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Lopsided matches


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Renegd #1 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 18:56

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Why are there so many lopsided matches?  

I can end up in 20 straight losing end lopsided matches (losing 4-11, 3-12, etc...)... it is so strange like the game randomly changes a teams ammo hit points and it seems like your team is shooting rubber and the other team is shooting uranium tipped rounds or has "chobham" on it. I know this sounds silly but is there a "randomizer" in the game or is the match maker making that many mistakes in a row and I am just unlucky??

I have asked others in game this and they see the same as I am seeing. I know you can't control the actions of the other 14 players on your team, but this many lopsided battles is very strange and points to there being a reason for it that no one wants to officially provide.

The game when it first came out was fun, but now that has wore off and this anamoly is going to run off players to other games.

Garbad #2 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:01

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A lopsided score doesn't mean a game wasn't close. That first kill doesn't mean its 14 fighting 15, often it means in some local area 2 are now fighting 1, and thus easily win, meaning now 3 are fighting 1 somewhere else, and so on. Its a tactics fail more often than a MM fail.

Ironmonger69 #3 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:11

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It usually means one team stuck together and worked together, while the other scattered around willy-nilly and fed themselves to the beast peicemeal.  Stand together or die alone, and all that good stuff.  See that happen waaaay to much where guys just bunch up then trickle in like they think they're in a Bruce Lee film or something

lord_farquad #4 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:23

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View PostGarbad, on Jan 02 2012 - 19:01, said:

A lopsided score doesn't mean a game wasn't close. That first kill doesn't mean its 14 fighting 15, often it means in some local area 2 are now fighting 1, and thus easily win, meaning now 3 are fighting 1 somewhere else, and so on. Its a tactics fail more often than a MM fail.


^this


9/10 times if you look at who "should" win, and who "should" lose that doesn't hold true. That's because the game's outcome is inherently more dependent on the skill of the players (skill in whatever tanks they're driving) on the teams than what tanks they're driving.

DonSmegma #5 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:31

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I find that such games start off fine, with everyone moving out and heading off to known choke-points and areas of engagement. Once the squads of tanks find each other, they begin trading shells until one side gets the upper hand. A lucky hit, an irretrievable mistake by a key tank, a bullseye by an artillery shell - all of these can turn the tide of battle quickly, and before you know it, the whole flank falls. Two, three tanks: pow, pow pow. And now the enemy team has a load of tanks who are free to go on as they wish. They can push for the base, or come around and help on another flank where your allies suddenly find themselves engaged from an unexpected angle. The whole team begins to fall like flies, and you end up with 15-5. It's a cascade effect, and a small hole is quickly and naturally exploited.

I believe an additional effect comes from winner's confidence. A squad who have just punched their way clean through a flank are going to feel unstoppable, and play aggressively and well. An embattled team who are reeling from the shock of losing three tanks take a fatalistic approach to their coming defeat. A losing team takes fewer risks, or just begins to play half-heartedly because they feel the end is near. I'd say that the advantage of the winning side is strengthened by this effect. (Incidentally, I think Type 59s show this effect as well - not being expensive to repair, their drivers take crazy risks which often pay off. The 59 basks in victory, and is not punched so hard by defeat. They must feel on top of the World...of Tanks).

MacXlII #6 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:42

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Everything that has been said about skill is true, and it is totally within reason for a "outmatched" team to win given better performance.  However, this mentality mainly applies to platoons or company battles.  I have been seeing a bunch of this lately:

Photo removed due to dumb logic.

Yea, sure, we could've won that one, but being out-tiered by a total of 9 points is pretty bad.  After all, it is a *random* battle, which means no one knows which players are good or not, so being out-tiered is a bad start. Lopsided battles can be fun if you are working with your team, but in random battles, teamwork is a scarce commodity.

EDIT: I am in no way "shaming" anyone by posting a prematch shot where I didnt talk about the match itself at all.  The only thing I pointed out is that the matchmaker didnt split teams well...how is that insulting to anyone?

Nichts #7 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:44

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View PostGarbad, on Jan 02 2012 - 19:01, said:

A lopsided score doesn't mean a game wasn't close. That first kill doesn't mean its 14 fighting 15, often it means in some local area 2 are now fighting 1, and thus easily win, meaning now 3 are fighting 1 somewhere else, and so on. Its a tactics fail more often than a MM fail.

This, exactly.

I've got a replay of a game kicking around somewhere, where 3/4s of my team went to the island on Komarin, faced off against less than a half dozen of the enemy's tanks... and somehow, when all was said and done, two mediums emerged from the rubble virtually unscathed.

The problem in that case, I bet, is that my team was tripping over itself, and with two arty zeroed in on the island, it was hard for them  not to miss. Didn't matter that we had way more fire power on the island... we deployed it in the worst way possible.

That game did end very lopsided.

vespid #8 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 19:47

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First of all, remember that in all those matches that you lost so lopsidedly, the other team won. Most of us have a negative bias were the bad losses reinforce these notions more than the good games.

But that aside, as to WHY matches become lopsided, I would suggest that when a player notices that their team is losing, perhaps down 5 tanks to 2 for example, they often start playing differently, playing more for themselves than for the team, thus there is the greater potential for the quicksand effect - a team that can see that it lost will now start playing that way, especially if a team loses their top tanks early.

rinying #9 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 20:16

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http://www.mediafire...dcbd19hr6dxa7aq

sry i cant post the screeny, the global upload quota never refreshes itself for me.
but on the screeny you can see me, alive in an m4 sherman, with 4 kills. i am the only one alive on my team, and ive been barely hurt. the simple point is that yes, you will get on crap teams, you will have sheer and utter disappointments by your teammates, but ultimately, if you do badly, you will lose no matter what your teammates did, if you did amazingly, you will win, no matter what your teammates did (well, not litterally, but in my mind i won that battle) the simple fact of the matter is, its all up to you, are you going to go out and save a tracked teammate, are you going to nail that tank to make it retreat, or go after the one that is nearly dead that is retreating?

rinying #10 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 20:26

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View PostDonSmegma, on Jan 02 2012 - 19:31, said:

I find that such games start off fine, with everyone moving out and heading off to known choke-points and areas of engagement. Once the squads of tanks find each other, they begin trading shells until one side gets the upper hand. A lucky hit, an irretrievable mistake by a key tank, a bullseye by an artillery shell - all of these can turn the tide of battle quickly, and before you know it, the whole flank falls. Two, three tanks: pow, pow pow. And now the enemy team has a load of tanks who are free to go on as they wish. They can push for the base, or come around and help on another flank where your allies suddenly find themselves engaged from an unexpected angle. The whole team begins to fall like flies, and you end up with 15-5. It's a cascade effect, and a small hole is quickly and naturally exploited.

I believe an additional effect comes from winner's confidence. A squad who have just punched their way clean through a flank are going to feel unstoppable, and play aggressively and well. An embattled team who are reeling from the shock of losing three tanks take a fatalistic approach to their coming defeat. A losing team takes fewer risks, or just begins to play half-heartedly because they feel the end is near. I'd say that the advantage of the winning side is strengthened by this effect. (Incidentally, I think Type 59s show this effect as well - not being expensive to repair, their drivers take crazy risks which often pay off. The 59 basks in victory, and is not punched so hard by defeat. They must feel on top of the World...of Tanks).
i have one more screenie for you,

http://www.mediafire...b1xy8908fbicxtu
2 actually, but these should prove my point im about to make. ok by your logic a winning team is one who feels unstoppable, but , and i emphasize BUT, 1 tank can and will put a stop to that. during this battle on arctic region, i went straight up to the top, went about halfway killing every enemy tank i saw, and then saw my base being captured, right there i made the decision to defend the base by returning. by the time i had gotten to the base i was undetected, and the last player on my team, at this point i proceeded to start nailing to cappers, to prevent them from capping to 100%. after i had taken care of them i noticed i was being peppered with HE, so i started nailing the jagdpanzer 4 who was nailing me, an is who was at 5-10 percent drove right up behind him and i nailed him before he could react, then i shot the jagdpanzer causing a fire to occur on it, thus allowing me 1 more shot to finish him. i ended that battle with 9 killed 2 detected, 12 hits received and 19 shots fired. my point being, its not the team who is feeling on top of the world, its the driver of the tank.

Kruppcake #11 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 20:27

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For folks who post screenshots or links to screenshots, just a reminder that you need to blot out all player names except your own.  Leaving player names visible is considered a form of "naming and shaming," and can be construed as a personal attack / harassment if a negative point is being made.  You can be banned for that if a moderator notices, or if someone reports you.

rinying #12 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 20:32

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View PostKruppcake, on Jan 02 2012 - 20:27, said:

For folks who post screenshots or links to screenshots, just a reminder that you need to blot out all player names except your own.  Leaving player names visible is considered a form of "naming and shaming," and can be construed as a personal attack / harassment if a negative point is being made.  You can be banned for that if a moderator notices, or if someone reports you.

really? i dont have access to photoshop or a like program so im sry if i meant it for a shame and name. i was just posting some battles that i had that were relevant to the thread.

PiperKyle1 #13 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 20:48

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View Postrinying, on Jan 02 2012 - 20:32, said:

really? i dont have access to photoshop or a like program so im sry if i meant it for a shame and name. i was just posting some battles that i had that were relevant to the thread.

Paint will work just fine. and am I the only one who can't get mediafire to work on their computer???? this is annoying

Ironmonger69 #14 Posted Jan 02 2012 - 22:13

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View Postrinying, on Jan 02 2012 - 20:32, said:

really? i dont have access to photoshop or a like program so im sry if i meant it for a shame and name. i was just posting some battles that i had that were relevant to the thread.

Yeah, be caeful with that.  It's not like they'll hang you up by the short hairs, but they can be touchy about if it's borderline like this thread.  And windows comes with paint.

You can post pics from another site by using the "insert image" button in the post editor, and putting the HTTP address there rather than link, and embed your photo from another site.  Don't need to upload here, just somewhere that shares.

DarthBoBo #15 Posted Jan 03 2012 - 01:57

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To me some of it is the team of course. Why did he/she do that ? Partly the MM.

But there also seems to be an element of chance not actually being chance. I have noticed that in quite a lot of battles I get lots of bounces, critical hits with no damage or just plain misses. If that happens to me more than two or three times in a row, I know we are probably on a hiding to nothing. OK If I am at long range then fair enough, but I am talking about in a street fight. On the other side of the coin I can fire hit someone and do huge, damage say wow and be on a big winning side. Great you would think.

The problem I have is that almost all battles are now short and end up 15 to 6 or 7 or 2 even. I have had plenty of those today both ways round. It is frustrating to lose big and less fun to win big. I honestly believe that somewhere along the line there was some "tweaking" done to speed up battles but have to say I miss close battles, they are few and far between now.

I know I have posted similar thoughts elsewhere but it seemed relevant here.

Enaris #16 Posted Jan 03 2012 - 02:49

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It is, as others have said, more related to team than to the MM (much less any thoughts of the game "favoring" one side over the other).  It'd be nice if the replay feature gave a "godmode" because you'd see it fairly clearly.  A localized victory not only gives the confidence others have spoken of, but it also gives the ability to exploit that newfound advantage onto another part of the battle, and the rout is on.

Let's take a couple of fairly common examples.

#1) The Uber-scout.  Yeah, Suicide Scouting is an iffy proposition, but there are times they can win a battle in the first 2 minutes.  If one gets into the enemy arty park, they can win the battle.  It doesn't make a difference if they get the arty kills themselves, or just let friendly arty break out the destruction, one side that is suddenly missing that huge chunk of their firepower is in deep trouble, and will likely get bulldozed.

#2) The crossfire.  Take Murovanka.  The team that starts on the south side may have one wing that swings due N, W of the long hill, while another screens the Town and Forrest.  If the force pushing the W side is able to cleanly break through, they can then create crossfires (along with the guys who should now be pushing into the town) on anything defending.

Those are just a few examples, but the overall point remains, a bulldozer job is generally created by player(s) exploiting early success and creating an increasing spiral of superiority on the map.