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How to be a Hated Scout


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uhateme #1 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 00:57

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My guide on "scouting".

Okay so I love scouting, I haven't played a huge amount of battles or anything but there are many things that I feel like people don't realize when it comes to using that tier 4 light. People grind to a tier 5 light and still have no idea how to use a light. Remember not all things are for everyone, if you can't figure out how to use the tier 4 light, trust me a tier 5 light is gonna be a nightmare.

First off there are a couple things I have to say...

Don't tell a scout what to do, don't do what ignorant people say.

I'm sure many people know this but I feel like this has to be enforced, a light tank in the middle of the map in a bush just lighting targets up is scouting, a light tank hanging back with the arty is anti-scouting, if you have no idea how to use a light tank, don't tell the dude who's using it what to do unless he specifically asks for advice. If you are using a light tank, you use your own discretion. However this does not mean completely ignoring your team, if your arty is asking to light up certain areas, it’s your job to do so in whatever way you feel necessary. People say suicide scouting is ineffective and selfish, this is not always the case and I will be going over that. Don't let others tell you how to play, but remember your team expects you to help out a bit, and its best to explain to them what you are doing, if they don't like it/don't understand then that isn't your problem.

You are not a regular tank.

What I mean by this is, don't play peek-a-boo with a light tank, even if your top tier, it practically almost never works. You are a very fast but a very weak tank, you don't have the armor or the firepower to do that. Also don't try to snipe with a light, sure you have great camo values but you have no power, you'll be bouncing every shot, leave shooting while hiding in a bush to the tds. What I feel like what most people don't realize is that you can't play a light tank like any other class. It takes time to adapt to not stopping behind cover all the time, or to stop and shoot then keep moving. What you need to be doing is 1. be going fast, using your speed or 2. remaining undetected using your camo.

On a side note since a couple people have been bringing this up, the chaffe and vk2801 are capable of brawling/sniping at times, but for the purpose of introducing people to LT scouting I suggest you try not to when you first start playing a tier 4 LT.

"Use flank and snipe, and hit and run tactics and that work quite well. You do need to know when to take your leave/duck for cover once you've attracted some attention." Hovertank

So to explain in my words since Hovertank explained specifically for the chaffee (I took a little quote from a post he made :P), you can use your speed to circle a heavy like a medium would, and presumably you should be able to penetrate their rear and weak spots to do damage and slowly tear them apart. Be careful when doing this, like I've said you should avoid this until you've gotten some practice in a LT before attempting stuff like this. By circling you are exposing yourself to fire, if there is someone behind the tank you decided to circle, you just gave them a nice clear shot, so use caution and gut instinct of when and where to do this. Some LTs just lack the penetration or power to do this mind you, specifically when it comes to higher tier heavies, if you are unlucky you might just end up bouncing off their rear. Some LTs also tend to lose a huge amount of speed when taking turns which also doesn't make this very useful for them, because sooner or later the enemy will be able to aim at them and get a shot off. Also take note of the elevation, it's difficult to circle an enemy on a hill, as going up you lose much of the speed you need, giving the enemy a chance to get their turret aimed at you.

Thou art a mastermind.
You need to know every map, tank that you'll come across inside out. What arty are very mobile, and can turn themselves really fast to hit you, where certain tanks go and how they play. There is a certain generalization based on the tank a person is using. Ever been on a map and you see a bunch of type 59s and you're like "oh they are gonna here". This is actually really important to know, as a scout knowing where the enemy might be, beforehand gives you a huge advantage. It means you can get in a spot before they notice you are there. You are also not very strong, worst comes to worst knowing the weak spots of enemy tanks means you might actually be able to do damage. Even arty will bounce your shots sometimes, it sucks but it happens. Knowing this information isn't just helpful for a light tank, but for any tank you'll ever use. You should really play up the tank line you're going up for a bit before you decide to try out a light, unless you're being forced to grind through it to proceed up the tree. Light tanks can be very difficult and frustrating otherwise.

I am your nightmare.
A successful scout is a game changer. Ever played a game where that t-50 was able to run through your entire base and leave and then all of a sudden half your team is dead? Do not underestimate your capabilities, don't be daunted by the fact you are the lowest tier in the match. There are a few things to becoming the enemy's team nightmare.

What to have on hand.
1. I like to carry a repair kit and med kit. Set your repair kit to #5 so all you have to do is double tap 5 to repair your tracks. The med kit encase your driver gets knocked out, or really anyone part of your tanks crew. If your engine gets hit and that's why you stopped, you're probably screwed no matter what most of the time so that doesn't really matter, but I'm pretty sure to repair your engine you'll want to do 5 then 1. I don't carry a fire extinguisher because if you've gone on fire in a light tank, that's practically your death sentence and you're better off not wasting your credits on one. Instead you should use removed speed governor for russian tanks or octane gasoline for german/american tanks. A speed governor/octane gasoline isn't necessary, but if you can afford it (remember a speed governor is never consumed so it’s only a 1 time cost of 3k) then you should get it since it'll enhance one of your weapons, your speed.

Thou shalt be difficult.
2. Light tanks tend to be small tanks, how is this useful? It makes you hard to hit, meaning even the smallest change in elevation between you and the person shooting at you makes the shot much more difficult for the shooter. Use this to your advantage, chances are you are the person dodging fire and they are the person shooting, whatever throws off someone's chances in hitting you is essential. Use even your enemies as cover, go behind that slow moving target and drive in a way where their big ass is shielding you preventing his teammates from shooting you in fear of shooting their own pal. Most of the times if they do try to take the shot they end up killing their own pal or missing.
Also weave through cover, weaving in the open works, but isn't it even more effective when you're weaving through rocks. Anything that makes you more annoying and harder to hit is essential. Dead tanks, rocks, buildings, drive as if you are drunk trying to stay on the road and you’re flying through all these obstacles trying not to crash. Moving around like crazy maniac with different objects in the middle of wherever you’re driving makes killing you even more difficult.

Thou shalt stay fast.
3. Speed is your advantage over everyone else, and losing it means you're screwed. Avoid going up steep hills. Avoid taking too many turns, you want to weave, but use your discretion, you wanna maintain the speed you have at all times. If you start slowing down to the point where you're circling someone at 20km/h, it isn't gonna work out very well.

Okay so I've been going through all this stuff, yet I haven't even talked about the different ways of using a light tank and scouting. There is much more to go.

First off though some rules.

These aren't really rules just things to keep in mind.

1. Sometimes it's more important to drive than to aim, auto aim on your target and focus on staying alive, remember pressing T lights them up, and pressing E cancels auto aim for when the target is no longer a target you want to shoot at. Tap R to go into cruise mode, it means you move without having to do anything, and you'll see the arrow beside your speed glowing a bit, when its completely glowing it means cruise mode will try to go as fast as possible straight forward. All you have to do is press a and d to move left and right, if you find this might be useful and easier for you try it out. Knowing all the hot-keys will save your ass tons of times, and you should change them to your liking.

2. Killing is not always your primary concern, hold your fire if you can't hurt the enemy. There isn't much point in hitting the enemy, wasting ammo, and letting them know where you are when they may of not noticed. Remember stealth and speed, lights have good moving camo meaning it's harder to detect you if you are driving through bushes. Use anything to obscure the enemy's sight on you. We already went over using cover while driving.

There is probably lots more I'm missing but right now I am brain dead lol and can't think so I'll edit in some more stuff later.

Different types of scouting.

The suicide scout.

You rush into the enemy base at the very start and try to find as many enemies as possible. Simple right? WRONG, the misconception is that all you have to do is drive in and die and that's it. There is quite a bit more to that. I've gone over many tips before we got to this part of the guide for a reason, so you simply just don't drive in a straight line into the enemy base and die. You want to stay alive as long as possible. A dead scout is a non-seeing scout. Take the approach that makes you feel like will have the smallest amount of resistance in the area. Do everything I have gone over, use cover, enemy tanks, if you are about to die ram into the smallest looking tank around and kamikaze that guy bad. It's really hard to explain doing suicide scouting, but I can't express it enough that you need to stay alive for as long as possible. Let your team know what you are doing, make sure snipers and arty are ready. By the time you die your team should have been able to kill at least 2 enemies. Make it a point to find the enemy arty, if any. Although this is the most frowned upon type of scout, it can be the most rewarding. If you are top tier while doing this it can be devastating. Below link to screenshot shows you what is possible.

Spoiler                     

Notice how my team won 15>1. Sure I was one of the top tiers, but I'm trying to get across suicide scouting can be devastating if you apply all the tips I've said and put them together. I'm having difficulty explaining it, but just trust me on this one lol.

For now lets call this next type of scouting, ninja-scouting.

Lights have great camo, it's time to learn how to use it. You want to find a nice spot, get some cover, and just really sit there and look around lol. Simple right? Umm guess what I'm going to say, WRONG. Okay maybe it is sorta like that, just how suicide scouting was similar to the name but there was more to that. All types of scouting need you to communicate to your team, light targets up with T, let your arty know if you see the other team's biggest tank. Press ctrl and press on the spot where that big tank is on the mini-map to light that spot up. Keep enemy targets highlighted and try to move as little as possible, stay unnoticed. Do not fire and blow your cover. Remember dead lights cannot shine light on the enemy. Once you feel like there's not much you can do, move to another spot that needs some light to be shed on it. If your team starts falling apart, you can decide either to distract the enemy and hope your teammates use that distraction to fight back, or go looking for the enemy arty.

Anti-scouting.

In expectation of the other team's scouts to come at your base, suicide scouting, or maybe even later on after a bit (late-rusher), you sit back with your arty and engage them once they appear. Some things to remember.

-German lights tend to be heavier (leo, vk2801) meaning you can ram into them as a viable tactic.
-They have the same weaknesses you do, track them and circle them to death.
-Don't stop moving, a moving scout generally prevails over a non-moving scout in a 1 vs 1.
-Keep them as far away from your arty as possible, sometimes they'll completely ignore you to go straight for your arty, do whatever it takes to stop them, the arty means more than you frankly, so if it means suicidal ramming them in order to stop them do so, you'll save lives literally.
-Your both fast but realize unless your using the same tank, and even then,  one of you is faster. If it's you that's faster circling shall win, if it's not you then you might start to get out circled, remember try to track them, and at the very least stall them and distract them so your teammates can take them out.
-Remind your arty to relocate a.s.a.p, some of them are doorknobs at times and need that reminder.
-Don't stay right beside your arty, you'll just give away their position, remember that once you and your arty get spotted the enemy arty might be aiming at you. You  want to be near the arty, but not too close, otherwise it doesn't work out as well.
-Don't lose your opponent, ever, if you are anti-scouting you just can't give up unless you want the arty mad at you as well suffer a defeat. Remember tracks and side shots.

Sweeper.

This is something you do after you've done maybe anti-scouting or ninja-scouting. As the battle rages and a victor is becoming apparent here is the time to rush in and help your allies out by simply taking out the remaining weak enemy tanks, who probably have half their modules damage and won't be able to hit you properly even if they get the chance. One by one you shall circle your enemy to death remembering to make them suffer by hitting those nice weak spots especially the ones in the rear.

Spoiler                     

Above is a screenshot where yes I was a higher tier (just easier to do these things quick and get good results when you're a higher tier and I just wanted some nice results fast lol), where I sat back for a bit then decided to sweep in and take out people one by one.

Remember if you somehow survive suicide-scouting you can then try to do ninja-scouting or vice versa you can do suicide-scouting after ninja-scouting although I don't call it sweeper or suicide-scouting anymore I call it

Late-rusher

Do either ninja-scouting or anti-scouting and then instead of sweeping out the enemy, go directly towards the enemy base in search of arty. Later on in the game the chances of arty being guarded will decrease the more the game progresses. Take this chance to storm the base and take out as many arty as possible. This can get you a bunch of easy kills. It can also help relieve your allies as enemy tanks will now come back rushing to their base meaning your teammates can push. It would be a good idea to get your artys' attention in some way so they know you are heading out to find the enemy arty.

Now as this guide progressed I am getting lousier about writing it, I'm planning to update it sooner or later, and I would like some input, just gotta say a couple more things before I'm done.

The Drop Artist

This is a very short and simple type of scouting. It's sort of something you can do to mix things up. Instead of suicide rushing across into the enemy base, only go about half way across the map, and retreat back to base once you spot the enemy. You can do this repeatedly until you get hit, or until you feel like doing something else like anti-scouting and ninja-scouting. Works very well for specific maps but I wouldn't always recommend it. The beauty of this is that you can spot many tanks, but only for a short period of time, however that short period of time can be enough to give your arty a chance to knock some enemies out. It also means you generally are gonna survive from this, unlike suicide-scouting which has like a 5% chance of you surviving.

By anna_tankgirl:

Team scouting

This is a simple tactic you get a pack of fast lights, you rush to their base and evade, do not fire and do not stop until IN the enemy base and even then gang up on any defenders. This works best on maps where you have entry points to defend. If a player is hit and can't follow you leave them! The goal is for at least 3-4 tanks get to the base and under cover.

Once there you cover all entry points and help take out tanks as a team if they have to climb a hill great. Do not pop out to fire, do not expose yourself, do not give them one inch of a side to hit until they enter your field of fire.

And if you get into a circle under cover to cap DO NOT BUDGE. The goal is to force them to move to their base to stop you and to make them pay for that, a TD lumbering up a hill incline is a good target.

While you're doing this the enemy must commit serious forces back to base and if you're on game their arty will not get clean shots and they must invade, this gives your team critical time to push and arty to move in for support.

And a last point if you're going to be overrun then get out, there is no need to die you can always fire on the way out and come back later you likely did your damage so there is no shame. You're fast just use that and work as a team.

Modules.

Module advice.

Vents I say are a must for any type of scout, they improve performance of crew which is a boost for any tank. Some people may complain that vents only add +5% to the crew skill and not +5% to the tank properties (+5% skill = more or less +2.5-3% to their duty assigned) however "An experienced drivers makes better use of the engine" > Better driver, more acceleration (and that +5% makes it even better!) > Gets faster to top speed > Speed loss while turning is reduced more (not much but it's something). Camo nets I would use for people who like to ninja-scout. Rammer for people who tend to be a sweeper/late-rusher, it may not seem you may need more RoF but it helps trust me. Cyclone filter for russian tank users who also use speed governor, this means you can use speed governor more often without worrying about damage, and can also worry less about your engine getting hit and cutting out on you. Grousers for german lights really helps if you are more of a suicide-scout or sweeper. Optics for sure if you are a ninja-scout or a suicide scout, being able to see further helps no matter what you are doing. I would say binoculars but I feel like for a light tank that's gonna be moving a lot they aren't as useful, but that's based on personal opinion. Spall protection is nice for scouts as well, 15% reduced damage for ramming and explosions when arty nearly misses you. Hmm what else (you can tell I'm rushing now cause I'm tired of typing lol). That's about all I have to say on that.

Anyway this is the best I could get done for now, I hope you guys don't take my name literally and neg rep me too hard :P:). You deserve gold if you read this entire thing I swear. Best of luck, hoped this helped.

Regards,
uhateme

People who have had a slight impact so far through feedback (Contributors):
Jodo42
Joesco726
anna_tankgirl
Tyras
TheRonmasteh
TankAdmiral (for my incorrect use of thou)
erikpurne (for grammar corrections)
mrobershaw
Hovertank


Shultz #2 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 01:48

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Well done uhatume...this is a great overview to be sure.

Cheers and thanks.

Shultz

Jodo42 #3 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 01:49

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Quote

-German lights tend to be heavier (leo, vk2801) meaning you can ram into them and it will damage them a lot more than it will damage you.
Other way around, you'll take more damage.

uhateme #4 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 01:53

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View PostJodo42, on Nov 21 2011 - 01:49, said:

Other way around, you'll take more damage.

Really? Kay just because of this I changed it to ramming is a viable tactic with them. Noticed some typos too, feel free to correct me guys and thanks for the feedback.

SolDust #5 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 02:07

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really well done how to guide.  very informative! +1


I play scout tanks a lot myself, and always take these tips to heart.  I like to ninja scout personally as it has always been more of my style.  well, that and my scout of choice is a little on the sluggish side.  But the pzNA is a tiny tiny tank and conceals very well.  people complain always about their new tier 4 light always getting stuck as the last tank on the list, but personally, I prefer those high tier matches more. its more of a challenge and is always rewarding when you do well.

uhateme #6 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 02:12

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View PostSolDust, on Nov 21 2011 - 02:07, said:

really well done how to guide.  very informative! +1


I play scout tanks a lot myself, and always take these tips to heart.  I like to ninja scout personally as it has always been more of my style.  well, that and my scout of choice is a little on the sluggish side.  But the pzNA is a tiny tiny tank and conceals very well.  people complain always about their new tier 4 light always getting stuck as the last tank on the list, but personally, I prefer those high tier matches more. its more of a challenge and is always rewarding when you do well.

Thanks for the input :).

Time2Fly #7 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 02:49

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YAYYY! im soooo glad we have this.

Joesco726 #8 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 07:51

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View Postuhateme, on Nov 21 2011 - 00:57, said:

My guide on "scouting".

Anti-scouting.

In expectation of the other teams scouts to come at your base, suicide scouting, or maybe even later on after a bit (late-rusher), you sit back with your arty and engage them once they appear.


One of the best uses of that stock but somewhat fast low-tier medium tank... except that if you wait with your arty, the scouts will see the arty as well as you. Enemy counterbattery fire will take it from there.
I always like to advocate anti-scouting a substantial ways in front of the friendly arty, so that you have time to annihilate the scout coming your way without losing an arty or 2 in the process.

Oh, and try to stay with the enemy scout shooting him in the engine/side all the way through. They hate that. :P

uhateme #9 Posted Nov 21 2011 - 13:59

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View PostJoesco726, on Nov 21 2011 - 07:51, said:

One of the best uses of that stock but somewhat fast low-tier medium tank... except that if you wait with your arty, the scouts will see the arty as well as you. Enemy counterbattery fire will take it from there.
I always like to advocate anti-scouting a substantial ways in front of the friendly arty, so that you have time to annihilate the scout coming your way without losing an arty or 2 in the process.

Oh, and try to stay with the enemy scout shooting him in the engine/side all the way through. They hate that. :P

Added some of this information in my own words, thanks for that.

Navlem #10 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 01:01

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Great guide. Keep it up! :)

Tyras #11 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 20:20

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Spall protection is nice for scouts as well.  15% reduced damage for ramming and explosions when arty near misses.

Whee #12 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 20:39

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Good Guide, I like it!

I'm just curious, can the M24 Chaffee do the same as well? It's not as fast as the other tier 5 light tanks but it does have a powerful gun.

Mizar_Panzer #13 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 20:41

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FANTASTIC guide.

Now, can you hide it so that only I can see it and no one else can?

:Smile-hiding:

anna_tankgirl #14 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 22:09

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I just wanted to add a team tip if a scout get get into the base they will distract the defenders, use that if arty are able to hit and are not firing at them your wasting a scout. If the turn around and move to the base hit them in the backside and push.

And I want to add an option missed - TEAM SCOUTING

This is a simple tactic you get a pack of fast lights, you rush to their base and evade do not fire and do not stop until IN the enemy base and even then gang up on any defenders. This works best on maps where you have entry points to defend. If a player is hit and can't follow you leave them! The goal is for at least 3-4 tanks get to the base and under cover.

Once there you cover all entry points and help take out tanks as a team, if they have to climb a hill great. Do not pop out to fire, do not expose yourself, do not give them one inch of a side to hit until they enter your field of fire.

And if you get into a circle under cover to cap DO NOT BUDGE. The goal is to force them to move to their base to stop you and to make them pay for that a TD lumbering up a hill incline is a good target.

While your doing this the enemy must commit serious forces back to base and if your on game their arty will not get clean shots they must invade, this gives your team critical time to push and arty to move in for support.

And a last point if your going to be overrun then get out, there is no need to die you can always fire on the way out and come back later you likely did your damage so there is no shame. Your fast just use that and work as a team.

uhateme #15 Posted Nov 23 2011 - 23:31

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View PostWhee, on Nov 23 2011 - 20:39, said:

Good Guide, I like it!

I'm just curious, can the M24 Chaffee do the same as well? It's not as fast as the other tier 5 light tanks but it does have a powerful gun.

Do what I did with the M5? I'm guessing so, chaffee is the only tier 5 scout I have yet to unlock so I don't know, but you would think so since I've seen it at the top of the list a couple times and every time the chaffee driver did pretty good.

View PostMizar_Panzer, on Nov 23 2011 - 20:41, said:

FANTASTIC guide.

Now, can you hide it so that only I can see it and no one else can?

:Smile-hiding:

Nah, can't do that, I need everyone to see it so all these people learn how to scout and can get back at arty for all the times they've killed us unexpectedly :).

View Postanna_tankgirl, on Nov 23 2011 - 22:09, said:

I just wanted to add a team tip if a scout get get into the base they will distract the defenders, use that if arty are able to hit and are not firing at them your wasting a scout. If the turn around and move to the base hit them in the backside and push.

I think I added that somewhere at some point in my own words, but I added that other thing you came up with :).

Edit: Added all suggestions and mentioned the person (put down on contributors list) who contributed to give them credit. THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS :)

TheRonmasteh #16 Posted Nov 24 2011 - 00:29

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View Postuhateme, on Nov 21 2011 - 00:57, said:

My guide on "scouting".
Module advice.

Vents I say are a must for any type of scout, they improve performance of crew which is a boost for any tank.

Not gonna get you something new, but I wanna reinforce this little part with something that some people may not see at first sight :)

Some people may complain that vents only add +5% to the crew skill and not +5% to the tank properties (+5% skill = more or less +2.5-3% to their duty assigned), but if you take a look at the existing equipment, and your crew, Improved Ventilations are the only Equipment available that improves maneurability (There are also Additional Grousers. But they are German and the best scouts CANT use them. They also weight 1000Kg, so they are good on bad terrain but makes you more sluggish and slower on good terrain).

How?

"An experienced drivers makes better use of the engine" > Better driver, more acceleration (and that +5% makes it even better!) > Gets faster to top speed > Speed loss while turning is reduced more (not much but its something)

uhateme #17 Posted Nov 24 2011 - 13:55

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View PostTheRonmasteh, on Nov 24 2011 - 00:29, said:

Not gonna get you something new, but I wanna reinforce this little part with something that some people may not see at first sight :)

Some people may complain that vents only add +5% to the crew skill and not +5% to the tank properties (+5% skill = more or less +2.5-3% to their duty assigned), but if you take a look at the existing equipment, and your crew, Improved Ventilations are the only Equipment available that improves maneurability (There are also Additional Grousers. But they are German and the best scouts CANT use them. They also weight 1000Kg, so they are good on bad terrain but makes you more sluggish and slower on good terrain).

How?

"An experienced drivers makes better use of the engine" > Better driver, more acceleration (and that +5% makes it even better!) > Gets faster to top speed > Speed loss while turning is reduced more (not much but its something)

Thanks, I'll add a slightly shorter version of that once I get the chance.

TankAdmiral #18 Posted Nov 29 2011 - 21:39

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First off, I love the content of the post, thank you.

Second, because I'm a nerd who studied a lot of Latin and some linguistics, I recommend you read the Wikipedia page on the word "thou": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou - it will help you use the correct verb form when using this archaic word for "you." For example, "Thou shalt" should be used in place of "Thou shall," although "shall" is an irregular verb in this case so perhaps not a great example.

uhateme #19 Posted Nov 29 2011 - 22:38

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View PostTankAdmiral, on Nov 29 2011 - 21:39, said:

First off, I love the content of the post, thank you.

Second, because I'm a nerd who studied a lot of Latin and some linguistics, I recommend you read the Wikipedia page on the word "thou": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou - it will help you use the correct verb form when using this archaic word for "you." For example, "Thou shalt" should be used in place of "Thou shall," although "shall" is an irregular verb in this case so perhaps not a great example.

This was an lol can't tell if trolling or not moment, but guess what, I fixed it just so it could be grammatically correct. Good to know since I'm very keen on making sure my English is very clear since English is the only language I know. If anyone asks about it I'm going to tell them to message you.  :Smile_honoring:

Whiskey_dod #20 Posted Nov 30 2011 - 02:57

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Very nice guide! You covered a lot of what scouts need to do. Using your definitions, I am a drop-artist and a late-rusher. I never suicide scout, because suicide implies the chance of failure. Homicide scouting, on the other hand, implies that the other team needs bite the pillow(if u get what I mean).  ;)

Also I would love to platoon with you sometime. Always fun to work with other good light drivers!




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