4
Community Intern
Good morning Tankers,
The results are in from the first round of HE shell testing done on the sandbox server and have been published! We really appreciate all the feedback we received and hopefully the changes made based on player feedback reflect this.
You can read the full report on the testing here
As a reminder, the next round of HE shell testing will begin in late March or early April, stay tuned for further announcements.
Edited by stabbymckill, Feb 19 2021 - 15:56.
Captain
That is a massive nerf to a lot of 122MM premium heavies. HE makes bottom tier heavy at least somewhat entertaining if you have good turret armor and load up on HE. Both tanks hulled down an IS6 against an Obj705 can at least still contribute but without effective HE damage the IS6 doesn't really offer any value anymore. Same is true with Obj 252U against a 705 or 705A. Despite 3 tier battles, HE allows 122MM heavies to at least play like a heavy, use their armor and contribute. Will you be buying back the 122MM premium heavies then after they are ruined?
Close combat against a hull down heavy HE aimed at the commander hatch or turret ring currently still does SOME damage. If you have a good turret too like the tier 8 122MM heavies do, and the other player is likely a gold spamming loser that will still bounce most rounds you can do ok and even win.
Just know as a consumer this change will NOT make me buy pay to win rounds, I will just not use (and certainly not buy) any 120MM+ heavies.
Edited by Tedsc, Feb 19 2021 - 16:30.
Major
Captain
Cowcat137, on Feb 19 2021 - 10:23, said:
There is no problem with premium shells, the problem is with RNG which necessitates the use of prem shells. The only ones whining about prem are the bots who can't herp derp in their heavy tank and just win without taking damage or needing to think, just like the HE changes; bots who want easy brain free damage are crying.
Captain
RealBattousai, on Feb 19 2021 - 16:38, said:
Because there is no problem with premium shells, except from the bots who whine about it because they can't hurp a derp in their heavy tank and just win without taking damage or thinking, just like the HE changes, bots who want easy brain free damage are crying.
The problem with premium shells is pay to win idiots that shoot nothing but. There is no penalty for shooting P2W rounds. Standard round has better pen but worse damage potential to HE rounds. P2W rounds has better pen but still does the damage. The only penalty is cost so the only real penalty is sacrificing your dignity for being a P2W player.
HE rounds was the alternative, sure not as much damage as if it had penned, but an HE shell aimed at HE vulnerable spots did modest splash damage and disabled portions of the vehicle. On live server I take Russian premiums to hull down close quarters locations and if the opponent also hulls down, I can alternate between turret ring, commander hatch, turret roof, or tank deck depending on what I can target and do plenty of damage and force the other tank to spend repair and med kits in the process. On sandbox I was aiming at HE vulnerable spots and getting 20-40 damage per splash not 100-200. Ending a battle with 10-12 hits but less than 400 damage consistently, I certainly not switching to P2W rounds and becoming one of those absolute losers that we make fun of!
If these changes go through, why would I bother with a Russian or Chinese heavy? I am still big and slow with poor accuracy on open maps and close quarters maps will be pretty boring now too. What will be the fun of playing them?
Edited by Tedsc, Feb 19 2021 - 16:59.
Private
Captain
Fix RNG that will fix the entire game. This will not only fix apcr whinning problem without touching apcr and HE non existing problem without touching HE, will also fix newbies quitting and rigging complains.
Captain
ODBALL_W00F_W00F, on Feb 19 2021 - 16:52, said:
Not sure they paid attention but people shot almost exclusively P2W rounds on test server. In 15-20 battles I looked at what hit me during my battles and I don't know that I saw a single standard round let alone HE round. I shot HE exclusively from the tanks I play HE with, and I aimed at HE vulnerable spots and the result was an experience that would most certainly scare me away from purchasing Russian heavies in the future if these changes go live! If they do go live please give us a trade in option for our 122MM Russian heavy boat anchors (or get rid of +2 battles, that would fix them too).
Corporal
Disclaimer - I did NOT participate in the sandbox trials. I'm only throwing my voice in to say, whatever you do, please do not let HE (or HEAT) shells penetrate destructible environment or spaced armor/schurtzen screens. That's a solution without a problem, and it only adds yet more cognitive dissonance to the game.
If you're trying to account for how broken EBRs are (which IMHO they are), then my fixes are as follows:
1) Don't make it so easy for them to right themselves when they flip...it's like they get a "pass" from the laws of physics...punish stupid derby play that is so disruptive to all other players.
2) Want to make them fast...fine, but they're not drag racers. Moreover, in the real world, tracks exist for a reason: uneven or soft ground. SOFT terrain resistance for wheelies should be brutal compared to tracked scouts. Hard/medium terrain doesn't matter. That forces EBR drivers to be far more cognizant of their surroundings, and imposes at least some situational limitations on them.
3) Offset that with vision values more in keeping with tracked peers...currently this only exists as an arbitrary balance to their absurd mobility. Fix the gimmicky speed problem and restore some of the vision.
I have the full EBR line, but I still dislike them strongly. "Dynamic gameplay" is BS code for "decreases quality of game experience for other players".
Otherwise, HE spam on HTs - especially for HP damage, is annoying, and I'm cautiously optimistic about the implementation. Gotta be careful not to severely gimp those tanks who legitimately use HE (HESH/HEP) rounds to damage heavy armor. Those HESH/HEP rounds are usually premium and should retain high penetration values for that reason (IRL, that's how they work). However, throwing DERP (non-premium HE) should cause very little HP damage to medium or heavy armor. FWIW, I do however think it would be appropriate (and entirely consistent) to allow even regular HE to implement at least some of the same stun mechanic as arty. Crew and module damage should also remain possible with HE, albeit perhaps at a reduced rate for modules (esp internal ones - engine, fuel tank, ammo rack that cause catastrophic effects).
My 2 cents from an 8-year veteran of the game.
Major
Developer meeting:
"Look, we have to come up with something to do. The budget meeting is in two weeks"
"OK let's work in injecting skill MM into the mix without creating long wait times - try to even the teams out a bit"
"OR, we could work on bringing power creeped prems and tree tanks up to date"
"Let's lower the RNG a bit and test it!"
"Naw let's create an issue called 'HE shell testing' and push it. Why do actual work when we can create a theory that will run on for a year?"
"OK I'm in"
"Me too"
"Yep"
"OK - lunch. Let's got to Tony's for Stromboli"
Edited by LeaveIT2Beaver, Feb 19 2021 - 17:20.
First lieutenant
Tedsc, on Feb 19 2021 - 10:22, said:
That is a massive nerf to a lot of 122MM premium heavies. HE makes bottom tier heavy at least somewhat entertaining if you have good turret armor and load up on HE. Both tanks hulled down an IS6 against an Obj705 can at least still contribute but without effective HE damage the IS6 doesn't really offer any value anymore. Same is true with Obj 252U against a 705 or 705A. Despite 3 tier battles, HE allows 122MM heavies to at least play like a heavy, use their armor and contribute. Will you be buying back the 122MM premium heavies then after they are ruined?
Close combat against a hull down heavy HE aimed at the commander hatch or turret ring currently still does SOME damage. If you have a good turret too like the tier 8 122MM heavies do, and the other player is likely a gold spamming loser that will still bounce most rounds you can do ok and even win.
Just know as a consumer this change will NOT make me buy pay to win rounds, I will just not use (and certainly not buy) any 120MM+ heavies.
Exactly this ^^^^^
HE has always been my first-contact round with these tanks, and progressively, my only real counter to power-creeping follow-ons.
I've always saved my APxx for side-shots with these tanks.
The HE changes probably cater to a particular interest, but "common-sense" players can't be the target demographic because WG does not seem to deal much with "common sense" ...
Edited by KiltedAmerican, Feb 19 2021 - 18:37.
Major
Tedsc, on Feb 19 2021 - 11:06, said:
Not sure they paid attention but people shot almost exclusively P2W rounds on test server. In 15-20 battles I looked at what hit me during my battles and I don't know that I saw a single standard round let alone HE round. I shot HE exclusively from the tanks I play HE with, and I aimed at HE vulnerable spots and the result was an experience that would most certainly scare me away from purchasing Russian heavies in the future if these changes go live! If they do go live please give us a trade in option for our 122MM Russian heavy boat anchors (or get rid of +2 battles, that would fix them too).
Didn't run it much because of this. And this was mentioned on the forums numerous times.
Manic_Gun_Depression, on Feb 19 2021 - 11:14, said:
Disclaimer - I did NOT participate in the sandbox trials. I'm only throwing my voice in to say, whatever you do, please do not let HE (or HEAT) shells penetrate destructible environment or spaced armor/schurtzen screens. That's a solution without a problem, and it only adds yet more cognitive dissonance to the game.
Excellent point plus one.
LeaveIT2Beaver, on Feb 19 2021 - 11:20, said:
Developer meeting:
"Look, we have to come up with something to do. The budget meeting is in two weeks"
"OK let's work in injecting skill MM into the mix without creating long wait times - try to even the teams out a bit"
"OR, we could work on bringing power creeped prems and tree tanks up to date"
"Let's lower the RNG a bit and test it!"
"Naw let's create an issue called 'HE shell testing' and push it. Why do actual work when we can create a theory that will run on for a year?"
"OK I'm in"
"Me too"
"Yep"
"OK - lunch. Let's got to Tony's for Stromboli"
Been waiting to "return" this one and the above is a perfect post for it.
Major
Tedsc, on Feb 19 2021 - 11:06, said:
Not sure they paid attention but people shot almost exclusively P2W rounds on test server. In 15-20 battles I looked at what hit me during my battles and I don't know that I saw a single standard round let alone HE round. I shot HE exclusively from the tanks I play HE with, and I aimed at HE vulnerable spots and the result was an experience that would most certainly scare me away from purchasing Russian heavies in the future if these changes go live! If they do go live please give us a trade in option for our 122MM Russian heavy boat anchors (or get rid of +2 battles, that would fix them too).
^^^ This. I played around 20-30 battles in the sandbox as well. The problems with their implementation are twofold:
1) People just want to win regardless of the intent of the test server. Therefore they will sling free premium shells all day long. Free you say? Yeah, it's the test server so everything is free, literally. I pimped my tanks out better than I ever have in my main account. Was fun, but kinda unrealistic, unless I choose to use a helluva lot of gold to readjust all of my dozens of main tanks, crews, etc.
2) Their incentive was wrong. "Be in the top 10 in base XP for each battle." The problem is that to get more XP you either have to damage, spot, or track, mostly the former. And using HE in any way will do very little damage. They need to re-incentivize this in later versions. WG, please listen to this. If you want everyone to test HE, then maybe (here comes the hate) only have HE rounds in the HE test server. Or choose another incentive (you must shoot 90% HE rounds or something).. There are few other ways to get people to sling HE.
First lieutenant
warrends, on Feb 19 2021 - 11:42, said:
^^^ This. I played around 20-30 battles in the sandbox as well. The problems with their implementation are twofold:
1) People just want to win regardless of the intent of the test server. Therefore they will sling free premium shells all day long. Free you say? Yeah, it's the test server so everything is free, literally. I pimped my tanks out better than I ever have in my main account. Was fun, but kinda unrealistic, unless I choose to use a helluva lot of gold to readjust all of my dozens of main tanks, crews, etc.
2) Their incentive was wrong. "Be in the top 10 in base XP for each battle." The problem is that to get more XP you either have to damage, spot, or track, mostly the former. And using HE in any way will do very little damage. They need to re-incentivize this in later versions. WG, please listen to this. If you want everyone to test HE, then maybe (here comes the hate) only have HE rounds in the HE test server. Or choose another incentive (you must shoot 90% HE rounds or something).. There are few other ways to get people to sling HE.
This and Post #2 need to be sent to WG's Chairman, CEO, Oligarch, whatever ... and pushed back-down the chain.
Edited by KiltedAmerican, Feb 19 2021 - 17:49.
Private
And please once you launch, make it so HE shells that do not penetrate count as blocks for missions. I'm playing in my Kranvagn trying to finish off the block mission for the 279e and I got hit 17 times in a game. 13 of those by HE. It's absurd. If it doesn't penetrate that's a block. plain and simple.
Captain
RealBattousai, on Feb 19 2021 - 09:38, said:
There is no problem with premium shells, the problem is with RNG which necessitates the use of prem shells. The only ones whining about prem are the bots who can't herp derp in their heavy tank and just win without taking damage or needing to think, just like the HE changes; bots who want easy brain free damage are crying.
The only people that don't think there is a problem with Prem shells are the ones that just want to shoot and pen without having to Aim. So you're calling yourself a brain-free player since that is what Prem rounds in most cases are as well and are a much bigger issue than DERP guns as they take forever to reload and are not constant damage.
Captain
Tedsc, on Feb 19 2021 - 09:47, said:
The problem with premium shells is pay to win idiots that shoot nothing but. There is no penalty for shooting P2W rounds. Standard round has better pen but worse damage potential to HE rounds. P2W rounds has better pen but still does the damage. The only penalty is cost so the only real penalty is sacrificing your dignity for being a P2W player.
HE rounds was the alternative, sure not as much damage as if it had penned, but an HE shell aimed at HE vulnerable spots did modest splash damage and disabled portions of the vehicle. On live server I take Russian premiums to hull down close quarters locations and if the opponent also hulls down, I can alternate between turret ring, commander hatch, turret roof, or tank deck depending on what I can target and do plenty of damage and force the other tank to spend repair and med kits in the process. On sandbox I was aiming at HE vulnerable spots and getting 20-40 damage per splash not 100-200. Ending a battle with 10-12 hits but less than 400 damage consistently, I certainly not switching to P2W rounds and becoming one of those absolute losers that we make fun of!
If these changes go through, why would I bother with a Russian or Chinese heavy? I am still big and slow with poor accuracy on open maps and close quarters maps will be pretty boring now too. What will be the fun of playing them?
Russian heavies for the most part are not slow in any way shape or form. Hell, even the V4 isn't slow and that is a heavily armored TD. These changes, just make the Russian and Chinese tanks even more powerful, as very few things will reliably pen them from the fronts or sides. Not to mention forget even bothering to shoot at the 279e or Cheifton from the front once hull down or angled on a ridgeline as very few things have the pen to hurt them.
Major
As far as the low and middle tiers are concerned, the current HE works precisely as it needs to. The howitzers counter both thin and thick armor but are inefficient against moderate armor compared to a conventional gun, just as the Lord intended. True that there is the question of why a vast majority of guns' HE is absolutely useless and how to change that, but in the long run that is a minor detail to be worked out, not a significant problem.
In the high tiers, the same paradigm should also be the case, the only thing that interferes is that what counts as a 'moderate' armor profile is drastically different. The typical gun firing standard rounds isn't going to be nearly as effective in the high tiers relative to the available targets compared to the same situations in lower tiers. And that in a nutshell is the origin of all the various ammo problems. When the standard shell simply doesn't work, the players are going to have to swap to some other shell type, that really shouldn't be rocket science. If the standard shells worked as they should (or rather, if weakspots allowed them to), then there wouldn't be a single peep about gold shells or HE for that matter.
But insofar as these tests are concerned, the important thing is just making sure that dedicated howitzer platforms stay viable. Just the same as the last time HE was tested, the bellwether to determine true success is whether or not they have to make special exceptions to the rules for tanks like the KV-2®.
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