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Why American Heavy Drivers Need To Stop Acting German.


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VirgilHilts #21 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 21:06

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View PostLandsraad, on Jan 17 2012 - 20:47, said:

That's not as impressive as it sounds.  These aren't sniper rifles, they're cannons, just because a coke can disappeared after you shot at it with a 90mm round at 500m doesn't mean it HIT. This is a round larger than the target going at supersonic speeds we're talking about, if it gets anywhere near a target that small while in-flight it's doing some serious damage.  As to the 155mm on the T30, well, if that's a howitzer then I'm the Queen of England.


Well, "your majesty", that claimed accuracy at 500M is not outside the realm of possibility, nor likelihood. All that is necessary is to secure the "targets" so that the shock wave does not move them. Factory experts on the tanks and weapons were known to use German helmets as targets to demonstrate that the job was done correctly.

In order to produce anything close to a strike on the target at 500M, the accuracy, in WoT terms, would have to be close to 0.3M @ 500M, or 1/3 of a meter at 500 meters, about 1 foot at 500 yards. A far cry from 0.35M or worse at a mere 100M, or, more than 1 foot at a mere 100 yards.

As to the T7 155M "cannon", it was far closer to a "Howitzer" type weapon than an actual accurate anti tank weapon, given the relatively low velocity and low accuracy. The low velocity means that it loses penetrating power and accuracy rapidly over distance, and requires a greater trajectory. The velocity of the T7 155MM is 2600 feet per second, 400 feet per second below the lowest velocity AP round for the T5E1 105MM, never mind the T5E2 105MM, the cannon actually fitted to the T29 in real life. That's also lower than the lowest velocity AP round for both the T53 120MM cannon on the T34, and the M58 120MM cannon on the M103.

Toasted_Rofls #22 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 21:31

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American tanks are like the scrappy underdogs of WoT. No one can really understand why, but they are really, really good. The Pershing is a good example. No one really understands what it offers hard stat wise, but it is an amazing tank, even though the Panther II mounts a better gun and the T-44 brawls better.

The American heavies are no different. After the T29, what you get is turret armor, gun depression, and that is about it. The T32 has to make do with a gun that is completely inadequate for its role, and the T34 and the T30 pretty much only have their guns. The T32 in particular is an interesting tank in this regard. Me and Faustian had a conversation about this. The T32 is constantly being nerfed, because WG wants to lower its win percentage below 51%, but they just can't seem to make the tank fail. It allready offers less handling then the KT but without the armor or gun, less speed then the IS-3, also without the gun, and much less overall mobility compared to the VK4502 Ausf. A, which also gets superior gun compared to it. Really, all the T32 has is amazing turret armor, and recently, they took that away as well by nerfing the commanders cupola armor. Yet, still, the tank performs. I think I have a right to bitch about the American heavy line still, however, in particular, the fact the French tier 6 heavy gets a gun with superior pen then my tier 8 T32. People who think the amount of pen on the T32 is "fine" are idiots who have never played the KT. The KT gets through the E-75's front, the front of the T-54 and E-50, the IS-4 with more reliablity on the drivers hatch, the upper glacis of other KT's, the front of the IS-3 with more reliability, and the sides of many tanks with more reliability. The T32 cannot claim this.

Really, the American heavy line is fascinating in this regard. However, the T34 is not an acceptable tank to be thrown to your average pub driver, nor is the T30, and so they are being replaced, but many of the bitching has been justified. American tanks are the only tanks I know of where instead of being elevated above their actual historical abilities for game balance reasons, have their actual abilities downplayed for the exact same reason that the IS-4 gets the S-70. The T29 doesn't even get its historical gun, because that would be too powerful for the tier. The Slugger and Wolverine are nowhere near there historical values in terms of mobility and gun depression, and don't even get there historically accurate engine. The Pershing's long 90 for instance, had much higher pen IRL I believe, as it was made to match the firepower of the long 88, which went through well over 200mm of armor, easily. I believe it was around 250 average, with standard AP.

Basically, the devs have been dicks to American tanks not named the T34 because they cannot seem to understand why they keep performing even when it looks like they should not. As for the T34, why they have not buffed it, I really have no idea, but next patch it gets replaced, so none of that matters anymore, I guess.

I will start acting German when my T32 gets lit on fire from the front, I guess, but I think some of the American tanker complaints are valid. Still, I think it is interesting that tanks that look like in theory they should underperform constantly exceed expectations. My T32 in particular has surprised me. The gun is bad and should feel bad, the hull armor is barely good enough for the tier, the mobility is nothing special, and the artillery damage is horrendous, as is track repair, yet still, this tank somehow is able to perform. When I am done with my T32 grind, I expect to have outperformed my KT in it, and I am really unsure as to why this is.

Basically, American tanks are like magnets, we don't know how they work.

Toasted_Rofls #23 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 21:46

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 21:36, said:

Yeah, maybe some people do good in them.  Maybe a lot of them do.  This doesn't help those of us who do really badly in American tanks, by nature.

There are currently two types of American tanks you can do bad in if you are average at best. If you are good, you should be able to do well in all of them. They are the American heavy line from the T32 and up, and the T95 and the T28, which are actually the same damn tank, but WG is just incredibly lazy, so they took off the tracks from the T95 and used the original designation, the T28, for the name. How the hell they are going to do a proto-type of a tank that never existed is beyond me.

For the mediums and the rest of the TD line, as well as the arty line, if you cannot do well in them, then you just suck. Seriously, the American medium line is amazing.

Toasted_Rofls #24 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 21:59

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 21:48, said:

Well, I did much better in my T1 and M6 than the T29.... and I did much better in my Pz3/4 than the Easy Eight.  I guess I must suck then.

Yeah, probably. Easy 8 is a fantastic tank, the people who bitch about it are generally idiots most of the time. Just because you did better in one tank, does not necessarily mean that the one you did better then is a bad tank. I outperformed my KT with my T29, but that does not mean the KT is a bad tank. The thing about higher tiers is that you have a larger impact on your teams performance more. If you are bad, playing a bigger tank will only magnify it. To be fair, the T29 is pretty much useless without the big gun, so I bet your stats would be overall much better if you started elite, assuming you did not. If you did start elite and could not make the T29 perform, then the problem is really just you.

As long as you are averaging more wins then you did losses, and this percentage is higher then your average win rate, you are doing good in the tank.

Toasted_Rofls #25 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 22:11

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 22:07, said:

Ah, I thought I was supposed to have a decent impact on the game, even with the 90mm.  I mean, I usually kill KTs and T29s by hitting the cupola or side of the turret, Tiger Ps by hitting the side of the front face of the turret, and other tier 7- tanks are easy.  I've yet to figure out how to destroy IS-3s or T32s with the 90mm though, those are hard.  I had several shots in a row bounce off the cupolas.

Nope, the short 90 is a POS, especially compared to the long 90 or the 105. You should still have an effect on the battle, but being completely unable to hurt most tier 8 heavies from the front with any reliability and struggling at times with even some tier 7 heavies is going to be an issue, especially the tier 7 heavies, which you will be expected to fight when at the top. Getting through the Tiger P's turret has recently gotten much harder, and you need to be able to confront one.

I assure you, there is a very high chance your win rate and overall performance will most likely be higher had you started with the tank elite and a 100% crew.

fatkiddown #26 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 22:14

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View PostKonflict, on Jan 17 2012 - 15:34, said:

Thanks G for the write up.

I am still on the T29 but want to go up the American Heavy Line. So much grinding :(

I took a needed break from the game, pub matches and MM just took a toll on me.

I elited the T29 and never went further, due to the forums and U.S. heavy tank bashing.  Since, I started down other lines.  I might reconsider....

Mow_Mow #27 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 22:23

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 21:48, said:

Well, I did much better in my T1 and M6 than the T29.... and I did much better in my Pz3/4 than the Easy Eight.  I guess I must suck then.

My M6 heavily outperforms my KV-3 and my T32 outperforms both my IS-3 and my KT... loved the KT though.

evhgear #28 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 22:26

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I personnally prefered the 90mm compared to the 105mm, it doesn't have bouncing problems like the 105 and have a great rof. But still the T29 is a great tank. I prefered the IS-2 even if I have a lot of fun with the T29. I never enjoyed the T1, so I skipped it. The M6 is great with the 90mm gun, you can kill a lot of things with it. And for the T32, most people seems to enjoy it a lot. I'm grinding now for it, so I will probably drive one soon, but all I remember is that I never lost a 1vs fight against a T32 with my IS-3, but IS-3 is OP as hell so can't wait to try it.

paradat #29 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 22:32

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Agree with all the postive US Heavy posts. LOL what the heck did we all sell the T32 and want it back? Looking foward to the new US tier 10 heavy maybe we will get some love.  :Smile_honoring:

Gyarados #30 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 23:33

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 18:51, said:

Wait, really? I know American heavies are more difficult than German or Soviet, but it's difficult to compare Soviet and German when trying to figure out which is more difficult.  I certainly can't see a new and aggressive player having an easier time in a German than a Soviet tank.  Or can they?
German heavies have a few things that make things a little easier to use. They may have lower damage than the Soviets, but they have more armor for most tiers, their guns are fairly accurate, they have decent HP pool, and they have the penetration to go through most tanks. They're pretty easy to play. The Soviet tanks have some speed, the damage, but they don't take damage well and their fairly inaccrate for a bit.

View PostCmd_Storm, on Jan 17 2012 - 20:13, said:

Sorry but T30 is bad, it wasnt before but it is bad now...A Tank thats all gun loses its gun`s accuracy + a 15 sec reload=Alot of missed DPM and usually death because when the enemies storm you, you dont have much the Armor to defend yourself. With E75 if you bounce your Ok it can block a ton before it hides.

ALso the T30`s accuracy on the move is really bad.

Im curious how many games the T30 was played pre Movement Nerf.
But...it's not bad. It's just not easy. There's a huge difference. Certain tanks you have to try harder, and the T30 is one of them.

Also, I played about 20 games before the nerf to movement and turret movement accuracy was placed, and I will staunchly say unto this day that I don't really see the effect of it.

Mow_Mow #31 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 23:49

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E-75 > IS-4 IMO. It's got the best of every world.

Great frontal armor, German specialty? Check.
Most accurate gun for its tier, German specialty? Check.
High vision range, German specialty? Check.
Neutral steering, German specialty? Check.
Great hull down with few turret weak spots, American specialty? Check.
Great gun depression, American specialty? Check.
Nearly invincible when angled, Soviet specialty? Check.
High alpha gun, Soviet specialty? Check.


In addition, before anyone mentions the "totally weak lower frontal plate", I would like to add that the lower plate effective thickness on the E-75 is stronger than any effective armor on the T34 with the exception of the gun mantlet, and is stronger than the driver's slit on the IS-4.

Thinking about this makes me depressed sometimes :/

Landsraad #32 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 23:51

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 23:42, said:

Tier 5: KV wins compared to PzIV
Tier 6: KV3 wins compared to VK3601H
Tier 7: IS won until the Tiger P was added
Tier 8: tossup between IS3 and KT
Tier 9: tossup between IS4 and E75
Tier 10: Maus wins compared to IS7
Tier V through VII I'm with you on, same with tier X, the others though I'm not so sure.  The IS-3 and KT are pretty evenly matched, with the IS-3 having better side armor and the KT having better frontal armor, but I have to give it to the KT because trying to angle an IS-3's front armor is suicide.  The E-75 again has less side armor than an IS-4, but I have to give this one to the E-75/VK4502B again because an IS-4's front armor just does not hold up against the 12.8cm L/55.

JDCollie #33 Posted Jan 17 2012 - 23:58

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I think Onyx, Mow_Mow (another great US player) and I have an advantage in that, as far as I know, all of us really enjoy our T34s (and one could argue, for good or bad, the T34 is essentially the ultimate distillation of the US heavy line). The enjoyment itself isn't specifically an advantage, but it is indicative of an underlying trait: The US tank line fits our playstyles very very well.

With Mow and Onyx, it is because they are incredibly skilled at using tanks to their full potential; they figured out how to play US tanks, and then applied that knowledge gleefully. In my case it is simply because US heavies are all I have really played.



What does this mean? It means that US heavies, as Gyarados has explained, don't actually suck. They just apparently require a very different approach from what is normal for other heavies.


(I haven't talked much to FaustianQ, so I don't know if he likes his T34 or not :P )

VooDooPC #34 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 00:12

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Quote

You really don't know how bad the whole line is until you play another. It's amazing getting into a high tier German tank for the first time and literally having to do next to nothing. You just drive forward and let your gun do the work for you. Whereas with US tanks you have to sweat at the keyboard just to be competitive, with the other lines, you barely have to think.

I completely agree. I unlocked almost every US tank, T30, Patton, T95 everything but the T92, that was the first thing I did after the game hit retail after I got my Object 704. I took a few months off of the game and came back to do the German E series in November I think it was. Like I said in another post when I unlocked it, I don't see any physical possible way short of mental retardation that the developers think the E-75 and T34 are equals. There is absolutely no competition. 1vs1 with equal skilled drivers I see no possible way the T34 can win.

FaustianQ #35 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 00:13

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View PostJDCollie, on Jan 17 2012 - 23:58, said:


(I haven't talked much to FaustianQ, so I don't know if he likes his T34 or not :P )

Haven't had time to buy it yet, everyone wants me to get a damned Maus for some reason so I keep sinking money into the German lines.

JDCollie #36 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 00:14

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View PostFaustianQ, on Jan 18 2012 - 00:13, said:

Haven't had time to buy it yet, everyone wants me to get a damned Maus for some reason so I keep sinking money into the German lines.
Sad day! :(

ramp4ge #37 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 00:37

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The difference between German complaints and US complaints is that the US complaints have some justification and more often then not the complaints come in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way.

The biggest issue with US tanks is that they have strengths, but to make up for those strengths they have GLARING, HUGE weaknesses. Like the T32. Great hull, fantastic turret, and a popgun. IS-3 and KT have great hulls, great turrets and death rays.. Or the T29/34/30. Good guns, paper hulls. Nobody else has to deal with that. Germans get good armor and great guns pretty much forever, Russians get great guns and good armor at most of their tiers..US tanks tend to pay for improved firepower with reduced protection. Now with the Frogs in the game suffering pretty much the same thing, we'll see how that goes. Only problem there is, while Frogs suffer the same lack of hull armor that generally plagues the US tree, they get even better guns...

You know what I'd give for a 230 pen 240 damage 90-100mm gun on the T32? Or even better, the Persh?

US is that route that you play just to be different. You don't want to play Germans or Russians because those are the "expected" things to do. All I play is US tanks anymore and have absolutely 0 desire to play Russian, German or French. I might play British, but we'll see.

Overall, there's a stark difference in the mindsets you compare. Like NF used to be, I tend to see the German subforum as a dark, damp cave full of "Woe is me!" posters. I don't see that in the US subforum.

Drive_Me_Closer #38 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 01:05

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View PostJDCollie, on Jan 17 2012 - 23:58, said:


What does this mean? It means that US heavies, as Gyarados has explained, don't actually suck. They just apparently require a very different approach from what is normal for other heavies.


Yes, and that "different approach" isn't supported as well as the german and russian lines, especially at high tiers.  US tanks can do well when the player knows what they are doing and has good situational awareness.  Soft stats really require on the fly strategy changes depending on the situation.  E75s, IS4s, E100s, Maus, and now IS7s don't really require that because nine times out of ten they can point their front at an opponent and blast away and stand a good chance of winning.  In pugs, they will only face one to two tanks with equivalent armor, and 25% of the time they will face tanks with vastly inferior armor.  There is a clear strategy to those tanks.  Keep your good armor towards the enemy, and fire your big gun.  In mirror matches these tanks will get close and the superior player will win, but otherwise it doesn't require too much from the average player to roll over the smaller tanks.  

Therein lies the rub.  Other tank lines are easier to play for the majority of players.  By WG's stats, US tanks underperform, and unlike other tanks WG really has not taken actions to rectify that, even going so far as to nerf the T30 to ensure the E100's viability.  US tanks are not a big priority for them.  It is especially bad in pugs vs. clan wars.   Clan wars largely mitigates the big issues with us (and french) tanks, and emphasizes highly skilled players.  My T30's armor doesn't matter as much since everyone is shooting gold and Maus/E100s are out there spotting for me.  Even then, I see E100/IS7 and Maus much more then T30s.  So from both overall win percentage and usage, US tanks are underperforming, and that always leads to qq in the forums no matter what game you play.

Gyarados #39 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 01:10

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View PostSilty, on Jan 17 2012 - 23:42, said:

In terms of the armor, this is what it looks like from the perspective of someone who hasn't played all the tanks:

Tier 5: KV wins compared to PzIV
Tier 6: KV3 wins compared to VK3601H
Tier 7: IS won until the Tiger P was added
Tier 8: tossup between IS3 and KT
Tier 9: tossup between IS4 and E75
Tier 10: Maus wins compared to IS7

It appears that Soviet tanks start out with more armor than German tanks, but get worse armor later on.

Perhaps the lower-tier Soviet heavies are easier, but the Germans are easier at higher tiers, once you get the long 88?  I imagine a stock VK3001P or Tiger H being horrible for a new player.
The KV obviously wins over the Panzer IV, it's a different class of tank, same with the KV-3. Once they get heavies though, the Tiger P and T29 have more effective armor (not the literal effective, but I mean armor that works). I would say that the King Tiger has more effective armor as well, seeing as fighting IS-3's isn't hard, people just don't know how to do it anymore. The E-75 is a clear winner over the IS-4, since it doesn't have a gaping weak point in the front of the tank (it's also faster and more maneuverable), and naturally the Maus (and E-100) beat out the IS-7, although the IS-7 definitely gives the E-100 a run for it's money these days.

The German heavy tanks are pretty epic as hell.

Onyx #40 Posted Jan 18 2012 - 01:27

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Gyarados, just stopping in to say...your T34 stats depress me greatly.  I should give you some pointers.




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