60 replies to this topic

[thetap]

Thanks for taking the time to do some testing, LC50 and Montykoro. Nice work, guys.

[Altruismo]

Ghoest, on Dec 26 2011 - 03:24, said:

He did not demonstrate that at all. Stop lying.

He demonstrated what the they currently do.

It used to be that a 105 that aimined at the right spots made a mockery of the KV1.
It would be totally reasonable to say the old situation was unfair - but its total lie to say the cuurent situation is comparable to the old one.

Go be a liar somewhere else.

The 30+% you claim to have done to a "KV1" "Front lower turret" is about 170-180 damage (that's about 30-32%, giving your anecdote way more credence than I should, based on my own experience with 105's and KVs, both shooting and being shot).

His tests against a KV-2 average 22% against the "Front of turret near the hull" with a range around 140-160 damage.

Not only do I consider a tested 140-160 to be comparable to an anecdotal 170-180, but it even falls within a 25% spread of your value.

Read the thread and check the figures before you call someone a liar, else you just end up looking foolish.

[Montykoro]

People do the right... dont like the test? make your test and post then discuss ...

[SevnFour]

While very interesting, it makes no difference.

The key word in all this is "random" - I think I read damage varied from 5% to 58%....... (?)

I prefer to see more skill vs. luck but apparently that will never be true with this game's damage "model".

[colwyn27]

I just love my kv13 that can hit a teir 9/10 hvy do 5% damage and cause a critial every 2nd shot, hit there rears it increases to about 15% dmg.. HE is good, a Maus with 4 criticals on it even on 98% hp becomes so ineffective from then on

[Colin_S]

colwyn27, on Dec 26 2011 - 08:09, said:

I just love my kv13 that can hit a teir 9/10 hvy do 5% damage and cause a critial every 2nd shot, hit there rears it increases to about 15% dmg.. HE is good, a Maus with 4 criticals on it even on 98% hp becomes so ineffective from then on

I hope you realize that not every time you hear "Critical hit!" you actually cause a component in their tank to be broken or damaged. It just means that you have taken some HP off of a module. Probably 60% of the time they do not actually recieve a damaged module from a critical hit.

[JohnHenry]

To correct you: in order to deal damage with HE, you have to aim for specific areas. Since you cannot do that when strafing at maximum speed, the conclusion is that HE was nerfed. The end.

[Batosi]

You guys can argue as you like about the patches, I appreciated the more in depth veiw of how to use HE, it will be helpful in the future.

[Ghoest]

Altruismo, on Dec 26 2011 - 05:17, said:

The 30+% you claim to have done to a "KV1" "Front lower turret" is about 170-180 damage (that's about 30-32%, giving your anecdote way more credence than I should, based on my own experience with 105's and KVs, both shooting and being shot).

His tests against a KV-2 average 22% against the "Front of turret near the hull" with a range around 140-160 damage.

Not only do I consider a tested 140-160 to be comparable to an anecdotal 170-180, but it even falls within a 25% spread of your value.

Read the thread and check the figures before you call someone a liar, else you just end up looking foolish.

That you consider a ~15% difference to be essentially the same is your flaw  - not mine.
It does make big difference though when it comes 4 shotting a KV.


I think the nerf was fair. But Im sick of you guys lying and saying there was no significant change in damage.

[Thornir]

Nichts, on Dec 26 2011 - 04:11, said:

ITT: One person who understands what's happened to HE post-0.7.0, and lots of people who either don't understand or don't want to understand.

Very well done OP. Don't be discouraged by the people posting here... they'll argue til they're blue in the face if you don't prove their point, no matter how many times they are shown to be wrong.

The issue isn't that we "don't understand". Quite the contrary. We understand EXACTLY what has changed, and recognize the implications for a wide swath of the community.

It is hard for me to imagine that anyone that thinks the solution is to "aim better" has used the large caliber HE guns in game. Hitting the lower third of the turret? Really? At 100 yards or more? The target tank fits INSIDE the aiming circle!

Explaining what happened doesn't make it "better". We know how it works, and it does not work as well. The only people i know that are happy with the change are the high tier tank drivers who don't want to be bothered with worrying about the damage the lower tier cannon fodder in each match could do to them. If you used the HE howitzers to grind credits, you are now screwed.

How hard is THAT to understand?

[LC50]

Thornir, on Dec 25 2011 - 04:11, said:

You lost me in your effort to come across as an unbiased researcher when you said "Feel free to disagree and keep whining"...

And then you went on to say, "but before the 7.0 patch I could get about 15-20% damage per shot on a KV. It seems to be about the same in this post-7.0 experiment, or maybe a couple % less".

You don't say WHERE you aimed, pre or post-7.0, and this "evidence" ("I could get about 15-20% damage per shot on a KV") is anecdotal. You went to all the trouble to try and make a conclusion based upon the scientific method, then resort to this.

Ah damn, there goes my hopes at a Nobel Prize for WoT.  

But yes, you are right, I didn't do any quantitative testing prior to the patch, so it's conjecture to make statements about pre- vs. post-7.0 damage.  So +1 to you sir for pointing this out, and I have modified my original post accordingly.  

The scope of our experiment was mainly limited to quantifying damage numbers and investigating some of the ideas about places to splash HE damage (under the tank, on the engine deck, etc.).  I have found that the results have been helpful to me on the actual battlefield, and am still having a ball running the 105 on the Sherman.

[sampak]

Nice test. As a note about the random penetrating shot, I've had this happen more than twice vs. a Type 59, twice shooting it's lower front hull caused full 410-440 damage - 2 times in a row from my 105mm on the E2 (and I recall clearly it was not a bounce off the hull->ground->splash, but a direct hit).  Surprised the he77 outta me.

I also recall doing full damage one more time vs a Type 59 with a direct rear hull armor hit.

[ZverMohnatyj]

1. Just as an FYI - a week or two ago, SerB and Storm have stated that per their statistical records, the average damage from HE rounds "globally" (i.e. across all gun and shell types) went down by about 20 points post-patch.

That's the only number they've deigned to release to us thus far, but at least it's something to go off, especially if you reconcile it against the "number of games per tank type" in the unofficial stats thread (i.e. it is possible to run those numbers and figure out the distribution of high-tier and low-tier HE guns...but someone else is going to have to run with that task).

2. Empirically speaking, carefully aiming a HE round produces about the same damage amount as before. Of course, I mostly drive higher-tiers, so it's mostly situations like "shooting a HE D-10T round at a charging T-54, aiming to angle the splash through the top deck right below the mantlet". [Did 6%-9% damage, stable over multiple shots, so almost exactly 100-150 damage off a 330 average damage shell; using the HE formula and assuming a "close-to-zero" splash distance, that's about 15-65 for armor reduction, which means that yes, I basically was placing them right on the top deck.] The point is, I wasn't shooting with or at a KV (or anything of its tier), so can't speak to things like the Jumbo's 105mm.

3. One thing that none of these calculations yet take into account is that at higher tiers, HE rounds will be able to penetrate the sides of French tanks (e.g. the Tier 10 heavy's sides are 30mm and practically vertical; one of the video-guides released thus far clearly shows VK2801 rounds penetrating the side of an AMX-13 turret for about 55% average damage; etc.]

In other words, the "20 point global damage reduction" in #1 just might turn into a "global damage increase" once that mechanic kicks in (probably in about a month and a half or so, i.e. once we have a stable population of higher-tier French tanks across all servers).

[thetap]

Also keep in mind that they've stated they're looking at the "1.3" modifier in the HE damage calculation. So a possible damage increase for those that can aim. (Can't be bothered linking, it's in the Q&A thread on this page.)

[ZverMohnatyj]

Quote

Also keep in mind that they've stated they're looking at the "1.3" modifier in the HE damage calculation. So a possible damage increase for those that can aim. (Can't be bothered linking, it's in the Q&A thread on this page.)

You're right (Storm and SerB have said several times in the past two weeks that if HE damage doesn't fit whatever they want it to fit, they might revise the 1.3x multiplier) - but now that I think about it, any such (downward) revision might actually help people who cannot aim. Changing the multiplier on a 30mm top deck plate doesn't really do anything; changing it on a 120mm or a 160mm glacis might actually "add back" the 20 points HE rounds lost on a "global average" basis.

Regardless, you'd still be better off aiming HE shots than not. But it actually does make sense, in a way - if you want to raise the "average" damage, you bring up the bottom rather than improve the top...

[DracoArgentum]

thetap, on Dec 29 2011 - 01:39, said:

Also keep in mind that they've stated they're looking at the "1.3" modifier in the HE damage calculation. So a possible damage increase for those that can aim. (Can't be bothered linking, it's in the Q&A thread on this page.)

I thought they put that in one of the later 7.0 tests?

[ZverMohnatyj]

Quote

I thought they put that in one of the later 7.0 tests?

As of last week, all they've said was - "we're considering it". Doesn't seem to have changed in 7.1 (not in the detailed patch notes, as far as I recall), so we're talking at least 7.2 here (if at all).

[DarkElf]

It's a nerf alright, i read last night overlord Q&A at EU forum say m4 win rate down by 3%, Vk 2801 down by 11%, and several other HE tank like M5 win rate down by several point too. For some reason i can't find it again this morning maybe already compiled to archive.

Problem with HE nerf,
1. it not affect tier 1-3 tank, in this tier tank have enough speed to flank and usually they can pen everything that they faced frontally or by flanking.
2. it's beneficial to tier 7-10 tank because they can't be touch frontally by small tank anymore and usually they already have enough pen to pen any tank.
3. it affect tier 4-6 tank negatively. They often put against tier 7-9 tank that they can't pen frontally, flanking sometime is not an option, asking tier 5 TD to flank IS3/KT/T32 is suicide.

Coincidentally or not,  tier 4-6 tank is the credit maker tank for non premium user, and several of the top credit maker is using HE for main ammo for example  KV and M4 105. Or as backup to reset cap or finish the 1% enemy  when put in high tier battle  PZ IV, T34, VK3601(h) etc

For example yesterday i play with SU85 stock, thrown into high tier battle in open map, my equivalent in enemy rank only 1 KV3 and 2 arty, the other is even higher tier. Literally there is nothing i can do, not have enough speed to flank or scout, shooting HE in my enemy result in bounce or not even 1% damage after several time hit, while shooting AP also result in bounce. Hunting arty using TD clearly is not possible. Even if i follow our heavy, i can do nothing to help them beside act as another body to be shoot by the enemy.

Disclaimer this nerf beneficial for me, most of my tank already tier 7+, have enough pen to pen frontally any tank and i'm going to get prem  tank with USA patch next month. But its harder to teach/explain to my friends that i bring to play WoT, most of them in tier 4-6 (they have lowe/type 59 for credit grind), can't say use HE if you can't pen anymore. Anything that make new comer have harder time to play the game (reducing fun) is not good. Sitting in bush for 5 minutes for chance to track something definitely not fun.

[lostwingman]

You know what would help? Accuracy buffs to the HE dependent guns/tanks like the M4-105 and VK2801-105...

[thetap]

Kruzenshtern, on Dec 29 2011 - 03:30, said:

You're right (Storm and SerB have said several times in the past two weeks that if HE damage doesn't fit whatever they want it to fit, they might revise the 1.3x multiplier) - but now that I think about it, any such (downward) revision might actually help people who cannot aim. Changing the multiplier on a 30mm top deck plate doesn't really do anything; changing it on a 120mm or a 160mm glacis might actually "add back" the 20 points HE rounds lost on a "global average" basis.

Regardless, you'd still be better off aiming HE shots than not. But it actually does make sense, in a way - if you want to raise the "average" damage, you bring up the bottom rather than improve the top...

Oops, you're quite correct.