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Y'all need to show the developers some respect

Crew Training Retraining Crew 2.0 Sandbox

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sailorboy7982 #81 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 12:00

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:popcorn:

Edited by sailorboy7982, Mar 04 2021 - 12:04.


sailorboy7982 #82 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 12:06

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View PostEzioAuditore1456, on Feb 28 2021 - 17:16, said:

 

I recommend doing just that, take a long break from the game, I spent several years without playing before coming back and it helped me find out other genres that I currently enjoy

 

Maybe you should go back to playing Assassains Creed then.



SpectreHD #83 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 18:18

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View Post_W_R_A_I_T_H_, on Mar 01 2021 - 09:56, said:

Aside from free sixth sense and being able to use one commander in 3 tanks, I HATE everything else about Crew 2.0. 

 

WG could easily add sixth sense to all commanders and be able to assign each crew member to 3 different tanks in the current system; therefore, Crew 2.0 is not needed. 

 

EXACTLY.

 

This whole SCREW 2.0 reminds me of their convoluted solution to deal with premium ammo! Buff everything else (HP and standard ammo damage) and not touching premium ammo to pseudo nerf premium ammo. So convoluted they wanted to make a separate stat screen to show the new values!

 

Would be slightly less bad whereby the easiest thing they had to do was nerf the damage but that is an old suggestion that it is not good enough since the game changed massively. Didn't help that WG not completely change how they balanced tanks by making armour a balanceable stat. Now they want to mess with HE again.

 

 

These were the issues with crew that the game had:

 

  1.  Crews forgetting the previous tank they used.
  2.  EXP requirement exponentially increased after each skill despite the skills being not worth the EXP requirement.
  3.  New players starting with 50% or 75% crew. (I have stated for years newly purchased vehicles should come with 100% crews and do away with 50% and 75% crews)
  4.  Different crew numbers between tanks in the same line.
  5.  6th sense. (I personally would like 6th sense to disappear. Games were more fun when there wasn't that skill but at this point of people being so dependent on it, would just increase camping)

 

Can't recall anyone say we need new skills. So this SCREW 2.0 addresses 3 out 5 of the concerns above. Everything else is indeed unneeded crap.

 

How I would do things:

 

1. IMO, they should make the previous tank a crew has crewed to be free.

2. Each skill cost the same amount of EXP to unlock/get to 100% and have free respecs. Add different skills and improve some of the skills that barely do anything but stick to how it is now.

3. This is good.

4. Have a one time ability to duplicate a crew member of the same class needed to crew a newly researched vehicle or just standardised crew numbers throughout the line.

5. This is good.

 

Hopefully SCREW 2.0 will get the same negative feedback as their ammo rework that they will waste more development time trying to fix it.


Edited by SpectreHD, Mar 04 2021 - 18:56.


EzioAuditore1456 #84 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 18:51

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View PostBlaqWolf, on Mar 03 2021 - 15:16, said:

When they earn it, they'll get it.

Until then... don't think so.

 

Ah yes, the typical childish and prepotent thought that everyone needs to show you respect before you can be respectful towards them. I guess some people's parents never taught their children respect is a given, the rule and not the exception.

 

Someone warn me when wargaming calls players half the things you call them.

 

View PostSl33pyAlligat0r, on Mar 03 2021 - 20:55, said:

 

If money were no issue, I might agree with you

 

Money or no money, all I'm pointing out is that there's no good reason to not show the developers some respect. It's not about the merit of the changes, it's about basic decency, which this community seems to lack by a lot.



EzioAuditore1456 #85 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 18:57

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View PostSpectreHD, on Mar 04 2021 - 14:18, said:

 

EXACTLY.

 

This whole SCREW 2.0 reminds me of their convoluted solution to deal with premium ammo! Buff everything else (HP and standard ammo damage) and not touching premium ammo to pseudo nerf premium ammo.

 

Would be slightly less bad whereby the easiest thing they had to do was nerf the damage but that is an old suggestion that it is not good enough since the game changed massively. Didn't help that WG not completely change how they balanced tanks by making armour a balanceable stat.

 

These were the issues with crew that the game had:

 

  1.  Crews forgetting the previous tank they used.
  2.  EXP requirement exponentially increased after each skill despite the skills being not worth the EXP requirement.
  3.  New players starting with 50% or 75% crew. (I have stated for years newly purchased vehicles should come with 100% crews and do away with 50% and 75% crews)
  4.  Different crew numbers between tanks in the same line.
  5. 6th sense. (I personally would like 6th sense to disappear. Games were more fun when there wasn't that skill but at this point of people being so dependent on it, would just increase camping)

 

Can't recall anyone say we need new skills. So this SCREW 2.0 addresses 3 out 5 of the concerns above. Everything else is indeed unneeded crap.

 

How I would do things:

 

1. IMO, they should make the previous tank a crew has crewed to be free.

2. Each skill cost the same amount of EXP to unlock/get to 100% and have free respecs. Add different skills and improve some of the skills that barely do anything but stick to how it is now.

3. This is good.

4. Have a one time ability to duplicate a crew member of the same class needed to crew a newly researched vehicle or just standardised crew numbers throughout the line.

5. This is good.

 

I agree that gold ammo is a problem that they apparently can't get rid of (even though they've admitted themselves it does give an unfair advantage), but even still, as you said yourself, this new system fixes at least 3 of the 5 problems you pointed out yourself. Besides, I'm pretty sure many, many players were simply tired of having to pick the same skills over and over again, so new skills were pretty much a given, regardless of the system.

 

The basic idea is great, just the fact that it needs some changes doesn't give anyone the right to chimp out. But apparently drama, raging and name-calling is more interesting than level minded feedback. Go figure.



ATruk #86 Posted Mar 04 2021 - 21:42

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View PostJaguarz, on Feb 28 2021 - 18:00, said:

 

Who is this change aimed at then? New players and casuals will be at the mercy of wallet warriors in a way thats never been available before, the only real beneficiary of this is to those with money who can attain a monstrous 40% advantage over others with just a 75M crew and thats ignoring the skill point spend they get, just the bonuses from going from 75 to 75M

 

and just a FYI, people can do and say what they like, within the rules of the forums, you dont get to dictate their behavior or tell people what they can and cant do, you get to offer your opinion, thats pretty much it.

An interesting point you make. Today I can pay fiat for credits. With credits I can purchase Crew Books. With Crew Books my crews get up-skilled. It seems that this issue already exists.

 

What is going to be different is the cap on skill sets, somewhat mitigating this issue. You cannot train or even buy all the skills available in Crew2 as I understand it.

 

Today, anyone with enough fiat can have all skills trained to all crews in all tanks. That extravagance eludes me to date, so I expect another 10 years of grinding tanks to even get close to equaling those with completely skilled crews.

 

Crew 2 won't change the existing disparity. It might change the effectiveness of buying your crew skills because the hard limit on skill points does not allow anyone to have them all.



EzioAuditore1456 #87 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 01:22

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View PostATruk, on Mar 04 2021 - 17:42, said:

An interesting point you make. Today I can pay fiat for credits. With credits I can purchase Crew Books. With Crew Books my crews get up-skilled. It seems that this issue already exists.

 

What is going to be different is the cap on skill sets, somewhat mitigating this issue. You cannot train or even buy all the skills available in Crew2 as I understand it.

 

Today, anyone with enough fiat can have all skills trained to all crews in all tanks. That extravagance eludes me to date, so I expect another 10 years of grinding tanks to even get close to equaling those with completely skilled crews.

 

Crew 2 won't change the existing disparity. It might change the effectiveness of buying your crew skills because the hard limit on skill points does not allow anyone to have them all.

 

In reality, a lot of people are mad because they won't be able to have an advantage that they used to have, most people normally grind 3 to 4 skills in a tier 10 grind, while some players spend a lot of time and money training crews in their premium tanks to get to higher tiers with 7, 8 skills. People that play casually already are in a disadvantage considering that, so IDK why are people crying so much about this as if they were really concerned about crew disparity.

 

I'm not against having an advantage if you dedicate yourself more to the game, but all this whining sounds like butts being hurt.



SpectreHD #88 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 09:39

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View PostEzioAuditore1456, on Mar 05 2021 - 01:57, said:

 

I agree that gold ammo is a problem that they apparently can't get rid of (even though they've admitted themselves it does give an unfair advantage), but even still, as you said yourself, this new system fixes at least 3 of the 5 problems you pointed out yourself. Besides, I'm pretty sure many, many players were simply tired of having to pick the same skills over and over again, so new skills were pretty much a given, regardless of the system.

 

The basic idea is great, just the fact that it needs some changes doesn't give anyone the right to chimp out. But apparently drama, raging and name-calling is more interesting than level minded feedback. Go figure.

 

There is one very simple solution to premium ammo. Completely remove it or considerably nerf the penetration it has to only give 20-30mm more penetration, slightly reduce damage while reducing cost to be slightly more than standard. At the same time revert all the armour buffs that occurred on the patch where the buff the Maus and Type 4/5 to stupid levels. Basically when Murazor was in charge of balance and made armour a balanceable stat. Basically rebalance it as a whole and undo the damage it has done.

 

This proposed skill rework fixes 3 out of the 5, sure, but adds unneeded changes that are excessively convoluted and does not adequately compensate players for the amount of time and effort required to get skills past the first 3. It is the initial premium ammo rework all over again.

 

I personally don't think picking the same skills all over and over again is high up on the list of issues players are concerned with. Are there skills that are more useful than others? Yes. All WG have to do is make the less popular skills more viable.

 

View PostEzioAuditore1456, on Mar 05 2021 - 08:22, said:

 

In reality, a lot of people are mad because they won't be able to have an advantage that they used to have, most people normally grind 3 to 4 skills in a tier 10 grind, while some players spend a lot of time and money training crews in their premium tanks to get to higher tiers with 7, 8 skills. People that play casually already are in a disadvantage considering that, so IDK why are people crying so much about this as if they were really concerned about crew disparity.

 

I'm not against having an advantage if you dedicate yourself more to the game, but all this whining sounds like butts being hurt.

 

I have to completely disagree with your assessment that it is because people will lose their advantage. The main issue is the amount of time and effort needed to unlock more than 4 skills while at the same time give very little benefit. Some crews also were only obtainable during the Christmas (snow maidens), completing campaigns, and even straigh buying e.g. buying Berlin vehicles. So people will be upset if they end up with less. Furthermore, I do not believe any significant number of people have such high skilled crews.

 

You may see it as being butt hurt, however I see it as people losing out for no good reason at all and that is more than enough justification for people to be upset.



Badkarma #89 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 11:51

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View Posticbrainy, on Mar 02 2021 - 20:06, said:

 

On the contrary, it is justified, and for two reasons:

 

One, if we do things in a overtly-soft manner, then we nor them won't be able to quantify, let alone have irrefutable evidence, the strength of our views on how we really feel about something.

 

Two, if Wargaming continues on its current course of giving people a hard time, knowingly or not, then they rightly deserve all the flak and our negative views towards them, as clear consequences.

 

gave KRZYboop a bollocking for wrongly telling us what we should and shouldn't be worried about, and he rightly deserved it because its not up to him or any other employee how we should react to something, because that is completely against the foundational principle of gather customer feedback. In all honesty, I don't think he or those at Minsk understands the gravity of how things really do look at-present.

 

If they want the environment to change in a positive manner, well, the ball is on their side of the court to make it happen; but, instead of serving aces, they have been making one egregious bad serve after another. Boy this is no deuce here...

Good one... this is no "deuce" but crew 2.0 is a t*rd:bush:



SKurj #90 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 13:44

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weegee said well over a year ago that they had been working on crew2 for years even then, and that they would scrap it if players didn't like it (straight from dev QnA) but we know it won't be scrapped, some of it maybe...

 



ATruk #91 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 14:52

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View PostSpectreHD, on Mar 05 2021 - 01:39, said:

I have to completely disagree with your assessment that it is because people will lose their advantage. The main issue is the amount of time and effort needed to unlock more than 4 skills while at the same time give very little benefit. Some crews also were only obtainable during the Christmas (snow maidens), completing campaigns, and even straigh buying e.g. buying Berlin vehicles. So people will be upset if they end up with less. Furthermore, I do not believe any significant number of people have such high skilled crews.

 

You may see it as being butt hurt, however I see it as people losing out for no good reason at all and that is more than enough justification for people to be upset.

I see that players are worried about losing their advancement. Currently, we have all expended time and effort to unlock skills. We continue to expend time and effort to unlock skills in the current crew system.

The time and effort expended will transfer to the new system for all of us. Then, we continue to expend time and effort to unlock skills in the new crew system.

This does not eliminate our time and effort spent, and nothing should be lost except familiarity and comfort.



SKurj #92 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 15:20

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View PostATruk, on Mar 05 2021 - 08:52, said:

I see that players are worried about losing their advancement. Currently, we have all expended time and effort to unlock skills. We continue to expend time and effort to unlock skills in the current crew system.

The time and effort expended will transfer to the new system for all of us. Then, we continue to expend time and effort to unlock skills in the new crew system.

This does not eliminate our time and effort spent, and nothing should be lost except familiarity and comfort.

 

but haven't streamers already shown that in many (most) cases you cannot reproduce what you have earned with all that time and effort in the new system vs the old...   what it should do and what it actually does are 2 different things...



ATruk #93 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 16:19

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View PostSKurj, on Mar 05 2021 - 07:20, said:

 

but haven't streamers already shown that in many (most) cases you cannot reproduce what you have earned with all that time and effort in the new system vs the old...   what it should do and what it actually does are 2 different things...

I do not see how it could be reproduced exactly.

What can be reproduced is the time and effort put into the system. So if x="time and effort" in the old system, then x will still equal "time and effort" in the new system. All least that is the goal. This x should scale to the new system based on x="time and effort" for all players.

As a player, I have some very skilled crews and some not so skilled. They will all transfer to the new point system with relative "time and effort" intact. We will have to learn which new skills are desired for each of our crews and tanks.

This will be an expansion of the crew skill game within the tank game. Currently we have a skill path with a dead end. Once you have all the crew skills you are done with crew training. Period.

The new system will allow us to change up the crew skills in various ways. Can't have all the skills, but the combinations players make will be interesting.

 



SKurj #94 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 16:22

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View PostATruk, on Mar 05 2021 - 10:19, said:

I do not see how it could be reproduced exactly.

What can be reproduced is the time and effort put into the system. So if x="time and effort" in the old system, then x will still equal "time and effort" in the new system. All least that is the goal. This x should scale to the new system based on x="time and effort" for all players.

As a player, I have some very skilled crews and some not so skilled. They will all transfer to the new point system with relative "time and effort" intact. We will have to learn which new skills are desired for each of our crews and tanks.

This will be an expansion of the crew skill game within the tank game. Currently we have a skill path with a dead end. Once you have all the crew skills you are done with crew training. Period.

The new system will allow us to change up the crew skills in various ways. Can't have all the skills, but the combinations players make will be interesting.

 

 

they gave us the same skills in the new system or very close equivalents and then didn't give you enough points to reproduce those benefits you had.

 

so even though your employer still takes the same amount off your paycheck each week your benefits have now been reduced, but if you would like to pay more you can have your old benefits back.



ATruk #95 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 18:56

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View PostSKurj, on Mar 05 2021 - 08:22, said:

 

they gave us the same skills in the new system or very close equivalents and then didn't give you enough points to reproduce those benefits you had.

 

so even though your employer still takes the same amount off your paycheck each week your benefits have now been reduced, but if you would like to pay more you can have your old benefits back.

I can see that.

If you had 4 skills out of 5 available that would be 80% of all skills currently available.

In Crew2 your 80% now becomes 40% (or some other number) of available skills. This is the same for everyone.

 

The "grind and pay" to reach that 80% currently may be exactly the same "grind and pay" for that 40% (or some other number) in Crew2. In a relative way, that grind and pay is the same, but the goalpost is moved up to add time and variety to the game.

 

New added skills create the variety of choices for more customization of battle performance. Most of us already have a set pattern for crew training because of the currently limited skills and perks. How often has Adrenaline Rush been useful? Or any of the loader skills? Intuition? I don't use goldammo so I cannot tell you what I am losing. What I do know is that after camo, the loader is just another drunk tanker with mostly useless skills and perks.

 

Then there is the "performance factor" of each skill. Extending the 16 skills and perks we have currently into 25 or 30 will certainly affect this "performance factor". The ways in which players will combine these skills is under their control and not limited as it is currently. If I was all excited to finally have my 8 skill crew this Crew2 might bother me more. That in itself has not been my game goal. In fact, after a few important skills and perks, the rest are just there for spending XP on.

 

As far as benefits go, everyone is transferring assets to the new system. Ergo, everyone will wind up in a position relative to where they are now compared to other players. That is the dream.



SKurj #96 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 18:58

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View PostATruk, on Mar 05 2021 - 12:56, said:

I can see that.

If you had 4 skills out of 5 available that would be 80% of all skills currently available.

In Crew2 your 80% now becomes 40% (or some other number) of available skills. This is the same for everyone.

 

The "grind and pay" to reach that 80% currently may be exactly the same "grind and pay" for that 40% (or some other number) in Crew2. In a relative way, that grind and pay is the same, but the goalpost is moved up to add time and variety to the game.

 

New added skills create the variety of choices for more customization of battle performance. Most of us already have a set pattern for crew training because of the currently limited skills and perks. How often has Adrenaline Rush been useful? Or any of the loader skills? Intuition? I don't use goldammo so I cannot tell you what I am losing. What I do know is that after camo, the loader is just another drunk tanker with mostly useless skills and perks.

 

Then there is the "performance factor" of each skill. Extending the 16 skills and perks we have currently into 25 or 30 will certainly affect this "performance factor". The ways in which players will combine these skills is under their control and not limited as it is currently. If I was all excited to finally have my 8 skill crew this Crew2 might bother me more. That in itself has not been my game goal. In fact, after a few important skills and perks, the rest are just there for spending XP on.

 

As far as benefits go, everyone is transferring assets to the new system. Ergo, everyone will wind up in a position relative to where they are now compared to other players. That is the dream.

 

sorry but they devalued my time... while at the same time creating a larger gap between new and old (and putting in an easy to buy that gap)

 

i have no issues with new skills and stuff that's all great, but if you are leaving those old skills in the game, i should retain them and then have to choose between the new stuff if i want.


Edited by SKurj, Mar 05 2021 - 19:00.


EzioAuditore1456 #97 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 19:33

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View PostSKurj, on Mar 05 2021 - 11:20, said:

 

but haven't streamers already shown that in many (most) cases you cannot reproduce what you have earned with all that time and effort in the new system vs the old...   what it should do and what it actually does are 2 different things...

 

I think it's kinda relative about that. Yes, you shouldn't be penalized for the time spent, but you also can't stop a change that'll help a majority of the players at your expense, that being what wargaming believes these changes are meant to do. So it's more about finding a balance between people who are gonna lose a bit and people that are gonna win a bit so both of them don't get the feeling that it's both a loss and a lack of progress

 

View PostSKurj, on Mar 05 2021 - 12:22, said:

 

they gave us the same skills in the new system or very close equivalents and then didn't give you enough points to reproduce those benefits you had.

 

so even though your employer still takes the same amount off your paycheck each week your benefits have now been reduced, but if you would like to pay more you can have your old benefits back.

 

Except that we ain't paying them to play. It's easy to think that they can't dissatisfy some players to satisfy others, until we realize that, in the good old capitalist fashion, whoever ain't satisfied with their business model is free to use the services of a competitor



EzioAuditore1456 #98 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 19:34

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PS: the preliminary results were released in the EU server, I recommend y'all to read it, but tldr they're gonna tweak it and consider whether the next iteration is gonna come to the sandbox server or straight to common test

Herr_Apotheker #99 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 20:27

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A chicken in every pot and ...You are correct, of course, but:it should be necessary for newbies to grind Conventional 6th Sense the way all us old-timers had to. (as you pointed out)

 

Turn it around the other way...Give all players a free skill called "Guide shot by hand of Stalin" For any USSR tank with >122mm gun.   My Point



ATruk #100 Posted Mar 05 2021 - 21:23

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View PostSKurj, on Mar 05 2021 - 10:58, said:

 

sorry but they devalued my time... while at the same time creating a larger gap between new and old (and putting in an easy to buy that gap)

 

i have no issues with new skills and stuff that's all great, but if you are leaving those old skills in the game, i should retain them and then have to choose between the new stuff if i want.

I have considered that too. Then I thought "what was my time worth playing DOOM?". What is it worth now? Might I still be playing if they had updated the game? Or had a modern FTP model?

As far as pixels on a monitor go, while I might fall in love with them, I own none of it.

If, instead of looking for a new game to play, they are bringing the new game to me, that saves me the trouble.





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