slower tank has to very sloooowly react to it at that point.

You can't bring specific situations into this without throwing speculation at the entire case in general.  And, if there's one thing I can prove, it's that you can create situations where the T34's high DPM gun is superior to an S-70 or 128 if you actively try to maximize its advantages.

In a vacuum, the T34 beats the IS-4 in a straight up punch fest.  If one gun is assumed to miss, bounce, or get absorbed, the other has to be assumed to the same or similar degree.  If you intentionally create vacuum scenarios that put a specific gun, tank, or otherwise at a disadvantage, then you're going to constantly get information that supports the gun or tank you are putting at an advantage.  This isn't how you make a proper argument or back it up.


A tank with a 150mm hull vs a tank with a 240mm hull both turrets studs, the one with the 240mm hull and 260mm Pen is low enough to shoot str8 into the 150mm Hull, the 150mm hull has 246Pen...You can tassume 1 will bounce and one wont thats crap.

260 Pen gun doesnt need to aim well just at lower hull and ALMOST ANYWHERE WILL PEN
246 vs 240mm Hull=40/60 chance

You cant say thats even at all, the T34 is simply out matched in most arguments...Saying the 240mm hull doesnt matter is crazy.

"If one gun is assumed to miss, bounce, or get absorbed, the other has to be assumed to the same or similar degree."

Totally wrong, 1 is a T7 from the neck down, and has 12mm less Pen

The other has almost same pen as T53`s Pen at pointblank range...To assume they will bounce the same is folly, they are both the same accuracy.




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