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[ S T ] More Chinese Heavy Tanks enter the Supertest

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KRZYBooP #1 Posted Sep 14 2022 - 21:05

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Howdy Boom Jockeys!

 

Dear friends, 

New Chinese heavy tanks are heading to the Super test very soon. Transitioning from the Type 58 medium tank, this branch will include four vehicles: 

Tier VII: BZ-58 

Tier VIII: BZ-166 

Tier IX: BZ-68 

Tier X: BZ-75 

After extensive and rigorous testing, we hope that these newly released vehicles will be interesting and unusual, while remaining balanced. 

 

Brief concept description 

This branch contains heavy assault tanks with strong hulls and well-sloped turret armor. Depending on the vehicle tier, these vehicles will have a choice between two guns: large caliber 122-152-mm guns, and super-large caliber 160-180-mm guns.  

Each gun requires a different style of game play and combat use, so make your choice based on your preferred play style. These heavy tanks will also feature convenient gun depression angles. 

Although vehicle mobility will be relatively low due to the vehicles' strong armor, this is where the new jet boosters mechanic will come into play. In real life, these devices were used to cross rugged terrains. With them, combat vehicles could quickly travel through dangerous areas or leave the line of fire. 

 

The first vehicle in the new Chinese branch to join the Super test will be the Tier VIII Premium BZ-176 tank. 

Spoiler

This vehicle has excellent armor characteristics, reaching 250 mm in the turret and boasting thick sides that make it a truly imposing fortress. 

Another distinctive feature of the BZ-176 is its 160-mm howitzer gun with good aiming time and dispersion, but a very long reload time. It also has an excellent –11 degrees of gun depression and a damage per shot of 1,100 HP with a standard shell, as well as 75 mm of penetration. The special shell deals 800 HP of damage and penetrates 225 mm of armor. 

In terms of mobility characteristics, the BZ-176 has a top speed of 30 km/h and a reverse speed of 15 km/h. Its specific power of 10.5 h.p./t. might not be outstanding, but keep in mind that the BZ-176 is the first heavy tank to be equipped with the jet booster mechanic. When activated, these boosters double the engine power and increase the top forward speed. 

At the start of the battle, the boosters will take 5 seconds to load and prepare for use (you'll be notified of this in a corresponding indicator bar). After that, the booster can be activated. Once activated, the tank will receive a brief boost to its engine power and top forward speed, as well as its initial momentum, allowing the heavy combat vehicle to accelerate. 

When jet boosters are in use, the vehicle will have difficulty turning and moving in reverse. You will not be able to cancel the effect until one charge is fully depleted. After that, you will need to wait 5 seconds until the boosters are reloaded. 

The boost effect will last 10 seconds and can be used up to 4 times per battle with the given amount of jet fuel. After the last use, the indicator will notify you of your empty fuel tanks and you will not be able to use the jet boosters for the remainder of the battle. 

When used correctly, this mechanic will allow you to quickly cross dangerous areas at critical moments in battle, ram lightly-armored targets more efficiently, or occupy key positions faster. Overall, there are plenty of ways to adapt this mechanic to your taste and play style. 

 

Every vehicle in the new Chinese branch will feature the jet booster mechanic. However, their exact configurations (i.e., the number and duration of uses per battle) has yet to be finalized. Stay posted!  

 

 



churchill50 #2 Posted Sep 14 2022 - 22:45

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Personally... not a fan. 

 

The rocket boost idea is interesting. Unique, and could make for a fun ramming build.

It's also nice to see China getting a new line. It's been a good 3-4 years since they got the Chinese TD's, if I'm not wrong.

 

But adding another line of hulldown heavies with good turret armor and great gun depression? And they're also able to sidescrape (at least going by the 150mm of side armor on the tier 8)? And giving them insanely high-alpha HESH guns as well? That sounds like the opposite of what the community wants. Personally, I'm really done with the hulldown meta, especially after the recent introduction of the Italian TD's.



grego34 #3 Posted Sep 14 2022 - 22:46

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Another distinctive feature of the BZ-176 is its 160-mm howitzer gun with good aiming time and dispersion ???

3.0 & 0.4 are not good. 

 

 


Edited by grego34, Sep 15 2022 - 01:19.


slayer6 #4 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 00:56

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I’m guessing that Additional Grousers and Turbo will be a thing for these - the acceleration of the Grousers and the multiplicative Turbo would combine very nicely…  The last slot could be a Spall Liner if you want a ramming build…

 

Additionally, the Oil or Removed Speed Governor (or even both!) might see some use, especially with the Turbo…  Increase the engine power by +32.5%?



mrmojo #5 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 00:59

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Means I'll have to build up xp on the Type 58 - hated that tank

Avalon304 #6 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 01:05

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View Postchurchill50, on Sep 14 2022 - 14:45, said:

Personally... not a fan. 

 

The rocket boost idea is interesting. Unique, and could make for a fun ramming build.

It's also nice to see China getting a new line. It's been a good 3-4 years since they got the Chinese TD's, if I'm not wrong.

 

But adding another line of hulldown heavies with good turret armor and great gun depression? And they're also able to sidescrape (at least going by the 150mm of side armor on the tier 8)? And giving them insanely high-alpha HESH guns as well? That sounds like the opposite of what the community wants. Personally, I'm really done with the hulldown meta, especially after the recent introduction of the Italian TD's.

 

Going to point out that theres nothing actually suggesting that the tech tree line will have:

 

A. specifically hull down heavies (tanks with -10 depression or greater).

 

B. High alpha HESH based guns.

 

All we know about the tech tree line if their potential gun caliber choices, that they will be armored and slower, and that they will all have the rocket boosters.

 

In fact given the wording, theres reason to suspect they tech tree tanks wont have high alpha HESH based guns, given the description of the premium's gun as a 'distinctive feature'.



Lord_Magus #7 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 01:26

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That's certainly a unique gimmick, but there seem like so many other lines that could be added that would be more interesting.

 

Plus, good gun depression is a very un-Chinese trait.



martingalindo #8 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 01:49

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And then the Type 5 was OP and was nerfed to the ground.


Fix the wheels instead of addding this tanks

 

 

 

 

View Postgrego34, on Sep 14 2022 - 18:46, said:

Another distinctive feature of the BZ-176 is its 160-mm howitzer gun with good aiming time and dispersion ???

3.0 & 0.4 are not good.

While 3 aiming is not good (its better aiming than other howitzers) 0,4 accuracy is actually really good for a howitzer


Edited by martingalindo, Sep 15 2022 - 07:35.


SpectreHD #9 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 14:54

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I think it is incorrect to call the gimmick jet boosters. They are more solid fuel rockets and judging by how they look on the Tier 8 premium, that's what they are. These things should create a ton of smoke and should cause negative camo rating when used.

 

Also how in the world can the Tier 8 prem get -11 GUN DEPRESSION with the rest of the line getting "convenient gun depression angle". Judging from the short turret of the  BZ-176, it should have at best -6 gun depression. And yet WG cannot give the T110E5 its rightfully stated -10 of gun depression? Seriously, the cupola is so tiny so good luck hitting anything when this thing uses


Seriously, is WG reeling money wise from losing the RU server they now want to milk as much via the CN server to compensate by making these ridiculous tanks with magical gun depression?

I also LOVE the forcing of using premium ammo to do any meaningful damage after nerfing standard HE in the BZ-176. Seems like WG has completely abandoned trying to change premium ammo despite implemeting the HE nerfs that was tested after whatever snafu & fubar proposal for premium ammo change. So now WG is continually digging deeper into the hole of fantasy over armouring just to not make tanks that are premium ammo food. Really, WG should take a look at all the derp tanks, Jumbo, T49, Sheridan, KV-2 etc etc since they nerfed HE. No sense to have horrible aim time, dispersion and even accuracy since they now require more aiming to use properly.

 

And with this new Chinese line, I expect a M60A2 (since after all these years WeeGee cannot do the Pershing Patton line justice and implement the M60A1), MBT-70, and KPz-70 lines for the US and German tech tree. And these tanks would actually get weakspots unlike whatever these line of Chinese mystical folklore vehicles would get.


Edited by SpectreHD, Sep 15 2022 - 15:12.


churchill50 #10 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 15:35

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 14 2022 - 17:05, said:

 

Going to point out that theres nothing actually suggesting that the tech tree line will have:

 

A. specifically hull down heavies (tanks with -10 depression or greater).

 

B. High alpha HESH based guns.

 

All we know about the tech tree line if their potential gun caliber choices, that they will be armored and slower, and that they will all have the rocket boosters.

 

In fact given the wording, theres reason to suspect they tech tree tanks wont have high alpha HESH based guns, given the description of the premium's gun as a 'distinctive feature'.

 

To quote from KRZYBooP's post:

View PostKRZYBooP, on Sep 14 2022 - 13:05, said:

Brief concept description 

This branch contains heavy assault tanks with strong hulls and well-sloped turret armor. Depending on the vehicle tier, these vehicles will have a choice between two guns: large caliber 122-152-mm guns, and super-large caliber 160-180-mm guns.  

Each gun requires a different style of game play and combat use, so make your choice based on your preferred play style. These heavy tanks will also feature convenient gun depression angles. 

Although vehicle mobility will be relatively low due to the vehicles' strong armor, this is where the new jet boosters mechanic will come into play. In real life, these devices were used to cross rugged terrains. With them, combat vehicles could quickly travel through dangerous areas or leave the line of fire. 

 

All of which suggests that the line will have:

A. Specifically hulldown heavies with good gun depression and good turret armor.

B. High-alpha (160-180mm) guns. We don't know they'll be HESH based, sure. But I'd say that's a pretty safe bet.



Mikosah #11 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 19:00

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The rocket booster seems like an extraordinarily bizarre gimmick. Though using it does sound fun, I'm concerned about the balance implications. Should go without saying that durable heavies are conventionally balanced by low mobility. If not for the booster, this would be the case here and no one would have batted an eye. But having added thrust brings back flashbacks of when the wheeled tanks were added. It may need other means of counterbalancing, for instance as suggested by others, significantly reducing camo when the boost is active. Alternatively, increasing flammability when in use. 

 

As of the howitzers, the dilemma is that across the board the standard HE is extremely situational while the gold shell will either make or break the entire concept. See the performance of the Cobra as example of this. One solution would be to give it a third shell with very high penetration and much lower alpha. In the case of the BZ-176, the existing two shells are 1100/75 and 800/225. The third shell could be HEAT that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 550/290. Something consistent and reliable, but with a marked alpha disadvantage.

 

View PostSpectreHD, on Sep 15 2022 - 07:54, said:

I also LOVE the forcing of using premium ammo to do any meaningful damage after nerfing standard HE in the BZ-176. Seems like WG has completely abandoned trying to change premium ammo despite implemeting the HE nerfs that was tested after whatever snafu & fubar proposal for premium ammo change. So now WG is continually digging deeper into the hole of fantasy over armouring just to not make tanks that are premium ammo food. Really, WG should take a look at all the derp tanks, Jumbo, T49, Sheridan, KV-2 etc etc since they nerfed HE. No sense to have horrible aim time, dispersion and even accuracy since they now require more aiming to use properly.

 

^ I second the above quote.



martingalindo #12 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 20:56

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View PostSpectreHD, on Sep 15 2022 - 10:54, said:

Spoiler

 

Wg is really adding to much without making a rebalance of old tanks. Whats the need of a M46 with M47E1 turret with a fake 105mm as a tier 9 tank righ now?

I dont see any use of having that in 2022 WOT when they clearly broke the year limit rule. Buff the 90mm guns and make them viable drop M47E1 to tier 8 for example. Same for German JagdE100 line.


WG need to make a complete rework and rebalance of old lines not just buff and nerfs (but that also).



Avalon304 #13 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 23:29

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View Postchurchill50, on Sep 15 2022 - 07:35, said:

 

To quote from KRZYBooP's post:

 

All of which suggests that the line will have:

A. Specifically hulldown heavies with good gun depression and good turret armor.

B. High-alpha (160-180mm) guns. We don't know they'll be HESH based, sure. But I'd say that's a pretty safe bet.

 

None of those things describe specifically hull down heavies or HE/HESH based guns.

 

Strong armor just means their armor will be strong. Conveinent gun depression just means they wont have something like -5 or -6 depression, and a tank with -7 or -8 isnt a hull down heavy no matter which way you cut it. And the larger caliber of their guns doesnt, in any way, specify what sort of ammo they fire. Just looking at tanks in the game already, the 60TP fits all of the armor and gun depression statements, yet it isnt a hull down heavy tank.

 

Youre drawing a lot of assumptions from very little actual information, and youre letting the stats of the premium colour those assumptions.

 

View Postmartingalindo, on Sep 15 2022 - 12:56, said:

when they clearly broke the year limit rule. 

 

There hasnt been a year limit in WoT for like a decade now... its technology based.


Edited by Avalon304, Sep 15 2022 - 23:31.


martingalindo #14 Posted Sep 15 2022 - 23:40

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 15 2022 - 19:29, said:

There hasnt been a year limit in WoT for like a decade now... its technology based.

Still did not change my argument there are things outdated (in game balance meaning) for no reason,

example 1: M46 with fake 105, instead a more reasonable modern gun and ammo that was actually aviable for the m47,

Example 2: Ferdi with 128? for what reason


I understand that when this kind of things where added in wot like 10 years ago make sence, right now: No.

There are plenty of examples in up to mid tier to tier 8 aprox that could be fixed re-balanced, if it is  not done is because WG probably does not care.


Edited by martingalindo, Sep 16 2022 - 00:10.


churchill50 #15 Posted Sep 16 2022 - 00:56

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 15 2022 - 15:29, said:

 

None of those things describe specifically hull down heavies or HE/HESH based guns.

 

Strong armor just means their armor will be strong. Conveinent gun depression just means they wont have something like -5 or -6 depression, and a tank with -7 or -8 isnt a hull down heavy no matter which way you cut it. And the larger caliber of their guns doesnt, in any way, specify what sort of ammo they fire. Just looking at tanks in the game already, the 60TP fits all of the armor and gun depression statements, yet it isnt a hull down heavy tank.

 

Youre drawing a lot of assumptions from very little actual information, and youre letting the stats of the premium colour those assumptions.

 

I have several questions issues here...

First off, in your original quote you said:

View PostAvalon304, on Sep 14 2022 - 17:05, said:

In fact given the wording, theres reason to suspect they tech tree tanks wont have high alpha HESH based guns, given the description of the premium's gun as a 'distinctive feature'.

 

Which I had kind of brushed over. However, if you'll actually read KRZYBooP's post, you'll see that that does not refer to the premium's gun being distinctive compared to the tech tree tanks.

KRZYBooP is describing what is good about the tank, and then adds that "Another distinctive feature", meaning something that stands out about the tank, not a feature that would make it distinct from the tech tree tanks. So using that as an argument that the tech tree tanks won't have a similar gun is completely misleading.

 

Second, while good gun depression (and I would define anything higher than 8 degrees of gun depression as being good) or good turret armor alone don't make a good hulldown tank, when they're put together they most definitely do.

Your example of the 60TP doesn't make any sense at all. 8 degrees of gun depression + pretty good turret armor definitely make it a hulldown heavy. Especially since it can't sidescrape.

I don't know what your definition of a hulldown heavy is, but it definitely isn't the same as my definition. My definition would be "A heavy tank with enough gun depression (8+ degrees) and enough turret armor to play hulldown."

 

Finally, lets look at my assumptions:

I'm assuming, based off the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has good turret armor and KRZYBooP describes the line as having "good hull armor and well sloped turret armor", that the tech tree tanks will also have good turret armor.

I'm assuming, based off the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has 11 degrees of gun depression and the fact that KRZYBooP describes the line as having "Convenient gun depression angles", that the tech tree tanks will also have good gun depression.

Finally, I'm assuming, based on the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has a 160mm howitzer with characteristics that I don't think are good for the game (insane alpha HESH only being the most glaring of those issues), and the fact that all of the tech tree tanks will have similar or larger sized guns, that they'll all have guns that have similarly bad characteristics for the game.

Finally, I'm making all of these assumptions based on the fact that WG has, in recent memory, released premium tanks alongside new tech trees that match those tech trees' characteristics rather well. Examples: The Vipera with the Minotauro line, the M-IV-Y with the M-V-Y line, the Skoda T56 with the Vz 55 line, the Bisonte with the Rinoceronte line, etc.

So, I would say that it is a pretty safe bet that these tanks will have the gun depression and turret armor to be hulldown heavies, and will have guns that I don't think will be a good thing for the game. All of that is, in my mind, a perfectly rational assumption. Your assumptions, that the tech tree tanks will be completely different in every major gameplay aspect from the premium, are the ones that are questionable here.

 

But, I suppose we'll have to wait and see once the stats for the whole line are released. I'd be happy to continue this conversation further once that happens.

 



BianHong #16 Posted Sep 16 2022 - 05:46

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I am assuming the Type 5 Heavy line will get a buff (yay!) once they release the new set of Chinese heavy tanks.

Avalon304 #17 Posted Sep 16 2022 - 09:05

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View Postchurchill50, on Sep 15 2022 - 16:56, said:

 

I have several questions issues here...

First off, in your original quote you said:

 

Which I had kind of brushed over. However, if you'll actually read KRZYBooP's post, you'll see that that does not refer to the premium's gun being distinctive compared to the tech tree tanks.

KRZYBooP is describing what is good about the tank, and then adds that "Another distinctive feature", meaning something that stands out about the tank, not a feature that would make it distinct from the tech tree tanks. So using that as an argument that the tech tree tanks won't have a similar gun is completely misleading.

 

Second, while good gun depression (and I would define anything higher than 8 degrees of gun depression as being good) or good turret armor alone don't make a good hulldown tank, when they're put together they most definitely do.

Your example of the 60TP doesn't make any sense at all. 8 degrees of gun depression + pretty good turret armor definitely make it a hulldown heavy. Especially since it can't sidescrape.

I don't know what your definition of a hulldown heavy is, but it definitely isn't the same as my definition. My definition would be "A heavy tank with enough gun depression (8+ degrees) and enough turret armor to play hulldown."

 

Finally, lets look at my assumptions:

I'm assuming, based off the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has good turret armor and KRZYBooP describes the line as having "good hull armor and well sloped turret armor", that the tech tree tanks will also have good turret armor.

I'm assuming, based off the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has 11 degrees of gun depression and the fact that KRZYBooP describes the line as having "Convenient gun depression angles", that the tech tree tanks will also have good gun depression.

Finally, I'm assuming, based on the fact that the tier 8 premium tank has a 160mm howitzer with characteristics that I don't think are good for the game (insane alpha HESH only being the most glaring of those issues), and the fact that all of the tech tree tanks will have similar or larger sized guns, that they'll all have guns that have similarly bad characteristics for the game.

Finally, I'm making all of these assumptions based on the fact that WG has, in recent memory, released premium tanks alongside new tech trees that match those tech trees' characteristics rather well. Examples: The Vipera with the Minotauro line, the M-IV-Y with the M-V-Y line, the Skoda T56 with the Vz 55 line, the Bisonte with the Rinoceronte line, etc.

So, I would say that it is a pretty safe bet that these tanks will have the gun depression and turret armor to be hulldown heavies, and will have guns that I don't think will be a good thing for the game. All of that is, in my mind, a perfectly rational assumption. Your assumptions, that the tech tree tanks will be completely different in every major gameplay aspect from the premium, are the ones that are questionable here.

 

But, I suppose we'll have to wait and see once the stats for the whole line are released. I'd be happy to continue this conversation further once that happens.

 

 

So youre admitting youre making a lot of assumptions based on very little actual information? Well thats good to know.

 

Hulldown heavies are any tanks with -10 depression or greater, designed primarily for fighting on ridge lines or other hills. Of which yes the premium would qualify, but the as yet unknown tech tree tanks could or could not, armor not withstanding. Because your definition opens up several tanks that arent hull down heavies. The 111 5A could fit your definition of a hull down heavy tank.... but it clearly isnt. The 113 could nearly fit it. The 60TP is not a hull down heavy. It could be played as such, but it isnt is primary role to be one. I mean if you wanna be that generalized about it, than any tank with a good turret that can somehow hide its hull and fight is a hull down heavy (so the 277, the E5, the E 100, the Maus, and nearly every tier 10 heavy could be a 'hull down heavy' when they arent).

 

And no, even together good depression and good armor dont make a hull down heavy.

 

If the tech tree tanks were going to have high alpha HESH based guns, then the premiums gun wouldnt stand out at all. It wouldnt be distinctive to the tank if other tanks were going to have it. So youre right it doesnt specifically refer to the gun being distinctive from the tech tree tanks, but it does refer to it as being distinctive in general, which would include the tech tree tanks.

 

Lets look at your assumptions:

 

1. I mean we are just outright told the tech tree tanks will have strong hulls and good turrets, so thats not an assumption at all?

 

2. This one breaks down because your making an assumption based on no actual information other than "convenient" gun depression which is pretty much anything over -6 depression (and would be rather unique for China, even in this day and age). I agree they will likely have decent depression, but I cant currently say that they will be enough (-10 or greater) to qualify as hull down heavies. If they have -7 thats still pretty convenient gun depression, but far from hull down heavy territory.

 

3. This assumption breaks down because if they did have HESH based high alpha guns, the premiums gun wouldnt be distinct anymore. Just because a gun is large does not make it a given that they will be HESH based. This is a poor assumption to make. It also doesnt make sense to assume that they will have large alpha given that even within the heavy tank class alpha is pretty fluid for any given gun caliber. (440 vs 400 for 120s, 650 vs 750 for 152s, 490 vs 530 vs 560 on the German 128s etc).

 

I mean if we ACTUALLY look at the pattern of tier 8 premiums introducing lines, its the MECHANIC they share, not the entire characteristics.

 

T 56 shares the 2 shot autoloader, but isnt that similar otherwise. Its both slower and less armored overall.

 

Bisonte barely resenbles the ITA HTs with the exception of the unique autoreloading mechanic.

 

Prog 46 doesnt share much with the meds other than the autoreloaders (being both smaller and with a far better gun than any the tech tree tanks)

 

EBR 75 is a wheeled tank but doesnt really match the rest of the line with regards to its gun at all.

 

M-1V-Y shares the reserve track but plays pretty differently from he rest of the Yoh line otherwise.

 

Vipera is the closest, and even then its main comparison is the "ready rack" type autoloader. Its not so much the rest of the tank.

 

Actually the true closest would probably be the Strv S1.

 

 

View Postmartingalindo, on Sep 15 2022 - 15:40, said:

There are plenty of examples in up to mid tier to tier 8 aprox that could be fixed re-balanced, if it is  not done is because WG probably does not care.

 

Or it isnt done because its actually fine.



martingalindo #18 Posted Sep 16 2022 - 14:29

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View PostAvalon304, on Sep 16 2022 - 05:05, said:

Or it isnt done because its actually fine.

Its not because keep balance on this mix is getting harder and harder. And will keep on getting more harder. I can understand in some cases there are no better option, but in others its feels just a old concept of wot with the new concept of wot.

 

 

It is clearly not, but i understand it require a lot of effort from part of WG, will little reward for them (since most of players just focus on tier 10 and premium tier 8)

 


Edited by martingalindo, Sep 16 2022 - 14:30.


Mermaid_Witch #19 Posted Sep 18 2022 - 21:11

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Yay.  Rocket tanks.  Just what I always wanted.  Now how about an update to the Japanese nation?  We haven't gotten a new Japanese tank for the better part of a decade now.  To be blunt, I don't care if it's as real as your Czech heavy line or your Italian TD line, I want something new to play.

Lord_Magus #20 Posted Sep 19 2022 - 01:50

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View PostMermaid_Witch, on Sep 18 2022 - 21:11, said:

Yay.  Rocket tanks.  Just what I always wanted.  Now how about an update to the Japanese nation?  We haven't gotten a new Japanese tank for the better part of a decade now.  To be blunt, I don't care if it's as real as your Czech heavy line or your Italian TD line, I want something new to play.

I really can't understand why Japanese TD and LT lines haven't happened already. Or even an alternate HT line based on the fake heavies in Blitz.







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