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Useless as Bottom Tier? The "Zero" Damage Game for a Win.

-2 bottom tier useless bottom tier zero damage win help your team do something helpful

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dunniteowl #1 Posted Nov 16 2021 - 23:47

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I have been on the forums for a while, going on 7 years now.

 

Countless are the times I have come across a thread that complains about being Bottom Tier.

 

Look, I feel you, I have had my share of games where I couldn't find a way to make a positive impact on the outcome of a match.  More than my 'fair' share in some folks' eyes (meaning that there is a 'fairness' issue with being Bottom Tier).

 

I have felt as most who have complained about this.  Sometimes I still do.  I see me being bottom tier a lot and there are times when all I can think is, "What the hell can I even DO?"  So I know the sensation and despair at times of being on the bottom of the pile and seeing the Team Composition that tells me, not only are the top tier tanks unpenetrable by me unless I'm right behind them (unlikely), most of my own tier tanks are better frontally armored, making them 'difficult' to pen, though not impossible.

 

At that point, I feel that burn that says, "You are so hosed, man.  You really are."

 

I'm here to say that you must fight that feeling.  You have to ask yourself, "What can I do that can make a difference?"

 

Hell, most of the time I don't even have an idea of what I can do at that moment.  However, asking the question with an earnest desire for an answer can help your mind to think more strategically, more tactically, so that you can do SOMETHING that might make a difference to your team to win.  A positive difference.

 

Just got off Mines.  Playing my Jagd Panther (T7 DE TD).  My ping is not friendly today, but I thought I'd give it a fifth go and see what happened.  Damn, another bottom tier, useless tank I am, was my initial thought.  Oh well, what can I do that will help my team, I asked?

 

So I went to where pretty much No-one else on my team even looked -- I took the West Side of the map on the island and took up a position of Rock/Bush about 80 meters from the north end of the island and held.  Sure enough a tier IX HVY (Conqueror) and a tier VII T20 came my way.  If it were only the T20, I would have been okay.  The Conqueror had front spot and in my position, peeking and poking was pretty much asking to get a one shot in the face from it.  It might not have deleted me in one shot, but a 2nd one would have been it.  If I tried to shoot, I'd get nailed by two tanks, maybe a third I couldn't see or spot, so I did my best to pretend to meld with the backside of the rock...

 

... Until I lost my spotting.  I then crept forward to the bush side (there is a 'gap' in that bush by the rock that WILL cause you to be spotted, no matter what if someone's close enough), poked and backed away just enough to get that spotting going again.  I thought they were going to overrun me, which they could have easily done.

 

A Scorpion came to help, then ran away.  Then came a MED of some sort, but I honestly was more focused on not getting shot while maintaining my spotting, so all I could say was it was a MED.  He also ended up running away and getting a more distant position.

 

Each time I lost my spot, I poked and reacquired both the Conqueror and the T20, then retreated behind the rock.  I got shot at by arty and slightly damaged (more importantly it damaged my ammo rack, but I didn't use a kit yet).  I hugged that damn rock until I lost my spot again then backed the hell away from the rock.  

 

I was gambling that the hesitation they showed meeting me meant they weren't going to be too aggressive.  Sure enough, another arty shot landed where I had been.  I then crept up again, regained the spots and hugged that rock again.

 

I haven't fired more than one shot (and that was to make sure my gun was going to fire -- I have this, "gun won't fire" at game start issue from time to time that I have to test my gun, switch ammo types and good to go.  That was the only shot I fired -- to ensure I COULD.

 

Here is the result of my 'useless' tank:

Posted Image

 

You can find some way to Help Your Team.  it won't always work.  It won't be glorious.  It won't be pretty.  It won't net you all sorts of 'gg' comments after battle.  It DOES help your team in a positive way if there is little you can do in the first place.

 

I had a 'bad' tank for my position, not fast, not maneuverable, not a very powerful gun even at tier, as far as it goes.  I did find a way to hang in there and still obey my Mantra for Play:

 

Survive

Do Damage

Help Your Team.

 

I Survived.

I Did Damage (assisted only)

I Helped My Team.

 

You can do the same if you are thinking about what you can do to make a difference.  When this match started I honestly thought, "I'm so hosed.  There's very little I will be able to do."  Just after that, I literally asked myself, "What can I do to help my team win?"

 

I could have tried to face those two guys on my own.  They could have overrun me easily if they had just pushed and I would have been out of the game almost immediately.  I could have attempted an immediate retreat, leaving more map in the control of Red Team and exposing myself to fire by units I couldn't shoot at while retreating (unless I was backing up, which is dreadfully slow in the JagdPanther).

 

Instead, I held my ground, did my best to not get shot, spotted for my team and withheld Red Team from gaining more Map Control.

 

It's not always about how big your gun is, how much armor you have or how fast your tank is.  It is sometimes a game of human psyche, knowing your opponent is not confident or is appropriately very confident and making a choice to not toss away your tank or your tiny advantage when it shows itself to be there with you.

 

Sometimes you're going to get creamed.  This tank in the wrong spot, meeting the wrong tanks on the wrong map, etc. and you're toast.

 

The point is that you are not toast until you choose to give up the battle or until they turn on the burners. Until then, you're a loaf of bread that can help sustain your team's momentum, position or advantage.  In holding those two tanks where they were, Arty and two other direct fire units with a better shot and more cover provided me all the firepower necessary to keep those two at bay.  During all that, my team was cleaning up in the middle and along the East side, such that those two tanks were surrounded and toasted instead.

 

It won't always work, but you're ALWAYS better off thinking, "What can I do that will help my team?"  Important hint: it should rarely, if ever, involve purposely losing your tank to enemy fire. 

 

 

Don't despair!  Make some sort of a plan and do your best.

 

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



Allf #2 Posted Nov 16 2021 - 23:55

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Kudos, you said it exactly as it is and good job on that win. +1

 

Uncle_Mikes_tank #3 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 01:32

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That's all fine, and considering what you described, congrats, but I find it abhorrent that 80% of the time I'm bottom tier.  Useless.  And no I am not firing "gold" aka premium rounds, they eat your silver.  So game after game I'm nothing but a target.  Bounce bounce bounce.  Winning the game but losing silver is a massive loss, so not interested in firing gold.  If it were only occasionally that bottom tier occurred, no big deal, but when nearly all games are, it's  very disappointing.  Give me some +2 so I can have some fun.

mongoosejake #4 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 03:40

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I've always felt and will always standby my motto of "you're never useless unless you let yourself become useless".

 

Being bottom tier on your team simply means that the enemy also has bottom tier tanks. In the case of a three tier spread game, and you're bottom tier, there's also plenty of mid tiered tanks that you're capable enough of fighting. 

 

Try to focus on the tanks you can damage/spot effectively, those enemy bottom or mid tier when possible. When that situation doesn't present itself, you play wise and do what you can to contribute. 

 

Also, it helps to play tanks that are highly effective when bottom tier. A couple of my absolute favorite tanks (Nashorn and Panther) don't care one bit to be bottom tier. They have the pen and accuracy to punch through anything they encounter with few exceptions and that's without requiring premium ammo to do so. 



Draschel #5 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 03:47

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when people complain about being bottom tier, it is a plea of helplessness. And I understand it fully. The amount of thought and second guessing I place 2 tiers down, far outweigh any benefits from the actual result of the game unless its the rare actual 3rd mark in itself. 

Likewise, to be fair and not self-centered, the amount of thought and any second guessing at all? When two tiers above? This is an issue to, and the simplest fix is to remove these instances of struggle, when 2 tiers down. And remove these instances of boldness and invincibility, when two tiers above. 

 

People do not remark that you CANNOT contribute to a team effort, two tiers down. But it is needlessly hard and extremely punishable. And of course just about everyone can contribute, very easily, two tiers above. Even without a good skill base. And even without a good tank.  And thats why it is important to get rid of these extremes. When it is too hard, or when it is too easy. +/1-/1  is what we need

 



Markd73 #6 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 04:21

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View PostUncle_Mikes_tank, on Nov 17 2021 - 00:32, said:

That's all fine, and considering what you described, congrats, but I find it abhorrent that 80% of the time I'm bottom tier.  Useless.  And no I am not firing "gold" aka premium rounds, they eat your silver.  So game after game I'm nothing but a target.  Bounce bounce bounce.  Winning the game but losing silver is a massive loss, so not interested in firing gold.  If it were only occasionally that bottom tier occurred, no big deal, but when nearly all games are, it's  very disappointing.  Give me some +2 so I can have some fun.

Maybe focus on shooting at lightly armored targets at your own tier. If you really are lower tier 80% of the time then you should have plenty of equal tier enemies to fight.



Kramah313 #7 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 04:32

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I try to make a point of messaging someone when I feel like they had a statistically poor but very important role in the game. Usually tell them something like the stats won’t tell the story but you really helped us win that game. Thanks! Those kind of games can be fun sometimes for sure. 



FoggyLogic #8 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 11:17

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Everyone has those bottom tier games where you do your best, even when being conservative and careful, and get vaporized within minutes or do f-all damage. Just how it goes.

 

And sometimes there are those games where there just is not a useful place for you to go which is frustrating. There is almost always a useful place for you to go, even just as backup or spotting, but occasionally there just...isn't. You flex back and forth and just can't find a spot where you can contribute.

 

If I have one rule for games like those, it's to be patient and survive. I think a lot of bottom tier players get impatient and throw  themselves into harm's way too early and pay the price.  The useless bottom tier tank can come into it's own in the mid-game or end-game. I've had a few games where I spent the first third of the game being useless only to end up with top damage and a fistful of kills at the end. When the teams are winnowed down you have more room to move, more flanking opportunities, more side shots where you can do damage. Watch the minimap and look for positions that you can capitalize on. Not guaranteed if you survive but at least you're in the game when the opportunity presents itself.



dunniteowl #9 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 15:46

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View PostFoggyLogic, on Nov 17 2021 - 04:17, said:

Everyone has those bottom tier games where you do your best, even when being conservative and careful, and get vaporized within minutes or do f-all damage. Just how it goes.

 

And sometimes there are those games where there just is not a useful place for you to go which is frustrating. There is almost always a useful place for you to go, even just as backup or spotting, but occasionally there just...isn't. You flex back and forth and just can't find a spot where you can contribute.

 

If I have one rule for games like those, it's to be patient and survive. I think a lot of bottom tier players get impatient and throw  themselves into harm's way too early and pay the price.  The useless bottom tier tank can come into it's own in the mid-game or end-game. I've had a few games where I spent the first third of the game being useless only to end up with top damage and a fistful of kills at the end. When the teams are winnowed down you have more room to move, more flanking opportunities, more side shots where you can do damage. Watch the minimap and look for positions that you can capitalize on. Not guaranteed if you survive but at least you're in the game when the opportunity presents itself.

 

This post pretty much encapsulates the 'bottom tier dilemma.'  Sometimes you're just going to be:

In the "wrong" tank.

 

Wrong tank for the map you're on -- your tank and it just don't 'fit' very well.  You're too slow, too lightly armored, don't have the gun depression for a nice 'hull down' spot, don't have enough 'punch' to your gun, etc.

 

However, if you play by the: Mantra For Play above, you know what you have to attempt to do and to attempt to do it IN ORDER.  That Mantra is a "guide post" to prioritizing your actions in a match.

 

If you are bottom tier and 'can't do anything' at the start of the match the ONE THING you CAN do is SURVIVE.  The longer you survive, the more chances you have to get some damage in.  As importantly, the longer you survive, that's the fewer HPs Red Team gets to add to it's 'score' during the match.  But you cannot survive IF you do not believe that your presence in the match is 'worth' anything.

 

As pointed out above, patience is key.  If you do not think you can do anything and you do not think your presence is worthwhile in a match, you're right, when borrowing from Will Rogers' advice and perspective.  If you DO think you can do SOMETHING and you DO THINK your presence is not only worthwhile, but ESSENTIAL to the outcome in some fashion, then you won't foolishly or impatiently run into the Red Team's firepower and toss your tank to them for free.

 

Sometimes, you're going to get creamed.  Sometimes, no matter how hard you work it, you're going to fail.  That's the nature of a game where a majority of folks lose a bit more than they win.  How could it not be that and have that last bit be true, right?  That's the 'cold, hard logic' of this game.  You're going to lose more in this game than you will in most games unless and until you acquire enough skill, knowledge and patience to win a bit more than you lose.

 

Think of it like this: Even a 60% player loses 40% of the time.  A 50% player loses half the time.  If you're below 50%, you're going to have to be okay with losing in the sense that it doesn't 'get you down' or discourage you all that much.  That's just how this game is.

 

However: If you have given up in a match before you really get started, you are more likely to lose that match than if you did your best to:

 

Survive

Do Damage

Help Your Team

 

Being positive or at least WILLING to make the attempt to do your best at all times WILL improve your odds, because you are now placing yourself into a different mindset.  A mindset that tells you to keep at it, keep trying, don't give up and don't stop doing your best to do those things in that mantra.

 

In a game like this, even that 'game attitude' is going to see you lose a lot, considering the nature of this game.  So you got to keep a handy pocket full of hope, determination and some optimism tossed into all that to see you through those unsuccessful outcomes.  That 'game attitude,' though, will allow you to manage a few more wins out of your totals of play that will improve your success rate as far as winning matches go.

 

I do NOT try to be the 'hero' of most matches.  I spend most of my time before the countdown timer starts (during the load screen and while watching that timer count to "0" before match start) planning what I intend to do.  I look at the team compositions, I examine the map I'm about to play (I have my "Load Screen" set to display the Mini-Map, so I see where I'm going to play before I load into the match) and I do my best to plan where I can reach that will get me as close to Red Team as possible before making contact that I consider relatively 'safe' in that it provides me cover, LoS and LoF such that I can 'cover' an area of the map that, barring overwhelming odds, I CAN hold, by myself if needs be.  Or a place that I can cover multiple LoS's on the map within my view such that I can provide side fire or cross fire to other units spotting tanks in their sectors of the map that I can support.

 

There are going to be times when, lo and behold, the end game is nigh and you and nothing but more 'bottom tier useless tanks' are all that's left of your team and pretty much their team, too.  If you had not survived to this point, the game would probably already be over.  That next gun down could be the end of the match, but as long as you are there to participate, then you have a chance to make a positive outcome of what might be another loss.  If you're not there, that's just not possible, is it?

 

It's all about your perspective.  It's all too easy to get 'demoralized' and start thinking, "Oh, what's the use of even playing?"  Honestly, if that's your mind set at the moment, make that match your last match of your current session.  Take a break, you're triggered by something and you absolutely cannot play your best when you press "Battle!" with defeat high in your mind.  You just can't, because you're already demoralized and discouraged such that you aren't really willing to give it your best, even if you think you are.  You can't, you have defeat firmly implanted in your head as the outcome.  There's no 'will' to step up and overcome at that point and you are NOT going to play your best.

 

 

About four months into this game, I had a 'sea change' of attitude.  I let the defeats, chat messages and commentary by both sides (when all chat was still a thing) further 'program' me to believe that MM, Gold Rounds, Seal Clubbers, Platoons of Stat Padders, being Bottom Tier, etc, all condition me to believe that there really wasn't much I could do other than submit to the inevitable.  I almost quit playing the game altogether.

 

Then I realized that all that conditioning of listening to others spout off their frustration and dismay affected me negatively.  I started seeing only losses, bad teams, poor choices by others and myself causing loss after loss after loss.  I stopped having any fun.

 

Before all that happened and when I was ignorant of all those factors, I was having fun.  I wasn't winning any more then than I was while I was not having fun, except that I didn't have that attitude that I was pretty much going to lose no matter what I did, because too many things were killing me that were beyond my control.

 

So I purposely self corrected.  I decided that I was having fun when I was doing my utmost to stay alive, do damage and attempt to come out with the "W" at the end of the game.

 

Instead of focusing on the things I wasn't liking or didn't appreciate, I started purposely making myself look for the good players, the good plays, regardless of which side of the game they were on.  I decided that, if all those things were outside of my control, then I couldn't expect ANY CHANGES for me to come from those things.  There was only ONE PLACE that I could look to improve my situation:

 

                                                                                                Me.

 

I was the ONLY THING I had any control over during the game.  My skill had to improve if I was going to have a better experience during matches.  My attitude would have to sustain me during bad streaks and bad runs of games.  My desire to do better than last time, do better next time, do as well as I can all the time meant that I was going to have to find a more productive and positive way to view my playing in the first place.

 

Damnit, most importantly, I was here to HAVE FUN!  You can't have fun if you are too busy seeing the negative.  If you are too busy being demoralized, you simply have no incentive to play better.  If you spend all your time blaming, finger pointing and "I could have done better if it weren't for [insert excuse, rationalized point of view or list of things here]" levels of 'reasons why' you couldn't this time, then that's going to be the focus of your thinking.

 

Isn't it hard to have fun when all you can see is the negative, the 'wrong' things in the game and only the 'bad' parts of your teams, MM, maps, etc?

 

I mean, if you're not having some fun, then why are you bothering to play?  And if you adopt an attitude of blame, despair and helpless hopelessness, HOW CAN YOU ENJOY ANY OF THIS?

 

Did I mention I was here to have fun?  I still am, after seven years of relatively mediocre play overall, I'm still having fun.  It's not that I don't care.  I care very much about winning.  However, I play this game as I was taught to play all games and sports: Do your best, focus on being a better player at every opportunity, play with a sense of sportsmanship and never take it personally.

 

That doesn't mean I always succeed at those things.  I fail at them a LOT LESS now than before I had my attitude adjustment.

 

The OP was intended to show folks that, sometimes, you have to be willing to 'stick it out' long enough to outlast your opponents.  Sometimes it takes real grit and determination to maintain your sense of cool under pressure.  You have to be willing to consider options beyond surrender and a feeling of helplessness and decide that Goliath isn't getting you, your name's "David," damnit -- at least until you're out of the game.  

 

Be ready to see a lot of losing.  Don't plan for it, just recognize it's out there, hiding behind every team composition, map, tiering and all the relatively random crap that can go on in the game.  It doesn't mean you have to welcome it, just don't fear it or let it make you lose your resolve to do your best to make Red Team pay for coming after you, because, by golly gosh, you're not a loser if you fail, you're only a loser when you give up or quit.  Anything else just means you weren't successful, but that doesn't mean you're actually a 'loser.'  You just lost that match.

 

It's a game.  Remember that.

 

Games are nothing more than artificially created conditions designed to limit your actions, provide you challenges to overcome and to do so within the confines and context of that game.

 

Most folks don't come to the forums to read long posts.  I never let that stop me from making them.  If you are interested in learning more about how to do well in the game, I'm all for it.  I think the time to learn, maybe especially from a longer, more thought out, post is well worth it.  When I made the change to play for fun and have that fun while doing better than I was, I spent a LOT of time reading long posts, guides, tutorials, watching videos and absorbing the opinions, advice and tutelage that was being offered by better players -- more thoughtful ones who were willing to take their time to attempt to educate, elaborate and inform any others willing to take that time.


I don't regret ANY of that time spent learning how the game works or how to better my play.  It's taken me from losing more than I win to winning more than I lose and it was NOT an accident, luck or due to me having the best technology, most money and bestest stuff.  I had none of that beyond the 'luck' part going for me.  And luck alone isn't enough to account for the difference that I have had since I changed how I see the game and my role in it.

 

 

I am a 100% Free To Play Player.  I have not spent a single penny on this game.  I have an old computer that was made in 2010 to play on.  I get on average, about 6 frames per second due to the age and type of graphics chip in my laptop.  I have rural wireless internet.  It's BEAMED to my home from almost five miles away, so lag and variable ping is my environment most days.  Some of my keys don't work so great, my daughter's cat jumped up during a match about four years ago and clawed off the W, A, Left Shift, Alt and 1 keys when he did.  During a match.

 

Since 'fixing' that, some of my keys just don't work as well as they used to.  Other keys, due to excessive use by me, I suppose, are not working as well as I'd like and sometimes that creeps into my play as well.

 

So it's not like I have all these 'advantages' that other players can point to and say, "That's way better than my stuff, I get why you do as well as you do."

 

I do as well as I do with my stuff, BECAUSE of my attitude about the game and my attitude about play in general.  Take the time to learn the rules, the mechanics, the tips, tricks, tactics and techniques that WORK as told you by others that have proven that they do.  Spend some time reflecting on your actions in a battle, maybe especially in a loss that ended quickly for you and ask yourself, "What could I have done that would have made that come out differently?"

 

Be honest with your skill, knowledge and level of ability in the game.  If you don't like where you sit in that, then IMPROVE it.

 

 

Remember: This game is 100% "You can ONLY do YOU."  So if you want things to get better, improve or feel more in control, it is going to 100% have to come from YOU.  It's the ONLY THING you have control over and thus, it's the only place to seek improvement in your situation.  That's the logic of this game as well.

 

 

I didn't learn all that to brag.  I didn't learn all that to be superior.

 

I just wanted to have more fun while I played.  That's all I was looking for when I decided to play better.  I was looking to have more fun and, each time I check, I still find that winning is more fun than losing overall.

 

It's entirely up to you.  You can feel helpless, useless and give up before the match starts, pulling your team down by one tank before the timer hits "Zero," or you can do your level best to:

 

Survive

Do Damage

Help Your Team.

 

 

It's your call.

 

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Nov 17 2021 - 15:51.


CamaroSS_2015 #10 Posted Nov 17 2021 - 18:04

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View PostUncle_Mikes_tank, on Nov 17 2021 - 01:32, said:

That's all fine, and considering what you described, congrats, but I find it abhorrent that 80% of the time I'm bottom tier.  Useless.  And no I am not firing "gold" aka premium rounds, they eat your silver.  So game after game I'm nothing but a target.  Bounce bounce bounce.  Winning the game but losing silver is a massive loss, so not interested in firing gold.  If it were only occasionally that bottom tier occurred, no big deal, but when nearly all games are, it's  very disappointing.  Give me some +2 so I can have some fun.

 

You are not alone... ever since 1.14 I find myself in more -2 situations (70%). Now to be fair, at that same time I moved up to more T6/T7 battles so maybe that is just the make up of these tiers... If I play T4, most of the time they are +/- 1 so at least the odds are better.

 

As other have said, and to support the OP, there are things you can do.. If I'm a heavy/mid, I fall behind and follow the +2 tanks... My role is to shoot the tracks of the +2 so that my tanks can finish them off... as a TD.. I still hang back.. but I don't try and shoot at +2 unless I have a great shot that will pen.

 

While I will not earn credits (usually) as a -2, I do find that there are things you can do to help the team... When you see that you are -2, just give a heavy sigh and change your strategy to account for that. Don't get frustrated....just expect you'll always be bottom tier and get spammed with gold.. then anything better just puts a smile on your face.. this is how I now look at this game and it did help.

 

joe...



Trakks #11 Posted Nov 25 2021 - 18:10

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And another demonstration of why win rate is a useless stat that has nothing to do with how good you are. You can get literally zero damage, and still get a win as long as your team carries. Teams win, individuals don't.

Edited by Trakks, Nov 25 2021 - 18:10.


dunniteowl #12 Posted Nov 25 2021 - 21:40

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View PostTrakks, on Nov 25 2021 - 11:10, said:

And another demonstration of why win rate is a useless stat that has nothing to do with how good you are. You can get literally zero damage, and still get a win as long as your team carries. Teams win, individuals don't.

 

Umm, that's WHY Win Rate is the ultimate arbiter of overall skill.  You cannot 'coast' your way to a good WR.  If you have a good WR (I consider mine to be JUST slightly above average) and all of your other stats indicate you aren't a 'serious' damage dealer or some such, it's STILL not an accident.

 

You cannot accidentally get past 48%, you have to be trying.  In fact, you have to be trying to some degree to get past 45% on purpose.  That said, until you have managed to consistently achieve a WR above 48%, you are something of a detriment to your team's chances to win, even if it's only a small amount.  So, until you can get to what amounts to a 'wash' (or an even split of W/L/D) of your WR, you are more dependent upon your Green Mates to help carry you through.

 

You may have lower than average damage, kills or spots and still have a higher than 50% WR.  This only means that you are finding some way to be effective that does not rely on how much damage is done, but where and when that damage takes place.  

 

You cannot use ONE metric to properly 'weigh' a player in this game or most any other game.  That said, if you were to use just ONE metric to make a rough estimate, WR is probably the best overall choice.  WR allows you to see if someone is 'making their bones' as an above average player, regardless of their other metrics.  Those other metrics help tell you what KIND of player they are and the WR allows you to determine how well that's working for that person.

 

 

If you're willing to be honest with your own stats, then you have to also learn to be honest with stats in general, inclusive of how you view other players.  Good stats overall indicates a level of skill that cannot be ignored as far as that goes.  If a WR is low and the other metrics are low, then you can make a good estimate of that player having trouble with some of the mechanics, concepts or game play actions.  So WR really is the overall best single metric you can use to quickly gauge your fellow players.  You just have to remember that it is not the end/all, be/all of a player in any single stat, though the WR stat points to a quick understanding of someone's general skill level, though not their specific strengths or weaknesses in playing the game.

 

Not capping on your post, you just happen to make a comment that I can elaborate from with regard to how stats ARE actually very useful.  They should not be used to bash players or to hold an ego 'edge' over someone.  They are merely metrics for gauging a player and how they might be playing their units.  If you use them for anything other than a comparison tool, then my opinion would be that you're misusing the stats.  Now, with an eye to 'how can I do that' or 'how much faith should I put in this person's opinion of the game' sort of perspective, stats can be useful to you to gain insight from other players and that's ONLY useful as a means to allow you to give yourself a 'snapshot' of how someone may 'see' the game from their position.

 

Beyond that, they're lots of numbers out of any meaningful context.  You don't have to care about stats, however you should be aware that they are there, they have many potential uses for your benefit and can also be misused to demean, belittle or deride players.  If that is being done beyond their contextual use, then it's a misuse of them.

 

Stats are there for YOU to gauge YOU, even if you're comparing yourself to someone else, it should be being done for YOUR benefit, not as a means to attempt to 'harm' another player.

 

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO



Ehrlichmann #13 Posted Nov 26 2021 - 06:36

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Just another example of what YOU do does not determine success or failure - its the side AS A WHOLE (psst, team)

 

This is why the game is designed with 15 vs 15(cough)(minus the afk/suicide/bots/double-reds/back line humper/etc) and not  1 vs 1!!!



Trakks #14 Posted Nov 26 2021 - 11:36

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View Postdunniteowl, on Nov 25 2021 - 15:40, said:

 

Umm, that's WHY Win Rate is the ultimate arbiter of overall skill.  You cannot 'coast' your way to a good WR.  If you have a good WR (I consider mine to be JUST slightly above average) and all of your other stats indicate you aren't a 'serious' damage dealer or some such, it's STILL not an accident.

 

You cannot accidentally get past 48%, you have to be trying.  In fact, you have to be trying to some degree to get past 45% on purpose.  That said, until you have managed to consistently achieve a WR above 48%, you are something of a detriment to your team's chances to win, even if it's only a small amount.  So, until you can get to what amounts to a 'wash' (or an even split of W/L/D) of your WR, you are more dependent upon your Green Mates to help carry you through.

 

You may have lower than average damage, kills or spots and still have a higher than 50% WR.  This only means that you are finding some way to be effective that does not rely on how much damage is done, but where and when that damage takes place.  

 

You cannot use ONE metric to properly 'weigh' a player in this game or most any other game.  That said, if you were to use just ONE metric to make a rough estimate, WR is probably the best overall choice.  WR allows you to see if someone is 'making their bones' as an above average player, regardless of their other metrics.  Those other metrics help tell you what KIND of player they are and the WR allows you to determine how well that's working for that person.

 

 

If you're willing to be honest with your own stats, then you have to also learn to be honest with stats in general, inclusive of how you view other players.  Good stats overall indicates a level of skill that cannot be ignored as far as that goes.  If a WR is low and the other metrics are low, then you can make a good estimate of that player having trouble with some of the mechanics, concepts or game play actions.  So WR really is the overall best single metric you can use to quickly gauge your fellow players.  You just have to remember that it is not the end/all, be/all of a player in any single stat, though the WR stat points to a quick understanding of someone's general skill level, though not their specific strengths or weaknesses in playing the game.

 

Not capping on your post, you just happen to make a comment that I can elaborate from with regard to how stats ARE actually very useful.  They should not be used to bash players or to hold an ego 'edge' over someone.  They are merely metrics for gauging a player and how they might be playing their units.  If you use them for anything other than a comparison tool, then my opinion would be that you're misusing the stats.  Now, with an eye to 'how can I do that' or 'how much faith should I put in this person's opinion of the game' sort of perspective, stats can be useful to you to gain insight from other players and that's ONLY useful as a means to allow you to give yourself a 'snapshot' of how someone may 'see' the game from their position.

 

Beyond that, they're lots of numbers out of any meaningful context.  You don't have to care about stats, however you should be aware that they are there, they have many potential uses for your benefit and can also be misused to demean, belittle or deride players.  If that is being done beyond their contextual use, then it's a misuse of them.

 

Stats are there for YOU to gauge YOU, even if you're comparing yourself to someone else, it should be being done for YOUR benefit, not as a means to attempt to 'harm' another player.

 

 

 

GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO

 

 

And yet the OP has 2 players on his team who demonstrated ZERO skill, but got wins anyway. Leaving out the rare draw, that leaves you with two possible outcomes per match. Win, or lose. You have a 50% chance of adding to your winrate, just by showing up, even if you do nothing but sit back at the cap until the enemy comes and destroys you. Where is the skill? You're probably one of the same players who comes on here complaining about how your TEAM sucked when you lost. If teams are responsible for losses, then how can they not also be responsible for wins? 


Edited by Trakks, Nov 26 2021 - 12:08.


dunniteowl #15 Posted Nov 26 2021 - 18:20

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You still don't get it.  WR is the best gauge to get an 'estimate' of a player's chance to be a positive impact on your team.  There's nothing I can add to what I said just above.  If you don't get it, you simply don't get it.

 

You cannot discount the skill of a player.  Sure, there are folks with zero direct damage.  Spots, assisted damage from critical hits and sometimes JUST BEING WHERE YOU ARE, because you're in the right spot for the situation.

 

These are what your WR helps you estimate when you do not see someone with a high damage game, or even if you see folks with a zero damage game.  We all recognize there are going to be games that, no matter what, you simply will not lose.  By the same token, there are going to be games that, no matter what, you will not win.  Then there are the games that, based upon the overall skill you display CONSISTENTLY across your games, YOU may be the key to winning or losing.

 

The games that YOU have a potential influential impact due to your level of ability, skill and consistency amounts to approximately 40% of your total.  Approximately 30% of your games are going to be ones you won't win and another approximately 30% of games you won't lose are in that mix, leaving approximately 40% of all the games you play UP TO YOU to some degree.

 

Tell me, though, if you can:  WHICH of those games you load into are in that "You have a direct impact," category where your actions WILL influence the outcome?  Which ones will those be?

 

This is the rub and the reason that EXCUSING one's self from the equation is not only wrong, it's disingenuous, because to opt out of your skill and ability being important, you will ultimately be doomed to losing more than you have to do.

 

If you adopt an attitude or habit of, "I don't have any impact," for whatever reason, YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE MORE than you have to do.

 

Why?  Because this is the adopted attitude of the habitual loser.  The person who gives up before the situation even really starts is the kind of person I'm referring to now.  They look at the lineup, they see their tier position, they see the map, etc. and THEY GIVE UP BEFORE THE COUNTER HITS ZERO for start of match.

 

How do you 'recognize' these kinds of folks?  Well, they argue that they cannot contribute due to [insert rationalized 'reasons' here, usually compounded by a defeatist attitude that shows itself in the wording and language being used to indicate, "I'm not at fault, it's that thing [insert said 'thing' here] holding me back," sort of excuse laden 'arguments.']  You recognize them when they stress how much they don't care about winning or stats, yet continue to argue a point in that matter as if they actually DO care.

 

A Casual Gamer or Entertainment Over Skill Gamer (they are not the same) will simply NOT CARE to even have that discussion, BECAUSE they honestly do not care about that stuff.

 

Anyone that vests time and effort to 'make their point' in any discussion about how there's something YOU can do to make an impact, no matter what, who also indicates that such reasoning and explication show how they cannot make a difference, are folks that are actually CARING about their success/failure rates, but not enough to take the time to purposely attempt to make that impact a positive one.  Instead, they'd rather argue that 'this is a team game, so my success or failure isn't on me at all, like EVER,' while offering that those stats of other players don't matter at all.

 

They're wrong, of course, however this isn't about those folks.  This about what YOU can do to make a positive IMPACT on your play, EVEN IF YOU WIND UP DOING NO DIRECT DAMAGE.  Not you personally, Trakks, but YOU as in any individual who is sufficiently motivated to do their best, no matter what the situation and no matter who else is on your team.  There are choices you can make in those situations that do not include purposely tossing your tank to the Red Team.

 

Now if you want to just play the game and that whole win/lose thing isn't a deal for you, then you wouldn't be having this discussion, because you wouldn't care enough to vest any time in it.  <--- This is a general 'you' combined with a general 'truth' statement of human behavior, not my opinion of you, Trakks -- I wish to make that clear, BECAUSE I care how it is taken.  Just like I care about encouraging folks who wish to have more fun with the game to take not only time to learn more about the game, I also encourage them to consider factors that are YOU related when it comes to a 'game' attitude.

 

In short, I have seen the effects first hand of what being demoralized, triggered or negativized does to someone in the workplace and I have seen the same effects on sports fields galore over the course of life from 7 to 30 when I actively played team sports, most of which I was told I was "too small" to play.  Most games, however, don't need a size/mass requirement, just good hand/eye coordination and an ability to abstract some things in order to 'get on' with playing the game.

 

If a person doesn't care, they're not going to put out much effort beyond what engages them enough to hit "Battle!"  This is not a criticism, in large part, these are the folks WG would hope was it's 'target' demographic, because they are legion.  They're just here to blow crap up, get sent to the garage and if they win, fight a good battle, etc, even better, but mostly they just like driving around in their pixel tanks, firing the gun, and running over crap on these visually amazing digital landscapes.

 

If a person cares, but will not vest enough time to learn not only the game mechanics, but the mental dynamics of how one's attitude impacts one's own performance, then they are actually limiting their overall experience in the game.  That attitude will either seek to redress perceived failings by self improvement through directed effort or, conversely, engages in an unconscious personal campaign of making excuses, denial of interest, lacking time, having a life, etc, as the 'reason' they're not going to take that time to self-improve, while at the same time, engaging in enough time spent thinking and arguing how it's this, that or the other that prevents their better performance in the game, because of whatever reasonings they can make that they make clear their attitude is one that will not invest that time over using their 'get out of effort, free' card excuses.

 

Ultimately, each person is going to make their own choices.  What we place out there as ideas, thoughts and hopefully helpful advice in these forums are available for anyone to see.  Those who might connect with an idea or an attitude expressed will agree to whichever those ideas are that allow them to move in the direction they are most already inclined to travel.  That's just human nature in action as a general rule.  The same thing applies to perspectives of how one approaches a task, even if it's a leisure or playtime activity.

 

The more you are willing to seek improvement and advancement of skill, knowledge and experience, the more you would likely be to apply that even to learning to play a video game.  The entire premise of the OP is that, YOU can only do YOU and the you that YOU bring can and does make a difference.  And what level of difference you think YOU can do is also up to you and how you see or approach playing this game.


Instead of finding reasons why you can't, expend the effort instead on finding reasons why you can:

 

Survive

Do Damage

Help Your Team

 

That mantra is a very practical, results and logic driven set of basic instructions for playing this game.  Additionally, they reflect an ATTITUDE that posits that these principles go beyond the physical and also provide a sort of mental approach that indicates one should always be attempting 1, 2 AND 3 as often as possible and that as long as 1 happens, you can do 2 and if you do 2 enough, you're also doing 3, however, as long as you do 1, you can do 2 and/or 3.  The moment you truly believe you cannot do 1, you will stop doing much of 2 or 3, because you will give up your tank under the attitude of, 'there's nothing I can do anyway...' and that loss of position, HP or potential spotter by default automatically increases the advantage of Red Team.  If you would rather win more than lose, then in addition to wanting to self-improve one's game knowledge, wouldn't one also wish to invest in an attitude of discovery, learning and determination to succeed at things, no matter the odds?

 

I was taught that if you want it better, make it better.  This game exemplifies how one's attitude expressed towards the game in general will shape one's perception of the experience playing the game as much or more than one's overall knowledge and skill does.


I encourage folks to learn more, improve their skills and to keep in mind that if you want team based play, then you have to be willing to be a team player even if you think no-one else out there will recognize it.

 

Yes, some games you will lose and there was probably nothing your efforts would have changed in the W/L outcome.  Do you really know which ones those are before the game starts?  Can you calculate which games are going to be the easy wins, the can't wins and the ones where you might have to step up and play?  Of course not, no-one can.

 

Which ultimately means that, if you want to win more, you have to do more than want it.  You have to seek it.  To do that you must commit, to some small degree, to recognizing that you must not know enough about something and the only way to fix that would be to figure that out first.  All my professional and personal life, that ability to seek answers instead of make excuses has made more of a positive impact than anything else.  This game is no different, honestly.

 

I believe it was Will Rogers who opined something to the effect of, "If you think you can't, you're right.  And if you think you can, you're right, too."  I would look this up, however someone with faster google reflexes and who don't rely on just their faulty memory will be sure to correct me if I'm mistaken, for which I am always grateful -- I don't mind being wrong, however I do mind remaining wrong.  The idea expressed is the important part: It speaks to one's attitude.

 

That's the whole point of the OP.  That I place this much effort and time to express these as I have only indicates that I care enough about others who also seek to improve to encourage them to develop the 'seeks improvement' attitude on one hand and on the other hand encourages them to seek a 'game attitude' expressed as a 'what can I do' mentality over an 'I can't do anything' one.

 

I express THAT attitude when I tell folks:

 

I ALWAYS want:

One More Second

One More Shot

One More Kill

One More Chance

 

and I'm willing to do my best to:
 

Survive

Do Damage

Help My Team

 

to get those things.

 

 

This game can wear you down if you let it.  I was ready to quit at one point, because I felt I just wasn't good enough at the game to enjoy playing it.  I found that my attitude was just like the ones I describe about those folks who 'make excuses' instead of 'seeks improvement' and I have been TRAINED to spot those differences in people and I still allowed myself to fall into that category of 'makes excuses.'  I'm not usually that guy.

 

So I changed course.  These sorts of posts and discussions are the result of that direction change.  I did it.  I personally changed my fun factor.  I win more.  I do more damage.  I get more kills.  I have many longer matches and I survive more often than before.  Oddly enough, all that actually adds up to having more FUN!

 

I have some games where I go out, seconds into first contact, I'm done.  We all do from time to time.  Sometimes too many times in a row.  We all have bad runs.  When I was 'making excuses' though, those 'runs' were longer and more negative than positive.  When I changed to 'seeks improvement' it was literally like a switch had been turned on and my overall experiences in the game went positive in a significant manner. 

 

I spend the same general amount of time playing now as I did back then.  I play on a craptop computer on a wireless network (see sig).  What I learned by taking the time to learn it, improved my play enough to allow me to do 'average' at this game.  I cannot claim any technical advantage or superior twitch reflexes at 6fps and a wonky ping that causes lags, packet loss, freezes and teleports on occasion.

 

The ONLY answer to me doing as well as I do is from what I have learned and applied, regardless of my technical potato-ness.  You will note, my signature indicates I don't play past tier V -- yet the OP is about a Tier VII TD.  I have been attempting to see if I can play those tiers with this rig. 

 

So far, I am still attempting to determine if it's ME or if I'm hitting a performance to experience wall.  I seem to miss more shots at higher tiers -- not shots I took and missed, but shots that I can't line up in what amounts to a slideshow level of change and so never even get to line them up.  It's proven to be pretty frustrating.  I am attempting to 'seek a solution' to it, though that has proven elusive so far.

 

Which brings me back to my OP.  There are folks complaining about being bottom tier from tier I to tier IX.  If you are not top tier a lot (and, face it, we are not top tier as much as we are bottom tier unless we play tier X exclusively) then it becomes harder to maintain a positive attitude simply due to the perception of having a harder 'uphill' climb more than something that feels more 'fair' or 'balanced.'

 

My OP was a sort of 'object lesson' for those who are still in the 'make excuses' side of things though who might be 'on the fence' of wanting to 'seek improvement' instead.  It is for those folks, especially the new folks, that these posts go out.  I don't Start very many threads.  The ones I do are usually intended to provide some form of encouragement or help.

 

Again, I intend none of my posting at this point as a personal indictment or classification, my words are intended to be taken in the general context of the discussion and not as any indication personally to anyone posting unless directly stated to be so by me.  I say pretty much what I mean and if I intend insult, I'll be pretty direct and obvious about it.  I prefer civility as much as possible, but I also appreciate being honest when it comes to my interactions -- I do not intend to slight without making it clear, because I prefer things out in the open.

 

Hope that provides a basis for where I'm coming from.  If folks can see a benefit from achieving a certain sort of attitude that provides them a positive play impact, then I think that's a good thing.  I'm an optimist who happens to also be a cynic.  I see that many folks cannot or will not change or adopt new patterns unless they see a direct benefit to them and many things they could change do not provide immediately tangible results, especially when we consider that most folks think that change has to always be learning some new task or technique of physical sport/game related action and that the WAY one sees their approach to it in the first place is where the largest differences can be made right away.

 

At least it did for me.  So I have been promoting that since I had that happen.  It improved my fun factor a lot and as a side benefit, I won more, got more kills, did more damage, lived longer and all my other metrics went in the direction that indicated I had improved.

 

It wasn't an accident.  It wasn't 'out of my control.'  

 

This game is 100% "You can ONLY do YOU."

 

Why not do the best you that you can?  Are you doing that now?

 

 

 


GL, HF & HSYBF!
OvO


Edited by dunniteowl, Nov 26 2021 - 18:35.


FoggyLogic #16 Posted Nov 27 2021 - 14:47

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View PostTrakks, on Nov 26 2021 - 11:36, said:

 

 

And yet the OP has 2 players on his team who demonstrated ZERO skill, but got wins anyway. Leaving out the rare draw, that leaves you with two possible outcomes per match. Win, or lose. You have a 50% chance of adding to your winrate, just by showing up, even if you do nothing but sit back at the cap until the enemy comes and destroys you. Where is the skill? You're probably one of the same players who comes on here complaining about how your TEAM sucked when you lost. If teams are responsible for losses, then how can they not also be responsible for wins? 

 

Appears you do not have a good grasp on probability and statistics.

 

You do NOT have a 50% chance of winning just by showing up. Accounting for draws, the best you could possibly do is 48-49%, and since you're not contributing, game after game, over a statistically valid number of games (say a few hundred) your win rate is going to be significantly lower. It's why bots and truly bad players are down at 43-44%. It's not bad luck, or chance. It's the fact that they are handicapping their team through inaction. The game starts out 15 vs. 14.

 

There are plenty of players who have >60% win rates who never platoon and play high tiers exclusively. It's not luck that they can succeed on this level over the course of thousands of games. It's skill. That is demonstrated by other stats that reflect a player's quality such as wn8, PR, XP per game, etc. There is an undeniable correlation between these statistics. If you don't believe that, it's due to your ignorance about principles of probability and statistics. Here's a free online course to help you correct that.



Zapp__Brannigan #17 Posted Dec 03 2021 - 23:26

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View PostUncle_Mikes_tank, on Nov 17 2021 - 01:32, said:

That's all fine, and considering what you described, congrats, but I find it abhorrent that 80% of the time I'm bottom tier.  Useless.  And no I am not firing "gold" aka premium rounds, they eat your silver.  So game after game I'm nothing but a target.  Bounce bounce bounce.  Winning the game but losing silver is a massive loss, so not interested in firing gold.  If it were only occasionally that bottom tier occurred, no big deal, but when nearly all games are, it's  very disappointing.  Give me some +2 so I can have some fun.

Then you should be shooting the tracks out for your higher tier teammates. You get assist damage that way. You can rack up some pretty slick XP/credits that way






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