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Penetration, bounce, ricochet


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Overlord #1 Posted Aug 31 2010 - 13:27

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The purpose of this topic is to gather strange statistics, like: "fired at a MS-1 with 203mm shell and didn't penetrate ..." or, otherwise "Leichttraktor penetrated a IS-7 from the front".

What do you need to make a report:

If you had such accident in game, make the screenshot as soon as possible to show the situation where the issue occurred. Then, using your screen shot, try to draw where you were aiming at on the target tank and where the shell hit. Supply your screen with a brief description of the accident: tank model, gun model, shell type, what sound message (Just dinged them, Ricochet ect) you got when the target was hit, how much of the Hitpoint Percentage the target lost from your shot, was it critical damage or not.

It would be better to test penetration in training battles (there are not so hot and furious) and post here your results in tables and with screenshots.

All the unnecessary things that don't belong to this topic (off-topic, discussions, badly made reports) are to be deleted.

Let's make the game better together. Neither we nor you are not fond of game bugs.

PS: You can upload vidoes as well.

UglyCoyote #2 Posted Sep 04 2010 - 00:06

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happened to me today a lot either in my jagdtiger or in the T-44. last experience was in the t 44 i engage a t 38 and he me we hit it each other like 3-4 time before the
first hit went through, circled around each other still ...bing ricochet..hit... until we were finally taken out both from other guys following up. sorry but it s very
hard to circle the enemy while you re in 1st person view (yeah another bug i got alot today in close combat if ur not in 1st person mode ur gun will either got up and down even if u just drive straight it went up and down today) tries to kill him and also do a break for pictures   :Smile_harp:  but both of us fired at least 10-12 rounds and
same happens with the jagdtiger also i cant say how many steel wall medal s i collected today but only bing. and one bullet cost s 1k cred s and the tiger can only carry 35 or 40 meaning if lucky i can kill 3 guys ...

darzok #3 Posted Sep 04 2010 - 21:33

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Well just had a wounderfull battle a S35 739 loading AP not APCR ammo was easly able to pen over 100mm armor why at the same time able to bounce around 9 perfect hits off its hull at roughly 90D's give or take a tiny bit.

The gun on the S35 739 has a MAX pen of 72 with AP yet is able to cut up 101mm Churchill armor like its nothing and at the same time bounce the 6pd thats able to punch holes in it the size of a small cow just bounce like mad.

It was not taking much HP off and it did not kill me that was another tank but the point is it was not only able to bounce my shots none stop more or less head on but able to damage me when i could not damage him.

Churchill front 101mm armor turret 80mm armor.
S35 739 front hull 36!!! and the turret 56.

Even if every one of my shots rolled the max -30% pen i can still punch a hole in him form the front with out trying and yet for some reason head on i just bounce and his gun unable to do any thing to me from the front is able to damage me this was roughly at around 15-20m.

I did not take a screen shot in time as i was the last tank alive and to busy fighting to think to snap one.

I all so bounced 3 hits in a row on a tracked Leo head on again some thing that should not happen given how it only has 50mm armor and with -30% my pen is still 62 if the churchill stats are right.

darzok #4 Posted Sep 07 2010 - 23:09

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Today on world of bounce.

I had my King tigers 10.5mm cannon penetrate a Leo and do Zero damage.

My Valentine has bounced off the Pzk III side armor its 30mm thick at around 50d 70d and 90d all failed to penetrate yet oddly i was able to hurt him form the front dispite it seem 70mm think with a gun that has an avg of 51mm penetration.

The valentine all so withstood a VK DB 88mm cannon 7 time's and only lose half hp must be some bug as even if every shot rolled -50% damage i would of been killed was all on my upper side armor above just behind the turret.

My churchill has all so bounced alot of shots head on with a Ausf A 15mm hull and 20mm turret some thing the churchills 6pd can penetrate with its avg 89 penetration.

Still seems to be a few bugs in the code but is not as common as before.

critta #5 Posted Sep 09 2010 - 16:00

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I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but I've seen PzII's and PzIII's get an exceptional number of bounces and ricochets for what their armour would suggest.

All though the tiers, even upto the T34, T34/85 that I'm driving now, shooting the front of these two tanks gives and ungodly number of bounces, looking at the stats of the mm of armour they have, I see no reason why the 100mm gun on my T34/85 (or for that matter the 85mm I was using before) shouldn't be able to penetrate these with ease.

I've not noticed it as much when shooting other vehicles, but these two in particular it seems to happen a lot with.

Asky #6 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 14:55

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I did some test with IS vs A-20 VT-42 gun (ap shells, 75mm penetration @ 100m). I could penetrate the turret from sides, at close range and @ long range. Not all shots penetrated the armor, but some of them did, doing ~ 4% damage. I could also penetrate the front armor, in some spots (not near tracks). The a-20 crew skill was 86%

Turret side armor test distance
This hit was ammo rack: (approx. spot)
http://i.imagehost.org/t/0578/shot_237.jpghttp://i.imagehost.org/t/0391/shot_238.jpg

No critical:

http://i.imagehost.org/t/0188/shot_240.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/t/0418/shot_239.jpg

Sound was the default one (Enemy armor damaged, etc)

Also, after penetration, i tried to shoot the same spot, but it didn't penetrate again.

I also managed to penetrate a Tiger 1 turret from sides(dunno if it was the upgraded one), with the same gun, but it wasn't at training, so i couldn't make a clear screenshot.

Asky #7 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 19:31

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Devs really read this post? Can we get a little feedback from them? Like "Interesting, we will test it too", " it's a well known problem, it will be fixed", "want some vodka?", etc.

Overlord #8 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 21:40

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View PostAsky, on Sep 10 2010 - 19:31, said:

Devs really read this post? Can we get a little feedback from them? Like "Interesting, we will test it too", " it's a well known problem, it will be fixed", "want some vodka?", etc.

"Devs" don't make conclusions on the basis of stream of user consciousness. Evidence is required.

View PostAsky, on Sep 10 2010 - 14:55, said:

I did some test with IS vs A-20 VT-42 gun (ap shells, 75mm penetration @ 100m). I could penetrate the turret from sides, at close range and @ long range. Not all shots penetrated the armor, but some of them did, doing ~ 4% damage. I could also penetrate the front armor, in some spots (not near tracks). The a-20 crew skill was 86%

Turret side armor test distance
This hit was ammo rack: (approx. spot)


No critical:


Sound was the default one (Enemy armor damaged, etc)

Also, after penetration, i tried to shoot the same spot, but it didn't penetrate again.

I also managed to penetrate a Tiger 1 turret from sides(dunno if it was the upgraded one), with the same gun, but it wasn't at training, so i couldn't make a clear screenshot.

Where exactly were you aiming at (IS and Tiger 1)? Mark in the pic.

Asky #9 Posted Sep 10 2010 - 22:03

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View PostOverlord, on Sep 10 2010 - 21:40, said:

Where exactly were you aiming at (IS and Tiger 1)? Mark in the pic.
Thank you for you're reply. I was aiming at approx. the spot where i m still aiming in the picture, probably i had move the mouse very little. I will try to record with the fraps and post a video for a clear evidence

Midnitewolf #10 Posted Sep 12 2010 - 07:40

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I think this is a possible bug but unfortunately this is based primarily on observational data rather than hard numbers.

I recently had a VK3601(H)(and a PzIV at one point) equiped with the 7.5cm KwK42 L/78 gun and over time I started to notice that I seemed to be having a large amout of bounced or otherwise non-penetrating shots.  At first I blew it off as just bad luck but recently I have decide to go the path toward Panther and am running a PzIII/IV with the 7.5cm KwK48 L/48 and am making the same type of shots at the same type of tanks as with my VK3601 and the shots are actually penetrating alot more often. This puzzles me because the L/78 has an average penetration of 138mm and the L/48 has a average penetration of 106mm. For example today with both tanks I found myself shooting a side profile shot on a VK3601 directly under the turret about the middle of the tracks and both at about the same distance to target. With both tanks I had a "green" crosshair indicating ability to penetrate the armor of my target.  With both tanks neither the target or I was moving.  After 3 shots with the VK3601 I ended up with 3 non-penetrating hits. With the PzIII/IV both hits penetrated.  I believe the VK3601 has 80-100mm of armor on its side hull so with a minimum penetration of 97mm I would expect at least 2 of the 3 shots to penetrate using the L/78.  The L/48 on the other hand barely has the average penetration to be able to get a 50% ratio on hits if it happens to be right at 100m.  Now I suppose I could have gotten a lucky/unlucky streak but considering I have been noticing a high amount of bouced or non-penetrating shots with the L/78 in the first place there might be more to it that a bad string of hits.

Also I have recently upgraded my VK3601 to use the 88mm and while its average penetration sits at 132 (6mm lower than the L/78) I don't seem to be having any problems with shots not penetrating when I have a green crosshair.  Considering how similar the penetrating characteristics of the two weapons are, this also leads me to believe there may be an issue with the L/78 gun not performing as indicated/expected.

exoriou #11 Posted Sep 12 2010 - 09:37

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Is Pz4 bouncing 130mm IS4's shell bouncing from front strange?

Overlord #12 Posted Sep 13 2010 - 14:32

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View PostAsky, on Sep 10 2010 - 22:03, said:

Thank you for you're reply. I was aiming at approx. the spot where i m still aiming in the picture, probably i had move the mouse very little. I will try to record with the fraps and post a video for a clear evidence

IS, as well as the majority of vehicles, don't have homogeneous front/side armor. It should be understood as "up to 120/90 mm" respectively. E.g. firing from the front you can inflict substantial damage, penetrating inspection door. That's why it "IS" is possible to be penetrated with guns which penetration values are below 90mm.

Asky #13 Posted Sep 13 2010 - 14:41

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View PostOverlord, on Sep 13 2010 - 14:32, said:

IS, as well as the majority of vehicles, don't have homogeneous front/side armor. It should be understood as "up to 120/90 mm" respectively. E.g. firing from the front you can inflict substantial damage, penetrating inspection door. That's why it "IS" is possible to be penetrated with guns which penetration values are below 90mm.

Thank u for clarifying.
I also noticed that i overlooked the word 'average' in gun statistics :D so 75mm average penetration sometimes is more or less than 75

ElAtaque #14 Posted Sep 14 2010 - 22:24

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1.) I had the pleasure to bounce a PzIII with 8,8KwK L71 AP several times yesterday and today, mainly backside of hull and turret. Evidence is ear-ringing by my comrades in Teamspeak channel  <_<

2.) Since patch I often lose my maingun in Tiger I, nearly in every battle to be precise. Maybe the gun is in auto-aim space? Record of loosing the weapon is twice in round about 4 minutes...

Soraph #15 Posted Sep 20 2010 - 19:45

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I've no methods to show you that error as screenshots doesn't have the combat log, anyway:

in the screenshot is shown that I hit the enemy IS-4 dealing actual damage, actually that isn't true at all

My configuration on the IS-4 is as follow
- Gun 122mm BL-9
- 122mm Armour Piercing shell UBR-471
- Gunner total experience: 366.014 (if that is needed)
- Commander total experience: 367.237 (if that is needed)

Two times I aimed axactly at the enemy IS-4 gun base on the turret, cross-hair was GREEN, the game told me "Penetration!" and the enemy tank got absolutely no damage at all, he was 100% after both shoots, I got killed by him few seconds after my last shoot, neither his gun got destroyed or damaged as he was shooting as always, dealing the standard (I guess) damage hitting me on soft spots every shoot with AP shells.

Unfortunately I can't test and/or make videos about that in training battles as I don't know anyone else with an IS-4 that want to use (many say is a waste of) time to check that.

I hope you can check combat logs from the server by yourself and see if you can find a solution to that, the battle was in Lakeville on Monday 20 September 2010 at 20.22.10

Regards.

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  • Attached File   shot_038.jpg   212.78K


GreaseNipple #16 Posted Sep 20 2010 - 20:29

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I've been having this a lot in my IS-3 using the BL-9 with standard AP rounds. I hit another IS-3 several times with the "ring" that they've been hit with no damage, same with  A20s, pz3s, pz2. I'm finding it hard to show a screenshot of this happening especially with the tanks moving and when I do hit them they blow up immediately.  Personally it was all scout tanks that this was happening with, till the IS-3.

Soraph #17 Posted Sep 21 2010 - 12:04

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View PostSoraph, on Sep 20 2010 - 19:45, said:

Attachmentshot_038.jpg

I've no methods to show you that error as screenshots doesn't have the combat log, anyway:

in the screenshot is shown that I hit the enemy IS-4 dealing actual damage, actually that isn't true at all

My configuration on the IS-4 is as follow
- Gun 122mm BL-9
- 122mm Armour Piercing shell UBR-471
- Gunner total experience: 366.014 (if that is needed)
- Commander total experience: 367.237 (if that is needed)

Two times I aimed axactly at the enemy IS-4 gun base on the turret, cross-hair was GREEN, the game told me "Penetration!" and the enemy tank got absolutely no damage at all, he was 100% after both shoots, I got killed by him few seconds after my last shoot, neither his gun got destroyed or damaged as he was shooting as always, dealing the standard (I guess) damage hitting me on soft spots every shoot with AP shells.

Unfortunately I can't test and/or make videos about that in training battles as I don't know anyone else with an IS-4 that want to use (many say is a waste of) time to check that.

I hope you can check combat logs from the server by yourself and see if you can find a solution to that, the battle was in Lakeville on Monday 20 September 2010 at 20.22.10

Regards.


Again RIGHT NOW I aimed in the gun of another IS-4 with Ap shells, got the game message "We hit them hard" and he was still at 100%

Hazardz #18 Posted Sep 21 2010 - 13:00

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Little while ago in my JadgTiger using standard AP armour I was  manual aiming at the middle front hull of a stationary KV at about 100m range. 4 shots in a row I hit with the ringing bell and flashing diamond happening and he was still at 100% HP. There was no announcements about ricochet or we just dinged him.  The next shot went astray because I was taking dmg and rocking which killed a tank behind the KV so I was actually firing real shells capable of causing dmg.
I know KV's are tough nuts but this seems like a strange effect with the shells not being registered correctly because I was receiving the hit ringing noise and flashing diamond whilst not causing any dmg and not getting any announcements about dings.

Next 2 shots I swapped to an IS4 and detracked him with first for 0% dmg and second dinged off side armour at point blank range and I heard the particular ding noise from the shell he was that close.

Apologies for not taking a screenshot of the end stats screen to see how many hits I had registered and whether dmg was done or not.

Edit :- Forgot to mention I was using the 128mm L61 with 276 penetration with AP ammo. Almost 4 times the penetration needed to pierce the KV front hull armour.

Soraph #19 Posted Sep 23 2010 - 10:44

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View PostSoraph, on Sep 21 2010 - 12:04, said:

Again RIGHT NOW I aimed in the gun of another IS-4 with Ap shells, got the game message "We hit them hard" and he was still at 100%


Again right now, this time using the Gun 130mm S-70 with 130mm Armour Piercing shell UBR-482. Hit, 0% damage, crew audio confirm the hit.

Soraph #20 Posted Sep 25 2010 - 18:57

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Happened again, Gun 7.5cm KwK40 L/48 with both standard AP and HE shells, same aiming spot, enemy was a Pz.III I was on a Pz.IV




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