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HE changes and Spall Liner


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NavyGuns45 #1 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 14:52

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What tanks will you be removing spall liner due to the HE changes in 1.13?  I'm curious to see what people were using them on and if they've changed their minds.

SociopathicTroll #2 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 15:02

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Spall liner was already pointless before this update and should never be run. The way it works (or worked rather) was that it would reduce damage from HE, but only by thickening the armor in response (about 60%). But HE shells would always find the weakest point of the armor within the splash radius and pen that. In practice this resulted in very low HE damage reductions, something like shaving off 50 damage taken from direct arty hits. 

 

No idea how it works after this update (but isn't really needed now either way). You're better off running turbo or improved hardening in its place along with the usual vents/IRM/rammer combo


Edited by RenamedUser_1045619995, Jun 24 2021 - 15:05.


HeroEnVec #3 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 15:31

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HE doesn't damage heavy tanks anymore, so no reason to have a spall liner.  Also, HE doesn't kill crew anymore, so... no reason to have spall liner.

Fractured_Raptor #4 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 16:10

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 09:02, said:

Spall liner was already pointless before this update and should never be run. The way it works (or worked rather) was that it would reduce damage from HE, but only by thickening the armor in response (about 60%). But HE shells would always find the weakest point of the armor within the splash radius and pen that. In practice this resulted in very low HE damage reductions, something like shaving off 50 damage taken from direct arty hits. 

 

No idea how it works after this update (but isn't really needed now either way). You're better off running turbo or improved hardening in its place along with the usual vents/IRM/rammer combo

 

I pointed this out a long time ago. Experimented with it and the damage from arty or HE in general doesn't really change due to how HE was coded to work. 



Suicidal_Enemy #5 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 16:14

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View PostHeroEnVec, on Jun 24 2021 - 10:31, said:

HE doesn't damage heavy tanks anymore, so no reason to have a spall liner.  Also, HE doesn't kill crew anymore, so... no reason to have spall liner.

 

Does spall only work for HE injuries? every shot seems to kill something these days ......



Drifter_X #6 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:08

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Hold the phone, spall liner only protects against HE inflicted damage and not other rounds? Ive been running spall liner, improved config, and hardening on my tier 9 double barrel with seemingly very good results. I could swear my crews do much better.

Drifter_X #7 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:10

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 15:02, said:

Spall liner was already pointless before this update and should never be run. The way it works (or worked rather) was that it would reduce damage from HE, but only by thickening the armor in response (about 60%). But HE shells would always find the weakest point of the armor within the splash radius and pen that. In practice this resulted in very low HE damage reductions, something like shaving off 50 damage taken from direct arty hits. 

 

No idea how it works after this update (but isn't really needed now either way). You're better off running turbo or improved hardening in its place along with the usual vents/IRM/rammer combo


50 percent off damage from your weakest spot should do very well I would think. Weaker armor = higher damage roll - 50% = decent?



Projectile_Misfired #8 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:33

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I don't think these HE changes really affected the viability of Spall Liners. I think that Equipment 2.0 essentially made them obsolete.



Fractured_Raptor #9 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:41

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View PostProjectile_Misfired, on Jun 24 2021 - 11:33, said:

I don't think these HE changes really affected the viability of Spall Liners. I think that Equipment 2.0 essentially made them obsolete.

 

They were never viable. Prior to the HE nerf HE searched for the weakest point of the explosive radius, and calculated the damage there. So instead of getting a flat reduction in damage like the spall liner claims you actually only get a tiny reduction because by nature HE always calculated off the weakest point, instead of the point of impact. I'd say you could test it on any heavy but prior to this patch if you ran a spall on any heavy arty damage wouldn't change a damn bit with or without it, maybe minus like twenty to fifty damage here or there. It was a complete waste of credits. 


Edited by Fractured_Raptor, Jun 24 2021 - 17:41.


Osseric #10 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:53

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Pretty sure spall liner only works on direct hits as well. So previously all arty or a 4005 had to do was hit next to you or under your tank carriage.

TheJeep1 #11 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 17:59

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View PostDrifter_X, on Jun 24 2021 - 08:08, said:

Hold the phone, spall liner only protects against HE inflicted damage and not other rounds? Ive been running spall liner, improved config, and hardening on my tier 9 double barrel with seemingly very good results. I could swear my crews do much better.


They were.  People who are typing the Spall Liner didn't work are misinformed.  They only dont work if the shell pens.  If a splash hits a weak spot they take 300 dmg, they say it dont work.  They would of taken 400-500 dmg if no Spall Liner.



SociopathicTroll #12 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:00

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View PostDrifter_X, on Jun 24 2021 - 11:08, said:

Hold the phone, spall liner only protects against HE inflicted damage and not other rounds? Ive been running spall liner, improved config, and hardening on my tier 9 double barrel with seemingly very good results. I could swear my crews do much better.

Only HE damage. 

View PostDrifter_X, on Jun 24 2021 - 11:10, said:


50 percent off damage from your weakest spot should do very well I would think. Weaker armor = higher damage roll - 50% = decent?

Remember it isn't a flat damage reduction, it's an armor increase. The HE round will still deal the same amount of damage, the only difference is that the weakest point targeted in the splash will have 60% more armor. That sounds like a lot, but because of how HE worked before 1.13 it's actually basically nothing in actuality. If a KV-2 fires an HE shell at your turret face, the shell will typically splash and deal damage to your hull roof right below the turret since that would be the weakest point of armor. If that had say 30mm of armor, it now only has 48mm of armor into the calculation. That's a negligible amount of damage shaved off. 

 

It's even worse with arty because their shells typically hit turret and hull roofs where armor is really weak. 

 

If you need more proof that spall liner is truly useless, here's a test with an FV4005 firing HE at an IS-6 both with and without spall liner. The spall liner didn't reduce damage at all. 

 


Edited by RenamedUser_1045619995, Jun 24 2021 - 18:01.


Edselman #13 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:01

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 09:02, said:

Spall liner was already pointless before this update and should never be run. The way it works (or worked rather) was that it would reduce damage from HE, but only by thickening the armor in response (about 60%). But HE shells would always find the weakest point of the armor within the splash radius and pen that. In practice this resulted in very low HE damage reductions, something like shaving off 50 damage taken from direct arty hits. 

 

No idea how it works after this update (but isn't really needed now either way). You're better off running turbo or improved hardening in its place along with the usual vents/IRM/rammer combo

 

In the past, I did notice a significant decrease in HE damage taken after adding the spall liner, never did anything to stop arty HE though because it actually only works, or worked I should say, against direct hits, but it took full splash damage which is most of the damage that arty does. Now it's pretty much useless. 



SociopathicTroll #14 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:05

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View PostTheJeep1, on Jun 24 2021 - 11:59, said:


They were.  People who are typing the Spall Liner didn't work are misinformed.  They only dont work if the shell pens.  If a splash hits a weak spot they take 300 dmg, they say it dont work.  They would of taken 400-500 dmg if no Spall Liner.

Spall liner only works on direct HE hits, if it's an arty round that lands near you and splashes, you get basically the same amount of damage. And you are way overestimating the damage reduced. Spall liner generally results in like 40-50 less damage taken off of direct arty hits. 

 

The one who is misinformed is you. Basically every decent player understands that spall liner is useless and there are about 10 other pieces of equipment that are more of a utility than spall liner. 



TheJeep1 #15 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:32

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 09:05, said:

Spall liner only works on direct HE hits, if it's an arty round that lands near you and splashes, you get basically the same amount of damage. And you are way overestimating the damage reduced. Spall liner generally results in like 40-50 less damage taken off of direct arty hits. 

 

The one who is misinformed is you. Basically every decent player understands that spall liner is useless and there are about 10 other pieces of equipment that are more of a utility than spall liner. 


No, I was taking about the splashing from a non-pen hit.  Understanding what you can't read would help you a lot.  In fact, no you are right, ditch the spall liner and run your heavy with vent, rammer, aiming......please.  Then everything that kills you, come here and beg like a little child for "nerf".   Reroll harder next time.


Edited by TheJeep1, Jun 24 2021 - 18:34.


Edselman #16 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:38

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View PostTheJeep1, on Jun 24 2021 - 12:32, said:

Reroll harder next time.

 



SociopathicTroll #17 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:41

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View PostTheJeep1, on Jun 24 2021 - 12:32, said:


No, I was taking about the splashing from a non-pen hit.  Understanding what you can't read would help you a lot.  In fact, no you are right, ditch the spall liner and run your heavy with vent, rammer, aiming......please.  Then everything that kills you, come here and beg like a little child for "nerf".   Reroll harder next time.


 

 

 

 



TheJeep1 #18 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:46

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 09:41, said:


 

 

 

 


15 years of age confirmed.



SociopathicTroll #19 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:56

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View PostTheJeep1, on Jun 24 2021 - 12:46, said:


15 years of age confirmed.

Ok Boomer 



Jaguarz #20 Posted Jun 24 2021 - 18:57

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View PostRenamedUser_1045619995, on Jun 24 2021 - 15:02, said:

Spall liner was already pointless before this update and should never be run. The way it works (or worked rather) was that it would reduce damage from HE, but only by thickening the armor in response (about 60%). But HE shells would always find the weakest point of the armor within the splash radius and pen that. In practice this resulted in very low HE damage reductions, something like shaving off 50 damage taken from direct arty hits. 

 

No idea how it works after this update (but isn't really needed now either way). You're better off running turbo or improved hardening in its place along with the usual vents/IRM/rammer combo

 

It wasnt great to be sure but I ran one on my arty magnet Pz7, crew protection and stun reduction did help a fair bit






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