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T110`s Armor

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SFC_Storm #1 Posted Nov 03 2011 - 23:38

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I wanted to start a thread about the T110`s Armor, I already did its Gun and a inside look at certain info I have available to me [Even though Chieftain, thinks it was different model, but it was same principle]
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Content Removed. Excessive Caps.
No RO.
P.S. This is a very good post that was well written, but I still gotta enforce the rules. +1 though, a worthy read. Keep it classy.
-aw_man

P.S
The T110 would have had SCA Armor assuredly especially since the only reason it wasnt used on the M60 was repair costs, at the point in 1959 when they made the new way of repping the SCA Armor which was totally impervious to 100mm [soviet HEAT] rounds they made the far cheaper M60 andso it was decided they were faster to make andwe were so damned worried about the number of T54`s we went for more numbers less Tech, but SCA WAS PLANNED FOR THE T110 and all T-Series tanks at that point but first you had to build a steel tank to do so which was never done.
Please give us a real T10 that has a real role, or dont and run the risk of losing alot of gamers and possibly the biggest gaming market in the world by 4 times the.... US
Im begging you because I love WOT but have seen to many games like this ignore small core fan bases and then watch the game crumble, I bet money even though the US has alot less players we spend alot more income on gold, we make 4-5x the disposable income as other countries alone. I dont wanna see WOT fail we want a fair balanced tank not a T34 style "Support" its ok that its 5% lower in Win ratio as others type tank.
To all that made this epic post possible
PS to all who asked main OP is now a spoiler and my ranting from my Phone replaced it for flare :smile:
And by flare I mean for
Bats and Spectre and Faust Oh Mow,
Onyx and Tea and CCC
Loos and Knight and Golden
Minds and Dean and Gigaton, Ninja
Wingman and Crimson and Rampage...
Aesir and ForceStorm
All these guys are forum gods IMO and shoud be added to any friends list +1`s you US tankers who want change have
ZiggyDeath gets honorable mention since he was the one who basically got me on the whole "Change the US Med line" with the T54 ruling so tightly the Devs made a thread "How to Kil la T54... lol That lead to "Change the broken US heavy line"
And to whoever I forgot Im sorry :sad: I will keep updating names, so keep checking if you are a Forum God.
And last but not least the CHief who my phone always capitalizes his name :smile:
Remember guys this thread is............Dare I Say
And Remember, to all the guys who keep saying its gonna be ok and let it be we are over reacting etc....What I learned most in my Almost 10 Yrs 5+ in combat Areas. More Military wisdom that carries over to WOT and life.....
"Lead.....Follow....Or Get Out Of The Way"
Message Ends
Also I was asked to post these
original T30 ->http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iE48jF2xL6o
new T110 ->http://www.youtube.c...2qSmpH7gHg&hd=1   
Note: This thread has been declared 'Legendary,'  is the social centre of the US Heavy Forum and is the focal point of  discussion about the (when the thread started) upcoming T110 and M103 tanks, and now most any other upcoming game information. It goes off-topic to  keep people amused whilst waiting for new on-topic information to be  released to be discussed. This thread is not for the faint of heart and  contains ponies: Be warned before diving in. - The Chieftain
If I could I would make sweet love to the Chief.
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Phosphorus #2 Posted Nov 03 2011 - 23:46

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Sooo much words.....

JK this is some nifty info tho. And you got this off "confidential" papers surprises me.
If all that you say is true, bye bye Russian bias. :P

GenericSoldier #3 Posted Nov 03 2011 - 23:55

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too much to read srry :(

SFC_Storm #4 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 00:02

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View PostPhosphorus, on Nov 03 2011 - 23:46, said:

Sooo much words.....

JK this is some nifty info tho. And you got this off "confidential" papers surprises me.
If all that you say is true, bye bye Russian bias. :P


Read the links

http://www.dtic.mil/...df&AD=AD0524050

Its all true....Now lets see the Devs deny this saying i twas US propaganda and USSR testing showed silacious Armor to be Penned by a 20mm AA Gun :)

Seriously I cant believe there theory on USSR having better testing than Germans or US or Brits...I really do ll everytime.

Yeah there city's were bombed to the ground [Stalhingrad, Leningrad etc] and they were being slaughtered wholesale by the Luftwaffe, and they took the 10% of there factories [That made tractors lol] Moved them on trains set them up in 10 days with slave labor and yet they still had an easy time producing the best steel and ammo for tests....ROFL Because we all know when you are being killed and losing children and being overrun while starving it important to use valuble ammo and valuble steel not for rediculous tanks and Ammo to kill your enemy, no way its for testing of course, theenemy can wait, and while the Germans had 0 threats in 1941-42 and had no one near there own country with there factories at 100% of course they were gonna rush tests and use crap ammo and faulty steel because they were so afraid of the enemy that was 2000 miles away....Lol think about it

SFC_Storm #5 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 00:04

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View PostGenericSoldier, on Nov 03 2011 - 23:55, said:

too much to read srry :(

Read bold parts...It summs it up

Where Steel armor was penned by 3.5 in rockets and 90mm tank guns with Heat rounbds 1/6th the Silacious Armor had the same effect at stopping it.

VS HE and HEAT it was 6 times better than Steel and vs AP was around 25% better.

Militant_Troll #6 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 00:09

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So, basically,it's a Glass Cannon...between 2 sheets of steel.  :P

iyaerP #7 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 01:28

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No, if they used the real world stats for this tank, it would be basically like having the armour of a Maus.

And the speed of an IS7.

And the gun of the T30.


Except the devs will never allow that to exist in game. For "historical reasons" of course.

SFC_Storm #8 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 02:58

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View PostiyaerP, on Nov 04 2011 - 01:28, said:

No, if they used the real world stats for this tank, it would be basically like having the armour of a Maus.

And the speed of an IS7.

And the gun of the T30.


Except the devs will never allow that to exist in game. For "historical reasons" of course.


Not maus just m48 patton with 9ish tons more and the glass armor.

If it where a 65-70 ton tank with glass then yeah but its not, its basically m60 with glass armor and 120mm

It will work out to be is4 armor but alot faster because lighter hull but as strong because its 15 tons less

Gary007 #9 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 03:43

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Good read thank you for your time to supply this type of information it helps to know what this tanks place should be and I think they (dev) know this information and have to work it into the game. I don't think this tank in game will be a nerf of what its real life counter part was. trust me because they will rebalance the russian tree lol

SFC_Storm #10 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 03:50

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We US guys need to keep pushing hard for what is rightfully a T10 Heavy and not a TD/T30 with a Hull that can be killed by a Ez8.

IS4 armor+Amazing Turret+Good speed but better accel.

Batosi #11 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 06:15

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View PostiyaerP, on Nov 04 2011 - 01:28, said:

No, if they used the real world stats for this tank, it would be basically like having the armour of a Maus.

And the speed of an IS7.

And the gun of the T30.


Except the devs will never allow that to exist in game. For "historical reasons" of course.

I understand this point and agree which also supports that WoT has a limited scope of game play as to what it can work with.

From what I have read from Dev Blogs, it will be highly mobil, decent armor but didnt sound as tought as either the Russian or German line, with a low Alpha, High Pen, High RoF Gun which in reality will produce a mobil tank that will have have less Armor but will be highly Peek a Boo challanged do to combined Tactical capeability of the Gun and Armor.

Which is why I believe, which is not over the top, the above makes up for it easily, that a natural resistance to HE is in order for its surviability.  Artillery and HE is VERY much apart of the core of this game and if the other Tanks already have the Brick and Mobil and high damage areas covered, this is the last area that WoT has the ability to explore within the games scope and which there is actual data to support.  A 15% to 25% natural resistance + spall linger for those that choose, would not be OP considering it will still be heavily challanged on AP vs Armor.  

It will just add different nich in the area of combat for this Tank and it will need it for the Gun design they will give T110 will force it to Peek a Boo far more often then any other Tank and force it to susceptible to several Tanks and Artillery.

No Tank can be the best at everything and many areas are already covered by other Tanks and I am sure the Tanks coming out, this one area is within the scope of the game and something this Tank deserves, it allows WoT a wider range to work within.  All nationals love to see their Tank to be Top, but nobody can truely be Top and still make it fun for everyone else, this opens a door for WoT to explore give everyone some pride in their nations Tank.

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Onyx #12 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 07:46

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That's pretty interesting.  I'm curious if the devs care about authenticity enough to give this tank the values for armor it deserves to have, or if they're going to destroy this silicious core concept in favor of assuming it's RHA like every other tank in the game for balance purposes.

I don't know.  The devs have made it a point of fact to spit in the eye of historical values (the German guns are the most obvious place they do it, American guns have a similar issue, Russian guns seem to get better values than they should as well) so it's unlikely the historical truth will phase them when it comes to this tank.

But, honestly, I don't want an imbalanced tank.  I want a tank that's fun and fair to use and, ideally, a medium tank on crack but with good old American advantages such as naturally high Fire on the Move accuracy and a turret that's hideously difficult to fight against front-on. (At least, advantages within this game)

A bonus against explosive damage would be very nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.  Either way, in the end, the devs have done a largely good job of balancing this game, and that's all I'm really after, even if they fuzz a lot of the statistics or actual performance values to favor gameplay over realism.

I just wish said fuzzing didn't innately lead to the Russians having better tanks than they actually had time and again.

Batosi #13 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 09:08

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View PostOnyx, on Nov 04 2011 - 07:46, said:

That's pretty interesting.  I'm curious if the devs care about authenticity enough to give this tank the values for armor it deserves to have, or if they're going to destroy this silicious core concept in favor of assuming it's RHA like every other tank in the game for balance purposes.

I don't know.  The devs have made it a point of fact to spit in the eye of historical values (the German guns are the most obvious place they do it, American guns have a similar issue, Russian guns seem to get better values than they should as well) so it's unlikely the historical truth will phase them when it comes to this tank.

But, honestly, I don't want an imbalanced tank.  I want a tank that's fun and fair to use and, ideally, a medium tank on crack but with good old American advantages such as naturally high Fire on the Move accuracy and a turret that's hideously difficult to fight against front-on. (At least, advantages within this game)

A bonus against explosive damage would be very nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.  Either way, in the end, the devs have done a largely good job of balancing this game, and that's all I'm really after, even if they fuzz a lot of the statistics or actual performance values to favor gameplay over realism.

I just wish said fuzzing didn't innately lead to the Russians having better tanks than they actually had time and again.

I can respect that.  I wouldn't want an OP Tank either, would take the fun out of it for me, would mean my wins are just because of the Tank instead of a combination of Skill and the Tank.

My issue is, I don't want us to be cookie cutter either, and with a High ROF Gun but low damage, that is going to cause some real Peek A Boo issues without some really heavy frontal armor which other Tanks already seem to have which I highly doubt we would get.  So without something extra like the French will have with a High ROF for a limeted time, there are not many good varations left without looking like a Tank with just a different Skin.

Onyx #14 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 10:25

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View PostBatosi, on Nov 04 2011 - 09:08, said:

I can respect that.  I wouldn't want an OP Tank either, would take the fun out of it for me, would mean my wins are just because of the Tank instead of a combination of Skill and the Tank.

My issue is, I don't want us to be cookie cutter either, and with a High ROF Gun but low damage, that is going to cause some real Peek A Boo issues without some really heavy frontal armor which other Tanks already seem to have which I highly doubt we would get.  So without something extra like the French will have with a High ROF for a limeted time, there are not many good varations left without looking like a Tank with just a different Skin.

Well, that's what happens when you only have 3 characteristics (Mobility, Firepower, Defense) to balance a tank around.  I mean, you can play with mobility in a number of different ways, but only one can be the best in a given tier/class.  Armor is similarly adjustable (namely, where and how it's located) and firepower, which has a few stats to its own (DPM, Alpha, RoF, Accuracy, FotM)

Plus other soft stats such as low, mid, and high-range acceleration, gun elevation/declination, things of that nature.

The American medium line will be known for having good maneuver, poor armor and a kick-ass gun, especially in tier 9, while the tier 9+ heavy will be known for having a kick-ass turret and a kick-ass gun on good maneuver tanks (I hope) that may or may not have the other American characteristic of poor hull armor.

Each tank will have a flavor, a unique combination of attributes that makes it special.  No other tank in the game has turret armor like the American heavy line with having a maneuverable tank with solid gun depression and having solid guns in general.  That's unique to the American line, and not even the french tree is likely to compare in that regard.

I mean, if you're truly worried, look at the difference between the Tiger and Tiger P.  These 2 tanks use the same gun and have the same health.  The one difference, the Tiger P has better front armor and a higher top speed, but the Tiger H has much better acceleration and climbing potential.  While I would argue one is superior to the other, they both must play differently from each other.

Using other German tank examples, such as the 3001 P and H and the 3601H, they all use the same gun, but the 3001p has the highest top speed with a huge size and blegh armor, the 3001h has idiotically high acceleration but no real armor to speak of except on the turret, and the 3601h has strong front and rear armor, no side armor, but worse acceleration than the 3001p.  They all, incidentally, play similarly enough due to the gun, but how the gun is applied is vastly different from tank to tank, since the few differences that do exist lend for vastly different methods of applying the gun properly.


While I can understand your concern -- that a tank can feel more or less like a reskin, even a subtle change yields drastically different playstyles.  I mean, you can have a tank copy the T34 as it sits, but give it better front armor, a worse hp/weight ratio and general handling, and drop its gun declination from ~-8 degrees to -4, and it will all of a sudden play like a completely different tank, even though you're barely touching anything.

Hell, the gun declination alone changes the playstyle dramatically by itself, as it either opens up certain options or bars them right there.  But, I digress.

My point is, even a subtle change will make the tank its own with no equal directly to it.  If that were to happen, the 4502A and IS-3 would be complaining about how similar they are (and, in direct statistics, they are very similar).  But, when it's all said and done, that unique fingerprint will distinguish it quite nicely.  It doesn't need to be the "best of" any given category to be unique or special.  Sometimes, being a master of nothing makes you a master of everything.  You know what they say:  An expert is a man who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything there is to know about nothing.  Being a master of anything isn't all it's cracked up to be ;)

nublex #15 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 13:39

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View PostOnyx, on Nov 04 2011 - 10:25, said:

Using other German tank examples, such as the 3001 P and H and the 3601H, they all use the same gun, but the 3001p has the highest top speed with a huge size and blegh armor, the 3001h has idiotically high acceleration but no real armor to speak of except on the turret, and the 3601h has strong front and rear armor, no side armor, but worse acceleration than the 3001p.  They all, incidentally, play similarly enough due to the gun, but how the gun is applied is vastly different from tank to tank, since the few differences that do exist lend for vastly different methods of applying the gun properly.
Against tier 8+ maybe, tier 7 and lower, things gets very interesting.

And really silicon-core is made against HEAT with stream of jet rather than share shock from HE; but there is just no reason to discourage people buying HEAT (aka gold) rounds.

If RHA version of T110 works as tier 10, then it would proof it is a good design providing all the guts works.

Batosi #16 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 15:38

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I just think that HE resistance (specially for a few more modern tanks at the end of that era) can add another level of complexity to the game and which will add to the pros and cons of different tanks and add addional tactics.  And from what I read about the T110 and their ideas for it, I think it will actually need it, besides the idea of addional flavor.

Onyx #17 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 22:15

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View Postnublex, on Nov 04 2011 - 13:39, said:

Against tier 8+ maybe, tier 7 and lower, things gets very interesting.

And really silicon-core is made against HEAT with stream of jet rather than share shock from HE; but there is just no reason to discourage people buying HEAT (aka gold) rounds.

If RHA version of T110 works as tier 10, then it would proof it is a good design providing all the guts works.

Oh, I understand, though the same princibles that make it good against HEAT would allow it some advantage against HE as well.  The difference in densities would help rebound the shockwave and, in general, layering of materials works wonders for mitigating explosions.  I mean, all it takes to stop spalling from an explosion that is otherwise defeated by the armor is a really, really thin sheet of steel on the backside of the main plate, and you'd eventually be ramping this effect up with 3 layers.

But I digress.  Honestly, the T110 should be a better tank than the other tier 10s because, honestly, it comes a decade after world war 2 outright, with all the tech that America picked up hot off the heels of the war and its bolstered military-industrial complex complete with many researchers, some of which came from Germany among other places.  It's actually in many cases insulting that the T110 is merely considered "equal" to the IS-7, but it's going to have to have some of its better features, such as the composite armor, likely cut just to make it balanced, which will turn it into an untrue copy of the original tank and bring it down to the same level as the likes of a Maus or IS-7, tanks developed pretty much by war's end.

Using WW2 as an example, just look at the difference 2 years made for the Tiger Ausf A and Tiger Ausf B.  Went from a flat-boxed armor to squared, better engine, transmission, stronger gun.  The difference was a tank that was already feared turning into a tank that was feared significantly more so and basically made priority #1 for any and all units in an area to kill due to how tough a target it was, especially against what America fielded largely during the war:  Namely, the M4 Sherman.

Iterating myself, if they were to put the T110 into the game as it stood when it was prototyped, it would be an overpowered, unstoppable god of death, for the simple reason that it had 10 years of practical knowledge over the tanks from world war 2, give or take a couple years, in an age where composite armors were just first rolling out on the likes of the M60 and M103, among many other tanks around the world.  There is absolutely no way it can be handled accurately without cutting some of the "blueprint" features.

Drive_Me_Closer #18 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 22:28

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View PostOnyx, on Nov 04 2011 - 22:15, said:

Iterating myself, if they were to put the T110 into the game as it stood when it was prototyped, it would be an overpowered, unstoppable god of death, for the simple reason that it had 10 years of practical knowledge over the tanks from world war 2, give or take a couple years, in an age where composite armors were just first rolling out on the likes of the M60 and M103, among many other tanks around the world.  There is absolutely no way it can be handled accurately without cutting some of the "blueprint" features.

Not just the T110.  The 155 mm on the T30 and the 120mm on the T34 have worse then real life stats to justify cramming them in game.  And of course the speed of the chassis varies greatly on the T29/34/30 even though its the same tank.  The slugger and Wolverine suffer too so the dev's can have their favored playstyle.  It seems most US designs have been "modified" negatively for game balance reasons.

Arzoo #19 Posted Nov 04 2011 - 22:56

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View PostDrive_Me_Closer, on Nov 04 2011 - 22:28, said:

Not just the T110.  The 155 mm on the T30 and the 120mm on the T34 have worse then real life stats to justify cramming them in game.  And of course the speed of the chassis varies greatly on the T29/34/30 even though its the same tank.  The slugger and Wolverine suffer too so the dev's can have their favored playstyle.  It seems most US designs have been "modified" negatively for game balance reasons.

Uh, I think the 155mm is actually much better in-game than it was in real life. Remember in real life the 120mm was the better gun; it even requires an additional counterweight in the T34's turret that the T30 didn't need.

150+mm cannons are all jumped up in this game because they wanted the Bl-10 to be the best gun in the game (and crappy Russian high caliber guns to be good in general), so they buffed up all the other nation's super-high caliber guns as well.


The T30 got nerfed unrealistically in the mobility department compared to the T34, I think.



There are no words to describe what they did to the M36 though. The in-game tank shares nothing at all with the real one save looks and armor layout.

nublex #20 Posted Nov 05 2011 - 00:05

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View PostOnyx, on Nov 04 2011 - 22:15, said:

Oh, I understand, though the same princibles that make it good against HEAT would allow it some advantage against HE as well.  The difference in densities would help rebound the shockwave and, in general, layering of materials works wonders for mitigating explosions.  I mean, all it takes to stop spalling from an explosion that is otherwise defeated by the armor is a really, really thin sheet of steel on the backside of the main plate, and you'd eventually be ramping this effect up with 3 layers.
Yes and No, back spalling is just a more visible way a shock wave deliver its power.

I guess I got mix up while talking RL and in game. Unlike RL post war tanks have spall liner as standard, no tank does in game. As for free Spall Liner, it doesn't illustrate the why would it be such a good idea because it is very unlikely something would be release which discourage gold flow.

Quote

But I digress.  Honestly, the T110 should be a better tank than the other tier 10s because, honestly, it comes a decade after world war 2 outright, with all the tech that America picked up hot off the heels of the war and its bolstered military-industrial complex complete with many researchers, some of which came from Germany among other places.  It's actually in many cases insulting that the T110 is merely considered "equal" to the IS-7, but it's going to have to have some of its better features, such as the composite armor, likely cut just to make it balanced, which will turn it into an untrue copy of the original tank and bring it down to the same level as the likes of a Maus or IS-7, tanks developed pretty much by war's end.
Well consider it is a RHA version (ala M60 extended), with all the electronics stripped. Maus is that far ahead of its time (even the Panther was a bit ahead as war equipment); and T110 was design as counter to IS-3/10 because we were paranoid about them.

I rather see it worked like an enlarge up M60 with a good 120mm gun.

Quote

Using WW2 as an example, just look at the difference 2 years made for the Tiger Ausf A and Tiger Ausf B.  Went from a flat-boxed armor to squared, better engine, transmission, stronger gun.  The difference was a tank that was already feared turning into a tank that was feared significantly more so and basically made priority #1 for any and all units in an area to kill due to how tough a target it was, especially against what America fielded largely during the war:  Namely, the M4 Sherman.
Tiger I is a 30's design, for all Germans' effort this is the first step to their rather swift and wholly defeat. Tiger II on the other hand is full of breakthroughs.

T110's breakthroughs were concentrated on electronics and new armour material.

Quote

Iterating myself, if they were to put the T110 into the game as it stood when it was prototyped, it would be an overpowered, unstoppable god of death, for the simple reason that it had 10 years of practical knowledge over the tanks from world war 2, give or take a couple years, in an age where composite armors were just first rolling out on the likes of the M60 and M103, among many other tanks around the world.  There is absolutely no way it can be handled accurately without cutting some of the "blueprint" features.
IDK, since T110 was full of unproven technology a lot can go wrong. And yes, a lot of tanks didn't get their RL features for sake of gameplay/balance/limits.