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Remove arty stunning teammates


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Minneer_BigSadge #21 Posted Jun 17 2021 - 12:26

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View PostCraig234, on Jun 17 2021 - 09:10, said:

 

No, shooting the enemy does.

Then when you turn blue when you shoot far to close to allies I will make sure to drive back and remove you from the blue team



churchill50 #22 Posted Jun 17 2021 - 16:13

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View PostCraig234, on Jun 17 2021 - 01:13, said:



Good post except that you make it sound like arty want to stun teammates.

 

Fair, I was speaking hyperbolically. 

However, I've been stunned enough times by "friendly" arty to permanently doubt their intentions. I know not all arty players are as unscrupulous, but enough are that the removal of stun would be a great change in my opinion.



Mojo_Riesing #23 Posted Jun 17 2021 - 16:27

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View PostCAPTMUDDXX, on Jun 16 2021 - 11:21, said:

You are going way overboard with that.

For one hitting allies with any weapon or even collisions DOES NOT DAMAGE THEM. The victims lose nothing at all. It is all on the offender and when they cross the threshold in a battle they lose any gain they made, the service fee is taken when you click battle and the cost of wasted ammo.  

 

Is it going overboard really?  What is the goal of a punishment program to deter Team Killing then?  If it is to STOP that behavior, there are two conclusions to make.

  1.  Penalties assessed prior to "no team damage" did NOT change behavior. "Compensation" to players attacked did not eliminate player anger about Team Killing.
  2.  Removal of damage to players attacked by TK'ers did NOT change behavior, it just prevented damage to the player attacked.

 

It's clearly not enough to just say "it's ok, it didn't really count" if your intent is to stop unwanted behavior.  To do that, you must (figuratively) HURT the attacker more than it's worth for that person to attack in the first place.  The problem here is that players, many of them, use Team Killing/Damage as a way of expressing rage.  Rage IS  the problem here and it's presence permeates the game, and tolerating it allow it to spread even beyond the gaming environment.

In this game if you really, truly want this to stop you will need to take off the kid gloves and do some serious smackdowns on offenders. Everything else has been tried and has failed. 



CAPTMUDDXX #24 Posted Jun 17 2021 - 21:34

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Jun 17 2021 - 10:27, said:

 

Is it going overboard really?  What is the goal of a punishment program to deter Team Killing then?  If it is to STOP that behavior, there are two conclusions to make.

  1.  Penalties assessed prior to "no team damage" did NOT change behavior. "Compensation" to players attacked did not eliminate player anger about Team Killing.
  2.  Removal of damage to players attacked by TK'ers did NOT change behavior, it just prevented damage to the player attacked.

 

It's clearly not enough to just say "it's ok, it didn't really count" if your intent is to stop unwanted behavior.  To do that, you must (figuratively) HURT the attacker more than it's worth for that person to attack in the first place.  The problem here is that players, many of them, use Team Killing/Damage as a way of expressing rage.  Rage IS  the problem here and it's presence permeates the game, and tolerating it allow it to spread even beyond the gaming environment.

In this game if you really, truly want this to stop you will need to take off the kid gloves and do some serious smackdowns on offenders. Everything else has been tried and has failed. 

Alrighty then!

1. On the first hit on an ally the offender will be removed from the map immediately and their account will be closed permanently with complete loss of all progress and assets. The offender will then have to beg to be allowed to start over at tier 1. 

2. In the case of collisions all players involved will be removed from the map immediately, lose all progress in that battle and be restricted to tier 1 co op only for 100 battles without infractions before returning to regular play. Any hit on an ally during this period will result in the severe sanction described in 1. Collisions during this period will increase the number of penalty battles required for all players involved.

3. In the case the offender(s) are :bots: they will be removed from the map immediately.



Craig234 #25 Posted Jun 17 2021 - 23:00

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View Postchurchill50, on Jun 17 2021 - 07:13, said:

However, I've been stunned enough times by "friendly" arty to permanently doubt their intentions. I know not all arty players are as unscrupulous, but enough are that the removal of stun would be a great change in my opinion.

 

If you get shot by arty when there isn't an enemy, I'd agree, but otherwise, how is the issue anything other than just arty shooting at the enemy and you happen to be near? Is bad Wargaming design 'unscrupulous' for arty?



Mojo_Riesing #26 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 00:29

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View PostCAPTMUDDXX, on Jun 17 2021 - 12:34, said:

Alrighty then!

1. On the first hit on an ally the offender will be removed from the map immediately and their account will be closed permanently with complete loss of all progress and assets. The offender will then have to beg to be allowed to start over at tier 1. 

2. In the case of collisions all players involved will be removed from the map immediately, lose all progress in that battle and be restricted to tier 1 co op only for 100 battles without infractions before returning to regular play. Any hit on an ally during this period will result in the severe sanction described in 1. Collisions during this period will increase the number of penalty battles required for all players involved.

3. In the case the offender(s) are :bots: they will be removed from the map immediately.

 

And you seemed to think that i was hardcore!  :D  



SquishySupreme #27 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 18:47

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Jun 18 2021 - 00:29, said:

 

And you seemed to think that i was hardcore!  :D  


Aside from #1, a smaller version of #2 is in effect in warships.  Thou shall not shoot your own teammates.  And wow!  Aside from the odd collision and torpedo someone forgot was incoming, it rarely happens.



Mojo_Riesing #28 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 18:54

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View PostSquishySupreme, on Jun 18 2021 - 09:47, said:


Aside from #1, a smaller version of #2 is in effect in warships.  Thou shall not shoot your own teammates.  And wow!  Aside from the odd collision and torpedo someone forgot was incoming, it rarely happens.

 

Well how about that?   Maybe there is something to picking one poor random slob out at dawn to hang in the courtyard as an example to the others.



churchill50 #29 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 20:26

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View PostCraig234, on Jun 17 2021 - 15:00, said:

 

If you get shot by arty when there isn't an enemy, I'd agree, but otherwise, how is the issue anything other than just arty shooting at the enemy and you happen to be near? Is bad Wargaming design 'unscrupulous' for arty?

 

How is arty taking a shot at an enemy when a friendly is near them not the arty player's fault?

If the arty player ignores the fact that their shot will stun the friendly and shoots anyways, that's on them.



Craig234 #30 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 22:42

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View Postchurchill50, on Jun 18 2021 - 11:26, said:

 

How is arty taking a shot at an enemy when a friendly is near them not the arty player's fault?

If the arty player ignores the fact that their shot will stun the friendly and shoots anyways, that's on them.

 

You don't seem to understand the idea of blame. What if Wargaming made it to every time your tank shot, it charged your teammates 10 credits? Would it be 'your fault' they got charged?

Yes, in the sense you still chose to shoot enemies and play the game knowing they'd get charged, that's 'your fault'. But the blame is on Wargaming for making that the design.

 

In other words, telling Arty - who is already very limited as to when they get targets - 'if there's an ally near, don't damage the enemy, don't get the reward for your tank of doing damage', is often a bad idea and pretty clearly a badly balanced set of incentives.

 

It's bad design, so deal with that, instead of trying to blame arty for dealing with the bad design and the impact Wargaming created.

 

Other tanks don't have to deal with that tradeoff, and Arty shouldn't either.


Edited by Craig234, Jun 18 2021 - 22:43.


StoolSamples #31 Posted Jun 18 2021 - 23:22

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View Postchurchill50, on Jun 18 2021 - 11:26, said:

 

How is arty taking a shot at an enemy when a friendly is near them not the arty player's fault?

If the arty player ignores the fact that their shot will stun the friendly and shoots anyways, that's on them.

do I care if I stun you? nope. do I alter my shots if you are near my target? nope. after years of being tk'ed for playing arty consider it kharma. and yes just like the platoons that gamed the tk system by only shooting once this arty stun system is just as easily gamed. so here's to stunning you as often as you are near my target.  I suggest you learn to deal with it as best you can.



churchill50 #32 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 03:40

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View PostCraig234, on Jun 18 2021 - 14:42, said:

 

You don't seem to understand the idea of blame. What if Wargaming made it to every time your tank shot, it charged your teammates 10 credits? Would it be 'your fault' they got charged?

Yes, in the sense you still chose to shoot enemies and play the game knowing they'd get charged, that's 'your fault'. But the blame is on Wargaming for making that the design.

 

In other words, telling Arty - who is already very limited as to when they get targets - 'if there's an ally near, don't damage the enemy, don't get the reward for your tank of doing damage', is often a bad idea and pretty clearly a badly balanced set of incentives.

 

It's bad design, so deal with that, instead of trying to blame arty for dealing with the bad design and the impact Wargaming created.

 

Other tanks don't have to deal with that tradeoff, and Arty shouldn't either.


That argument is rather thin. Not to mention the first part is so utterly hyperbolic it's not even funny.

Back when team damage was a thing, do you think people who fired into a group of brawling tanks and damaged a friendly weren't to blame?

Do you think people who push you out into enemy fire aren't to blame?

Both of those are things that WG allow (or did allow in the past). Doesn't mean you aren't to blame for doing them.

 

Any system can be gamed, so personal culpability for your own actions is still an important thing to take note of.

 

To be honest though, I'm not sure why we're arguing. We both want team stun to be removed, unless I read your opening post incorrectly. Whether arty players are to blame for stunning teammates right now is only a sidepoint.

 

View PostStoolSamples, on Jun 18 2021 - 15:22, said:

do I care if I stun you? nope. do I alter my shots if you are near my target? nope. after years of being tk'ed for playing arty consider it kharma. and yes just like the platoons that gamed the tk system by only shooting once this arty stun system is just as easily gamed. so here's to stunning you as often as you are near my target.  I suggest you learn to deal with it as best you can.


People teamkilling arty was one of the major reasons to remove team damage. You're one of the major reasons for removing team stun.

What was your point again?



CAPTMUDDXX #33 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 05:11

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Jun 17 2021 - 18:29, said:

 

And you seemed to think that i was hardcore!  :D  

Well then what you want isn't what you want. Edit to your hearts content until it is what you want.



Mojo_Riesing #34 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 05:51

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View PostCAPTMUDDXX, on Jun 18 2021 - 20:11, said:

Well then what you want isn't what you want. Edit to your hearts content until it is what you want.

 

Just roll another one bud.



Akrotiri #35 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 11:39

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View Postchurchill50, on Jun 18 2021 - 14:26, said:

 

How is arty taking a shot at an enemy when a friendly is near them not the arty player's fault?

If the arty player ignores the fact that their shot will stun the friendly and shoots anyways, that's on them.

 

This seems just silly to me.  If you're all upset because you get stunned, the simplest and fairest solution would be for artillery to NOT stun team mates.  Right now, if you shoot a team mate with your TD, you pay zero penalties because you do zero damage.  This should apply to all classes of vehicle.  Leaving the system as it is just encourages more bad will between players.



CAPTMUDDXX #36 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 13:49

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Jun 18 2021 - 23:51, said:

 

Just roll another one bud.

I wish I could but nursing home bedridden no smoking rules the days.



Mojo_Riesing #37 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 16:25

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View PostCAPTMUDDXX, on Jun 19 2021 - 04:49, said:

I wish I could but nursing home bedridden no smoking rules the days.

 

Sorry to hear that. Best wishes for a full recovery.



CAPTMUDDXX #38 Posted Jun 19 2021 - 22:30

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View PostMojo_Riesing, on Jun 19 2021 - 10:25, said:

 

Sorry to hear that. Best wishes for a full recovery.

Thanks but there is no recovery. I had polio in 1953, messed up my bones and nerve to muscle connections. I had been able to get around with leg braces until 2017 when everything sort of wore out. I am here by choice making the best of it. Heck I might make it to 100 since I'm not smoking, drinking, hitting a bong and chasing women. I really miss that last one.

 



n4cer67 #39 Posted Jun 20 2021 - 00:39

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They should have removed team stun when they removed team damage. What's bad is many times players are hit because as soon as an SPG marks a target they go rushing in to try and get the kill knowing they can't be damaged by friendly fire the squeal like a pig when they get stunned.

CAPTMUDDXX #40 Posted Jun 20 2021 - 02:55

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View Postn4cer67, on Jun 19 2021 - 18:39, said:

They should have removed team stun when they removed team damage. What's bad is many times players are hit because as soon as an SPG marks a target they go rushing in to try and get the kill knowing they can't be damaged by friendly fire the squeal like a pig when they get stunned.

Then that is what needs to be removed not friendly stun.

Remove the moronic players that rush in knowing they'll get stunned.






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