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US Guns, German Armor, Pt 1.


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The_Chieftain #1 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 03:27

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US ARMY ANTI-ARMOR FIRING TESTS OF 1944

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In the summer of 1944 the US Army forces in the European Theater of Operations (ETO) conducted a series of test-firings that are much quoted to this day by researchers and wargamers. These test-firings disputed the official line on the effectiveness of the guns and ammunition being provided by the Army's Department of Ordnance, and provided substantive feedback that changed some of the long-held assumptions and methods of Ordnance testing and specifications.

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RithMatic #2 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:02

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great and interesting stuff
thanks for posting

thetap #3 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:05

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Interesting!

the_moidart #4 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:09

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Nice to see a fair critique of both American and British capabilities.

The low penetration of the American M4 guns has been pretty well rendered in-game, it'd be nice if the inaccuracy of the so-called superior sabot rounds was too.

DiscoSatan #5 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:31

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Another outstanding article! Keep em coming! :Smile_great:

gobind21 #6 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:57

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I really enjoyed reading this! I can't wait for part 2. I never knew the 17 pounder sabot round were so innacurate! Most of what I have read confirms what I ve seen in WoT and Company of Heroes (with the realism adding Blitzkrieg mod)

JamesDean #7 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 05:59

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Very nice work!

I still to this day shake my head when I think of the inadequacies of our tank v. tank combat in WWII.  I know we could've saved more lives with better tanks.

DerRittmeister #8 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:03

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Well,in WoT they seem to have fixed the Allies penetration problems.Most everything doesn't seem to have much trouble penetrating the $#!^ outta my PzV.

General_Arndt #9 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:18

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How about fixing the German armor in the game to reflect the better steel they used.

TheHasegawaEffect #10 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:26

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Freaking hilarious read. XD

Dominatus #11 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:28

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View PostGeneral_Arndt, on Jan 05 2012 - 07:18, said:

How about fixing the German armor in the game to reflect the better steel they used.

According to secret stats, leaked out a long time ago, the Tiger is one of the few tanks that gets armour strength bonuses. That said, as Chieftan pointed out, German tanks appeared to have inconsistent characteristics, and hardened armour is not without its own disadvantages. This is also ignoring the fact that Russian armour was probably even harder than German armour, although to the point where it would shatter on impact.

Anyways, very conprehensive article Chieftan. Really enjoyed reading it, and seeing the deficiencies of western weapons.

SenorWTF #12 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:31

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View Postpanzerpat, on Jan 05 2012 - 07:03, said:

Well,in WoT they seem to have fixed the Allies penetration problems.Most everything doesn't seem to have much trouble penetrating the $#!^ outta my PzV.
If you re-read the reports, they state that american m4 tanks were easily capable of penetrating the pz4 armor at reasonable ranges... The thing that shocked the hell out of the Allies were the Tiger (nigh unbeatable) and the Panther (unbeatable and plentiful) the Panzer 5 Panther and the Panzer 6 Tiger and Tiger Two were a whole different animal than the tank you are using... so basically, they really are staying relatively accurate.

SenorWTF #13 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:34

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View PostGeneral_Arndt, on Jan 05 2012 - 07:18, said:

How about fixing the German armor in the game to reflect the better steel they used.
alot of times they do... I use Jagdpanther and t20, plus IS. All are elite status, and all are incapable of penetrating the frontal armor of the VK3601 at medium-close range about 50% of the time... seems to me that they are plenty hard... Again chieftain, wonderful read. At the end of the month, I'll be leaving for basic training to become an active duty 36w unit health specialist(combat medic) for the U.S. Army, but I've always had a soft spot for tanks... (hell, if I could have 2 MOS, I'd be a tanker too...)

Vikarion #14 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 07:57

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I love this stuff.  Want more.  :Smile_great:

KingN8 #15 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 08:07

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View PostVikarion, on Jan 05 2012 - 07:57, said:

I love this stuff.  Want more.  :Smile_great:
?

Blitzkrieger #16 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 08:18

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thanks again for another good read chief now back to watching old school movie battleground

Smug #17 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 08:54

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Quote


ТИГ - TIG(-er?)  :rolleyes:

DerRittmeister #18 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 09:14

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View PostSenorWTF, on Jan 05 2012 - 07:31, said:

If you re-read the reports, they state that american m4 tanks were easily capable of penetrating the pz4 armor at reasonable ranges... The thing that shocked the hell out of the Allies were the Tiger (nigh unbeatable) and the Panther (unbeatable and plentiful) the Panzer 5 Panther and the Panzer 6 Tiger and Tiger Two were a whole different animal than the tank you are using... so basically, they really are staying relatively accurate.
PzV is the Panther.You obviously mis-read my post.If you'll re-read it,you'll see I never mentioned the PzIV.Also,I didn't mean for it to be taken seriously enough for anyone to waste time replying to it.

Eidolonius #19 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 09:20

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To complete this, I want to see the Chieftain put up a video with the WoT tanks and see if he can get these US guns to pen these German rigs at those distances.

Dominatus #20 Posted Jan 05 2012 - 10:02

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To the guys saying US tanks can penetrate the Panther in-game, first off, the 75mm M3 cannot do so from the front. The 76mm can do so sometimes, but rarely and mainly because we are fighting at ranges less than 400m usually. On the other hand, EVERYTHING can pen the Panther's side armour, with its 40mm on the lower side plate.




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