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Can I actually do anything? Like the main two purposes of a medium tank from what I gather on this forum are to scout and to deal damage from the flanks, but in these matches I can't actually scout because I can get 1 shot from even the higher tiered mediums and don't even start me on doing damage to anything that isn't artillery . I frequently have games that I have 0 real damage done, 20 shots that hit and 17 critical hits that dealt 0%.

What should I do? I'm running the gun on the M4 that has better penetration than the 105 and armor pen shells.

The 105 did get nerfed, sadly, but it's still THE gun to use on the tank, to my understanding.

There's not much you can do in sucky battles like that, to be honest.  Tiers 4, 5 and 6 are shafted in this regard, as I'm sure you've noticed.

In the end, back when I had those tanks, I threw HE at stuff till it broke, or I did.  While more difficult to do post-7.0, it's still viable.

 garmeth, on Jan 04 2012 - 04:50, said:

You should use HE shells against tanks that you can't penetrate. You'll do some damage against them. Also remember that the M4 isn't that fast, you cant use it to scout like a T-50-2, so take it slow, there's no need to suicide rush unless you like being an easy target.

I'm confused now T.T. What purpose do the armor pen shells have then? I thought it would be smarter to use the HE on things that I can penetrate so I get consistent super high damage shots on them. You're telling me if I use HE shells and they bounce off of like a t7 that I will still do damage?

AP shells are to maximize damage. HE is for when you want to make sure you do damage.

For example, when going up against something you can't penetrate with AP, use HE. When finishing off an enemy and you want to make sure it kills him, use HE. When going after soft targets, primarily open top ones as they have the least armour, you may want to use HE.

Nothing, the M4 is now the worst Tier 5 tank after the HE nerf.  You can't scout because it's the second slowest tank, after the KV.  Go through the M7 line, at least it's fast enough to scout.

at that point the best you can do is aim for tracks to cripple big heavy's and use your view range and speed to help spot for the heavy's. the best way to help them is stick close to you allies and play peekaboo with the enemy lighti8ng them up the the arty. when you can make a beeline for the base to take out the enemy artys or take the base causing the enemy to either come back or risk losing thus taking pressure off your ally's.

I'm going to get negged for not agreeing with popular opinion (that's some great justice there) but honestly, the 105 isn't that bad. Aim at weaker spots. Now, people say "well if I'm gonna ail at weak spots, why don't I just use AP?". Right. Go try penning the Lowe's gun mantlet with an AP shell on your Sherman, and tell me how well that works out for you. No, what I mean is, HE weak spots. A common one on a lot of tanks is the gun mantlet. As far as I can tell, the HE blast goes into the gun, or maybe the commanders cupola, allowing you to do over 100 damage to a Lowe, and E75, and just about any other tank. KV5 is an exception. Shoot at the front hull, the blast goes into R2D2 and does 100+ damage.

 Silty, on Jan 04 2012 - 05:01, said:

Man I'm not having much luck huh, first the famed "garbage truck" M3 Lee awkward tank destroyer and now claims that the m4 is the worst tank in T5 t.t.

Hm, thanks guys for the info about the shells and tactics, making me less of a noob =D.

You can do something in T7&8 fights with both guns. You just have to be smart and not be the guy in the front.

You get compensated with more exp and credits for doing even minor damage. I don't mind these fights at all.

The guys saying the short 105 sucks are just bad players, who don't know how to use the gun and probably a medium tank from looking over their stats.. They don't think you can aim it and don't try, they just whine about how the tank sucks now. I love it, and it's as my main money maker and think it may have improved with 7.0. Pretty sure I got my Oskins in it with the 105 after 7.0.

(Borrowed from Wallacia's Newsletter thread)

If you are in with tier 8  you better hope you have the 105 mounted.

As noted above its not as good as it used to be, but in this situation its clearly the best choice you have now.

 Mobius13, on Jan 04 2012 - 04:52, said:

GAH, I wasnt a fan of Derps before, I CERTAINLY hate the thing now.  I bought back my M4 just to see what people loved about that 105 and im not seeing it.  I played it for 2 battles, first battle, 100 dmg off a T40 TD, 100 off an M4, dead.

2nd Battle, 1 shotted a Russian T28, 2 shotted an M4 Sherman, dead.

my conclusion is if I am going to deal 100dmg every 8 seconds with the Derp then I might as well just deal 100dmg every 4 with the 76, though I hate both those guns...I just sold my M4 again...meh...

 KnightFandragon, on Jan 04 2012 - 14:37, said:

Actually if your shell had reached the *open top* of the T40, it would have been a one shot KO.

It is really about positioning. Try to put yourself in a position on the map where you will be flanking people. It IS possible. An example is the south "hill upon a hill" area on Karelia. The heavies usually like to play peek-a-boo around the corners at the base of the hill because it is tough for artillery to get after them there. If you use your speed to seize the position, though, you will have flanking fire on them as they peek. If you can track them, your heavies will probably offer to kiss your feet after they pound the hapless victim mercilessly. If the enemy tries to get after you, they will expose themselves to fire from your heavies. Of course, oftentimes the enemies mediums will be trying to take the same spot, but that is a fight on more even terms, isn't it? The position also has the advantages of a monstrous field of fire onto the entire middle of the map. That means you'll be spotting pretty much everything. There are lots of places like that on the various maps that mediums can get to early that heavies just can't. Another is the hill on Himmelsdorf, although I don't find it quite so crucial because of all the cover on the rest of the map.

The M4 has decent speed and tank traverse. You need to use that. The 105mm isn't the answer to your prayers. I like the 76mm, even in higher tier games.

Hit those tier 7's and 8's in the side and rear. If they are "looking" at someone else, shoot the side of their turrets. Most American tanks, for instance, have an ammo rack in the side and rear turret. The key is to be unobtrusive. Let the big guys engage and then make your move. Most people get tunnel vision when the shells start flying. If you can wait to reveal yourself until their tunnel vision has set in, you can kill and survive.

If you master this stuff, you'll be well on your way to doing well with the rest of the American mediums, I expect. I've moved on to the E8. Although my stats on the Sherman suck (I spent a LONG time learning that the Sherman isn't a German tank, even if it rhymes ), it paid off in the long run. I feel pretty deadly in every match I'm given in the E8. And I routinely see tier 9's. Hit those tracks. A heavy tank in the open that is stationary is food for artillery. Type 59's hate being immobile as well. And the high rate of fire with the 76mm gun means even if you miss, you have another chance in just a few seconds. Be dogged. Stay alive. Keep shooting. Look for flanks.

Bob

When my M4 is placed in a Tier 7-8 battle, I don't mind it at all.  

My strategy varies a little from map to map (and what the rest of the team does), but it usually follows the sequence below.  Admittedly, this play style won't work for many or most, and I don't remember whether it works well with the 76 since I've been using the 105 for a long time now.  I'm sure there's probably a good way to be effective with the 76 in these high tier games since there are plenty of 76 lovers out there.

1. For the first 2-3 minutes of the game, stay in between your front line of heavies/TDs and your arty to intercept any suicide scouts.  Usually I don't worry too much about cover since enemy arty won't usually bother with you.  More important to track or kill the enemy scout and protect your arty.  

2. For mid-game, do not engage Tier 7/8 heavies at close range.  In most cases, you can't circle/outflank them at close range very effectively like you can KVs.  For mid game, I usually move up about 50 m behind the heavies/TDs and take pot shots at engaged enemies.  If you stay far enough back from cover you can become an invisitank and can just pound away with reckless abandon.  If you haven't had any reckless abandon lately, I'd suggest you go to down to your WalMarts and buy youself a case.  I digress.  I use the 105 and get plenty of 0-5% damage critical hits.  Don't be discouraged by this, cause critical hits to Tier 7/8 heavies can tip the battle in your favor (I speak from experience in my T29 and T32).  If you have arty on your team and the enemy heavies are manuevering across open ground, the #1 best thing you can do is track them (and it's still pretty easy to do with the 105).  Your arty will love you for it, and your team's heavies will as well since they won't have to waste their higher pen/damage shot on tracking the tank.  If tracking is not a good option, then aim the 105 at the base of the enemy turret.  That location has the best chance for damage (and likely criticals too), see here.  If you are so far away that the enemy tank fits in your aiming recticle, then that's ok too... just fire away and hope for a nice critty (take out his gun, track him, damage the fuzzy dice hanging from his rear view mirror...).  

3.  If spotted by Tier 7/8 heavy or other higher tier TD, they usually go for you since you are an easy 1- or 2-shot kill.  Use this to your advantage.  When they are focusing on you, it means they are ignoring your nearby heavies.  So grab some cover and take a break from firing.  Many times they will keep their aim trained on your last position, waiting for you to reappear so they can get that irresistably yummy 1-shot.  Make them wait... and wait... and wait.  Don't play peek-a-boo unless you have no other choice.  After about 5-10 seconds, you'll likely go invisitank again.  Unless you know your enemy tank has changed his aim, then continue to wait for a little while.  Usually I resist the urge for a follow-up peek-a-boo shot.  If I thnk/know that the enemy has given up waiting on you (or is repositioning) I take a deep breath and usually reposition to another area for a "surprise" shot on a completely different enemy tank (shoot and scoot).  

4.  The other option early- or mid-game is to grab a bush (or debris/corner of building) about a third or half-way up the map on a lightly-defended flank and act as a spotter/early warning system.  This is effective even when there is no arty, cause at least you can let your team know what's coming so they can (hopefully) respond accordingly.  When spotted, I usually find that I die pretty quickly.  That's ok... you are a pawn in these games.  If nothing's going on, resist the urge to push unless you know (by looking at your minimap) that about 90% of the enemy tanks are accouted for and are not in your path forward.  So don't take your eyes off the minimap, unless you can use this downtime to check email or get in quick workout (then it's probably ok).  When's the last time you called your mother?  Shame!  

5.  If you are still alive by the time one or both of the the teams whittle down to 5 tanks each (or so), then congratulations.  When my team looks like its going to lose (usually not your fault since you're only a pawn), I usually continue to back up my remaining heavies and deal as much damage as I can (or try to reset the enemy trying to cap you... good xp and credits there).  If my team is losing badly and I am alone on a flank (#4 above), I usually reposition behind the heavies or head back to base.  Sometimes I go for the enemy cap if I know where all enemy tanks are (this is rare).  When I am winning like Charlie Sheen (usually not your fault since you're only a pawn), I usually continue to back up the heavies.  If I am aware of most/all of the enemy positions, towards the end of the game I even engage in foolish peek-a-boo, since at this point, your team will probably win regardless of what your little M4 does.  If winning by a large margin but some of the enemy tanks remain hidden, I usually stay back halfway between the main push and your base just in case any enemy sneaks around for an attempted cap.  Use this time to admire the scenery and type your gjts and ggs.

Happy hunting and die honorably.  Don't despair: you'll be back to 1-shotting those Hetzers in no time.

 garmeth, on Jan 04 2012 - 04:50, said:

Just recently, I was in such a battle.  M4A1/76.
I hung with our heavies and damaged 6 of their tanks, including an M26 and T59.  
I didnt kill anything and I didn't survive, but I made 40k credits.

So, the answer is yes, you can do something.

 Mow_Mow, on Jan 04 2012 - 10:38, said:

Damn, thats funny.  Where are more of those? Imma have to go google that newletter you said that comes from.

 KnightFandragon, on Jan 06 2012 - 01:16, said:

an m4, as an archetypal medium tank, should be doing the archetypal medium tank's job - screening heavies.