Jump to content


Constructive Thoughts About Artillery (SPG) Problem


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

destroika #1 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 01:46

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 22146 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    03-17-2012

Please don't misunderstand. I am not attacking anyone or anything. I am attempting to understand what the issue is that has been plaguing this game for as long as I know.

Please keep this thread clean of hate.

 

People have hated artillery since I started some 8 or 9 years ago. It's been hard for the community to actually describe the real issue. It is more than just being hit by artillery, because many of these people are hit by other tanks and it doesn't produce the same hatred affect.

 

Lately, I came across a post I didn't think much about at the time, but someone said what they didn't like was how artillery interacted with the battle. Quickybaby calls artillery something to the affect of "the RNG damage", no matter where you are or what you're doing or how fast you're going in some pattern, you have the lease amount of control of being hit by an SPG or not. People will argue there's no safe spot, but clearly artillery as-is has limits to where it can land rounds.

 

I'm also struggling with the words to describe the issue, which is why I hope this is a constructive forum string, but the best I can do is offer an analogy. If WoT removed arty in a test area, but introduced some Sci-Fi direct fire tank that was unique in it's ability to not have a draw distance limitation and you found yourself far more frequently being shot beyond draw distance, would that cause the same level of infuriation? This tank would otherwise have the same interface for shooting at targets as any other direct fire, the only variable would be draw distance.

 

I strongly suspect that this is the issue, and I think it would be important to test. The test realm just doesn't seem to get enough people for a good population study, so I recommend that WoT make a "Test Mode Battle" that you could select similar to Standard battle, or some event battle, or Frontlines and like events, just only activate it for a couple of weeks and turn it off.


Edited by destroika, Oct 14 2021 - 05:51.


ArtyLove #2 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 02:21

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 1223 battles
  • 406
  • Member since:
    03-06-2018
No issues with arty for me. Never has and never will. Maybe use a training room to do your tests.

ArmorStorm #3 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 02:39

    Major

  • Players
  • 42543 battles
  • 10,224
  • [F__R] F__R
  • Member since:
    08-12-2011

The issue with arty is that there is no direct counter play for other tank types.  Arty breaks a few game rules that all other tanks have to abide by.  SPG play doesn't bother me, but I do understand the frustration of players who are getting shot from an area that they cannot even see, over obstacles they cannot overcome.  There was a time when scouts making an "arty run" often countered the arty players, but there again is an imbalance that cannot be fixed.  

 

Arty has suffered enough, I don't see how they can change it to make anyone happier.  Oh, and your idea wouldn't work, there are VERY few spots where you could just line up long shots like that and we are back to the "can't counter rule breaking tank" problem.



Altwar #4 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 03:44

    Major

  • Players
  • 64898 battles
  • 7,049
  • [-GNR-] -GNR-
  • Member since:
    04-24-2011

View Postdestroika, on Oct 13 2021 - 16:46, said:

Some people have hated artillery since I started some 8 or 9 years ago. *snip*

 

There, fixed it for you.

This is a game.  If someone plays a game and feels hate for some of the elements of it, perhaps they shouldn't play it?  Or understand it's part of the game and use it to their advantage.

 

Anyway, SPGs haven't ever been a problem for me, even for the uncommon times where I'm cratered and removed from the map.   It happens,  the same way an autoloader may clip me out or a TD may leave a driveway thru the middle of my vehicle or yada, yada, yada.  All good times, all good fun to me! 



ATruk #5 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 03:59

    Captain

  • Players
  • 76902 battles
  • 1,648
  • Member since:
    03-16-2013

View PostArmorStorm, on Oct 13 2021 - 18:39, said:

The issue with arty is that there is no direct counter play for other tank types.  Arty breaks a few game rules that all other tanks have to abide by.  SPG play doesn't bother me, but I do understand the frustration of players who are getting shot from an area that they cannot even see, over obstacles they cannot overcome.  There was a time when scouts making an "arty run" often countered the arty players, but there again is an imbalance that cannot be fixed.  

Spoiler

 

That is the reasoning I understand about the dislike of the SPG.

Way I see it, I want my team SPG to be better than the enemy SPG.

They are quite useful from a team perspective. They damage and destroy tanks that are trying to damage and destroy mine. I don't mind the help.



destroika #6 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 04:16

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 22146 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    03-17-2012

View PostArmorStorm, on Oct 14 2021 - 01:39, said:

The issue with arty is that there is no direct counter play for other tank types.  Arty breaks a few game rules that all other tanks have to abide by. 

 

This brings me back to my point. If you could elaborate on "a few game rules." I have identified how all tanks except artillery are limited by draw distance. Do you agree with this one? Are there other specific issues you can identify?

 

Please note I am not proposing any changes to arty play. I am only trying to identify the issue(s).


Edited by destroika, Oct 14 2021 - 04:20.


Projectile_Misfired #7 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 04:57

    Major

  • Players
  • 39469 battles
  • 6,408
  • Member since:
    05-30-2012

I think WG "fixed" the arty issue a few years ago. It was called "Wheelies". 

Everything else WG has done to arty since they were introduced was just as bogus as their "HE nerfs".



Zippit #8 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 05:36

    Captain

  • Beta Testers
  • 19671 battles
  • 1,930
  • Member since:
    02-19-2011

View Postdestroika, on Oct 14 2021 - 10:46, said:

If WoT removed arty, but introduced some Sci-Fi direct fire tank that was unique in it's ability to not have a draw distance limitation and you found yourself far more frequently of being shot beyond draw distance, would that cause the same level of infuriation?


ah yes, the WT Auf E100



destroika #9 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 05:46

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 22146 battles
  • 165
  • Member since:
    03-17-2012

View PostZippit, on Oct 14 2021 - 04:36, said:


ah yes, the WT Auf E100

 

Basically, a tank that's not trying to be historical. A tank designed to test mechanics and in this case, mechanics that have frustrated people. They could use any tank for this experiment, as long as it was contained outside of the live play.



Sam_Sanister #10 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 07:07

    Captain

  • Players
  • 30288 battles
  • 1,963
  • Member since:
    10-11-2013

View PostArmorStorm, on Oct 13 2021 - 19:39, said:

Arty breaks a few game rules that all other tanks have to abide by. 

 

Arty has suffered enough, I don't see how they can change it to make anyone happier.  

WoT is like a shooter without grenades, except for one class that's got them as their only option.

So as a shooter, SPGs don't break the game rules.

 

The two textbook examples for punishing passive play are indirect fire and spotting, and it's interesting that the vehicles designed to excel in these roles (wheelies, arty) are hated the most (yet oddly enough, one speeds up the game while the other slows it down).

With each arty nerf, games seem to get faster as fear of them gets reduced. It's almost like nerfing vehicles with a passive play style indirectly buffs those with active play styles.

 

To paraphrase Day9 (former Starcraft pro) "while aggression obviously needs to be rewarded better than defense, throwing the balance too far in favor of aggression gets you short, unfun games."



RealBattousai #11 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 13:49

    Major

  • Players
  • 60103 battles
  • 2,014
  • [M3GA] M3GA
  • Member since:
    02-02-2012

I'll try to address your post point by point below with my thoughts...

 

1.

View Postdestroika, on Oct 13 2021 - 19:46, said:

People have hated artillery since I started some 8 or 9 years ago. It's been hard for the community to actually describe the real issue. It is more than just being hit by artillery, because many of these people are hit by other tanks and it doesn't produce the same hatred affect.

 

The key issue is that there is no risk to the arty player, they do not expose themselves, they cannot be fought back against directly by their victim, unlike every other tank class, even TDs expose themselves when they fire most times. This unfairness is what leads to the rage, it is an inherently unbalanced mechanic the way its implemented and so its not a legitimate game mode but ends up being a griefing mechanic.

 

2.

View Postdestroika, on Oct 13 2021 - 19:46, said:

Lately, I came across a post I didn't think much about at the time, but someone said what they didn't like was how artillery interacted with the battle. Quickybaby calls artillery something to the affect of "the RNG damage", no matter where you are or what you're doing or how fast you're going in some pattern, you have the lease amount of control of being hit by an SPG or not. People will argue there's no safe spot, but clearly artillery as-is has limits to where it can land rounds.

 

So couple of things here, adding to the fact that the arty player has no skin in the game, arty itself is like a slot machine, i.e. 'RNG damage', it can pen you for all your HP or hit your tracks for zero damage. As for having cover from arty, yes there are a few spots BUT if you sit in those then you are effectively out of the game or being useless to your team. This is especially magnified when there are three arty per team, on certain maps you might as well give up playing the match because its just going to be a miserable experience, take for example Prok, Malinovka, Westfield, maps where there are key areas of the map which are completely exposed to arty.

 

Of course this has vastly improved now with the nerfs and the detection mechanism its not nearly as bad, and also we don't get many games with three arty. However to ensure this new found better experience for all they really should limit arty to max 2, though ideally 1 per team.

 

3.

View Postdestroika, on Oct 13 2021 - 19:46, said:

I'm also struggling with the words to describe the issue, which is why I hope this is a constructive forum string, but the best I can do is offer an analogy. If WoT removed arty in a test area, but introduced some Sci-Fi direct fire tank that was unique in it's ability to not have a draw distance limitation and you found yourself far more frequently being shot beyond draw distance, would that cause the same level of infuriation? This tank would otherwise have the same interface for shooting at targets as any other direct fire, the only variable would be draw distance.

 

Well this would still lead to the same issues as arty today, the issue again is the fact that arty can't be effectively countered by its victims, unlike every other tank class and the fact that the arty player has no skin in the game. Other tank classes have to make a lot more effort in order to get their damage and be effective, but not artillery. So this 'test tank' would have the same problem, but I assume that is what you're trying to determine. 

 



cavalry11 #12 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 14:50

    Captain

  • Players
  • 61402 battles
  • 1,666
  • [-NHL-] -NHL-
  • Member since:
    06-24-2013
Well your idiotic statement that arty can not be countered is pure rubbish. There are several things counter battery fire by arty and scouts and wheelies doing there job and finding them, problem solved.

ATruk #13 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 15:21

    Captain

  • Players
  • 76902 battles
  • 1,648
  • Member since:
    03-16-2013

View Postdestroika, on Oct 13 2021 - 17:46, said:

<snip>.

If WoT removed arty in a test area, but introduced some Sci-Fi direct fire tank that was unique in it's ability to not have a draw distance limitation and you found yourself far more frequently being shot beyond draw distance, would that cause the same level of infuriation?

<snip>

 

Shoot enemy tanks while unspotted. Destroy them.

Shoot enemy tanks outside your view range (team spots). Destroy them.

I do this most successfully with the tanks in this order: SPG, LT, TD, MT, HT

See if you don't get unfriendly chat mail about cheat mods.

 

edit added: Your post title suggests there is a SPG problem. There is not really, there are only complaints.


Edited by ATruk, Oct 14 2021 - 15:36.


pafman #14 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 15:34

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 42590 battles
  • 942
  • [-_-] -_-
  • Member since:
    05-30-2011

a little dated but still relevant 



choSenfroZen_1 #15 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 16:10

    Captain

  • Players
  • 6347 battles
  • 1,432
  • [GITS] GITS
  • Member since:
    12-26-2015

The problem actually is.....

 

 

people think they are playing a different game.

 

Whatever game they want , without long range in-direct fire. World of Tanks, simply is not that game. Period.

 

Your statement, 8-9 years . You realize those who play and hate, almost fit the definition of insanity.

 

The game has existed with 5 classes since release.

It cannot be broken, as it has been designed this way.

Millions and millions of players, seem to do just fine.

 

There really is not a problem, other than a few who play a game they seem to hate.

Want the authors of the game to rewrite it so a few will have something more like ATARI Tanks.

 

Joining a game, and demanding part of it be changed is a telling point.

 

It is like joining a game of soccer. Some guy seems breaks the rules, ruins your game by using his hands to stop your perfect shot.

It is not fair, he can use his hands. You work hard to get the ball all the way down. You use actual aggression.

Then some no skill guy, just has to sit there, never move, and  stops my shot. Wa.

 

It really is undignified.

 

 


Edited by choSenfroZen_1, Oct 14 2021 - 16:13.


Tanksforallthefish0 #16 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 16:45

    Sergeant

  • Players
  • 8245 battles
  • 129
  • Member since:
    04-28-2012

the reason some people hate arty is because they the only thing that sticks in their minds about it is when they get hit. What they NEVER, and I mean never, seem to realize is that for every shot that hit them there are probably a dozen more that peppered the uninhabited hillside behind them. So they just rave on about that one time arty got an extremely lucky shot on them while they were out in the open.

EDIT: almost forgot, they also don't realize how irritating it can be to try to hit people on city maps.


Edited by Tanksforallthefish0, Oct 14 2021 - 16:48.


nuclearguy931 #17 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 17:05

    Major

  • Players
  • 92835 battles
  • 12,683
  • [UMM] UMM
  • Member since:
    08-16-2011

I get a kick out of the wheelie players, zipping at 80mph in and out of all the other tanks, not getting hit, lighting them up, doing a bit of damage, getting assistance then boom, he gets splashed by arty. Now he is slowed down and eliminated by the other tanks he was just mazing through. Then has the nerve to complain about arty? Get the f outta here. You know what I mean.

 

Arty has been a part of the game since its' inception. If you want to play 'the game' then you play 'the game' the way it is, not the way you want it to be to suit your style. 



DVK9 #18 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 17:40

    Captain

  • Players
  • 27872 battles
  • 1,761
  • [-TX-] -TX-
  • Member since:
    05-15-2013

Ok my 2 cents in this actual civil discourse on SPG's.

First: Constructive Thoughts About Artillery (SPG) Problem

Do you see the ISSUE with the highlighted text?

You let a bias in right at the start.

 

Second:  It is more than just being hit by artillery, because many of these people are hit by other tanks and it doesn't produce the same hatred affect.

I would say you havent heard me when my heavy gets nailed round after round, right after I used my repair kit, and watch myself die.

Same can be said about being in my med,Lt, and TD. 

The only issue is that the rage is usually aimed at my team. 

 

Third: If WoT removed arty in a test area, but introduced some Sci-Fi direct fire tank that was unique in it's ability to not have a draw distance limitation and you found yourself far more frequently being shot beyond draw distance, would that cause the same level of infuriation? 

 

Well I would say that as long as it had to function under the restrictions arty does, why not.

You are blind, crippled in speed, crippled by a slow reload. (come on how many of you would play a heavy that had a consistent 30 second reload for a single round?) 

We have to rely on others to spot for us so we can shoot. The bloom takes ages to shrink down so you might actually hit the target.

Put up with that in a heavy/med/Lt.

oh the lower tier arty do have draw range restrictions.

 

I have been around for almost 8 years now and I have played every class of tank.

I dont remember chats being aimed at arty but more to "your mother" and other such statements usually aimed at the other team.

I never used to get hate mail playing arty , this is a more recent (2-3 years now) form of constructive criticism.

I never received this level of hate while driving any class over the pass 7+ years.

 

I lived the post 9.18 update that removed our ability to do real damage and being able to go TD mode but thoughtfully removed the 5 arty size to 3.

Then every update WG removed or changed something about arty.

 

Honestly like others above said it is more about raging because they cant play the way THEY think the game should be played.

 

 

 



pafman #19 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 18:11

    First lieutenant

  • Players
  • 42590 battles
  • 942
  • [-_-] -_-
  • Member since:
    05-30-2011

View PostchoSenfroZen_1, on Oct 14 2021 - 16:10, said:

The problem actually is.....

 

 

people think they are playing a different game.

 

Whatever game they want , without long range in-direct fire. World of Tanks, simply is not that game. Period.

 

Your statement, 8-9 years . You realize those who play and hate, almost fit the definition of insanity.

 

The game has existed with 5 classes since release.

It cannot be broken, as it has been designed this way.

Millions and millions of players, seem to do just fine.

 

There really is not a problem, other than a few who play a game they seem to hate.

Want the authors of the game to rewrite it so a few will have something more like ATARI Tanks.

 

Joining a game, and demanding part of it be changed is a telling point.

 

It is like joining a game of soccer. Some guy seems breaks the rules, ruins your game by using his hands to stop your perfect shot.

It is not fair, he can use his hands. You work hard to get the ball all the way down. You use actual aggression.

Then some no skill guy, just has to sit there, never move, and  stops my shot. Wa.

 

It really is undignified.

 

 

troll gold right here



drgnrdr6 #20 Posted Oct 14 2021 - 18:12

    Staff sergeant

  • Players
  • 33730 battles
  • 378
  • Member since:
    10-12-2011

The only problem  I see with arty is that WG has fornicated it to the ground.

The reasons I say that are as follows.

 

#1 They give ARTY less exp and credits than other tanks even when they

     do better in battle THAN OTHER PLAYERS.

#2 They have been nerfing ARTY since update 9.18. Yet they have been 

      buffing all other tanks to the point that ARTY barely hurts them.

#3 They have nerfed HE rounds to death not just for ARTY but for all tanks.

#4  This is a personal gripe here. The COMMUNITY CONTRIBUTERS 

       (all of them) refer to ARTY players as SCUM OF THE EARTH, WINDOW

      LICKERS and players that are not to be ALLOWED in the game and this

      in and of itself is wrong. CC's should be held to a higher standard much

      like clan officers I feel. CC's and clan officers should not be telling people 

      that they are lower than a pile of whale dropping or that if they can't play 

      the game leave the game.

#5 WG listens only to the favored players and their crying about ARTY and

     how it reached out across the map and touched it hurting them which in 

     its own right is wrong. Why should WG listen to the stat padding seal

     clubbing few and not those that actually do pay and are not shills for the

     game

 

That is my 4 cents worth and I have tried to be polite and calm about it.

 

By the way I have been playing since 2011 when you could see 5 or more 

ARTY per battle


Edited by drgnrdr6, Oct 14 2021 - 18:20.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users