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Why American Heavy Drivers Need To Stop Acting German.


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Mow_Mow #421 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 02:06

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Feb 21 2012 - 01:56, said:

Hold on. Don't higher velocity rounds increase actual accuracy? And don't APCR rounds fly faster? Legit question here, I'm wondering, would APCR's increased projectile speed also increase actual accuracy on a gun?

Technically, they are supposed to. But the shell you use does not affect the gun's accuracy rating (0.30-0.40, etc.) IIRC.

CCC_Dober #422 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 10:38

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@Mow

We prolly know that the IS7 will be buffed whenever some other tank threatens to outshine it. It used to have a proper shotgun back in the days ... used to.

@G

Yeah, you know how to pull a straw man and can't really do that well. Manners are not your strength either, I see. How does your success in the T30 compare then? If you honestly believe that your 59% teams can compare to my 80% teams in the T30, then you are seriously deluded. The amount of experience you need to pull off 80% and more consistently in the most hostile environments (TC/CW) is worlds apart to what you bring to the table. If you want to dispute that, every somewhat decent player in this game will laugh in your face and brand you as 'tactically challenged', for a good reason. And one other thing, these games included beating some of the best CW teams on the EU server (including Pirates) and being beaten in return. I really don't take kindly to players that disrespect their Server to pull a straw man and you just did that. I advise you to step back from it, in order not to anger your fellow players, or those on the EU server for that matter.

I have a very high opinion of the US server thanks to my time in Closed Beta before the server split. And people like you will not undermine that reputation, no matter what. Let's hope that someone sorts you out before you ruin your reputation (even more). You're not doing yourself a favor here, not at all.

Toasted_Rofls #423 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 11:01

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View PostGyarados, on Feb 21 2012 - 01:21, said:

Then there's the fact that your opinion means absolutely nothing to an NA player because you play on the EU server.

I'm calling BS on this one. It's the same game for all servers (except the Chinese one, lol), it's just a matter of playstyle that makes them unique. The tanks are the exact same on all servers, it's players that make them perform differently.

The tanks have the same base performance and that makes you both equally qualified to talk about that, and regarding the actual in game performance, there could be a gap, but I highly, highly doubt it is large enough to make his opinion mean nothing. For what it's worth CCC, I'm an NA server player and your opinion is worth something to me. Remember, the tank has to work well on all servers. If anything, we should take both opinions into account, because both of them matter equally as much because of this.

dmelsie #424 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 11:05

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View PostSpectreHD, on Feb 17 2012 - 11:11, said:

And of course you will find US players complaining about the other nation trees because you know, since the other trees are far superiour.

so there it is stop playing US tanks get the other nation trees you think superior.
get the powerful tanks, get the OP french tanks.

SpectreHD #425 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 11:24

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View Postdmelsie, on Feb 21 2012 - 11:05, said:

so there it is stop playing US tanks get the other nation trees you think superior.
get the powerful tanks, get the OP french tanks.

Like I said in the post you quoted, go somewhere else.

CCC_Dober #426 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 12:11

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@Toasted_Rofls
Appreciate the effort mate, but I think this whole thing with him runs deeper than that. Would you resort to 'kid' and 'terrible player' as a starter to adress a player's not entirely unreasonable concerns if you wanted to talk business? Or would you do that when you had either an agenda or an implicit personal problem with said player? I wouldn't dare to disrespect a player like that for a number of reasons, but the most important one being respect. His behaviour towards me indicates that there is none to be had and none to be given and I'm not 100% sure whether it's a personal problem or some sort of agenda that is clouding his judgement in this case. Or maybe it's a general case of 'social incompatibility', idk you tell me.

Fact is that I happen to like this tank very much and really, really kept an eye on it. Not just out of necessity, but also because of its strategic value. Having been team commander repeatedly and using this tank directly and indirectly showed me everything this tank can and can't do. I rolled it in Beta, afterwards when the game went live, integrated it into my tactics and strategies, observed it on ground level, fought next to it, fought in it, observed it from an arty perspective and of course on the receiving end. Basically everything you can shake a stick at. You can probably understand now that I feel very inclined to right some wrongs that were, are and will be done to it.

Once you grind a tank like that the hard way and endure the grind, you grow attached to it and I don't blame any other tanker if the same happens to IS7, Maus, E100 and AMX. It's a reward in itself and need not to be messed with, devalued and removed completely.

Hurlbut #427 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 17:58

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View PostCCC_Dober, on Feb 20 2012 - 22:42, said:

Now to business. How reliable is HE or HEAT for that matter. Did you check last time?
HE deals roughly 50% of the stated damage on average, so we are looking at 600+ damage per shot. That is not unreasonable at all, if it is coupled with a proper reload time. HEAT is a different matter altogether. It would not be very accurate with a 170 gun, as the barrel would be rather too short to produce anything that remotely resembles an accurate shot. AP was not considered either, that would probably correlate with a hideously low penetration value. I can't really imagine a sufficiently high muzzle velocity with this caliber and this barrel length. We're talking a HE shotgun basically. CQC, no long range shots, balanced, next.
Correction; the HE damage is halved only when it fail to penetrate the armor on a direct hit. Then it is reduced further by the thickness of the armor area it impacted on. Unless the splash detection cover a weak spot then it will do more damage (which is a possibility because the bigger HE shell you have, the bigger the detection rays are using splash radius).

CCC_Dober #428 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 18:30

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View PostHurlbut, on Feb 21 2012 - 17:58, said:

Correction; the HE damage is halved only when it fail to penetrate the armor on a direct hit. Then it is reduced further by the thickness of the armor area it impacted on. Unless the splash detection cover a weak spot then it will do more damage (which is a possibility because the bigger HE shell you have, the bigger the detection rays are using splash radius).

We're talking T10s here, so not penetrating stuff with HE shells is usually a given. I don't see a large 170mm HE shell penetrate an IS7, E100 or Maus up front reliably. That means 600+ would be very realistic indeed. T30 and AMX however are indeed very vulnerable but that is not surprising, since arty could 1splat both of them ever since.

Gyarados #429 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 20:15

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Feb 21 2012 - 11:01, said:

I'm calling BS on this one. It's the same game for all servers (except the Chinese one, lol), it's just a matter of playstyle that makes them unique. The tanks are the exact same on all servers, it's players that make them perform differently.

The tanks have the same base performance and that makes you both equally qualified to talk about that, and regarding the actual in game performance, there could be a gap, but I highly, highly doubt it is large enough to make his opinion mean nothing. For what it's worth CCC, I'm an NA server player and your opinion is worth something to me. Remember, the tank has to work well on all servers. If anything, we should take both opinions into account, because both of them matter equally as much because of this.
When you get a chance, talk to Wonko about it. He'll give you a very, very, very in depth explanation how the US server is vastly different than the EU one.

Mow_Mow #430 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 20:38

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View PostCCC_Dober, on Feb 21 2012 - 18:30, said:

We're talking T10s here, so not penetrating stuff with HE shells is usually a given. I don't see a large 170mm HE shell penetrate an IS7, E100 or Maus up front reliably. That means 600+ would be very realistic indeed. T30 and AMX however are indeed very vulnerable but that is not surprising, since arty could 1splat both of them ever since.

Because HE penetration uses the formula pen = shell caliber /2, the average penetration of such a shell will be about 85mm. Give it a +/-25% (or was it 20?) variation, and that's plenty enough to do some serious damage. Mediums would explode almost instantly.


I can't see how that'd be viably balanced without making HEAT extreme.

Tarsas #431 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 20:55

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Despite you telling people not to whine, this thread seems to have a lot of whining in it.

CCC_Dober #432 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 20:57

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View PostMow_Mow, on Feb 21 2012 - 20:38, said:

Because HE penetration uses the formula pen = shell caliber /2, the average penetration of such a shell will be about 85mm. Give it a +/-25% (or was it 20?) variation, and that's plenty enough to do some serious damage. Mediums would explode almost instantly.


I can't see how that'd be viably balanced without making HEAT extreme.

Aye, got a point there. In randoms it would be plain murder for the little guys, no doubt about it. From a TC/CW perspective however ... now that would really spice things up. Personally I don't use T10s in randoms to stay sharp and sane above all else. But it has come to my understanding that some guys actually prefer to use T10s in this environment. An accurate 170mm gun would give them some sort of overkill ability, just as the KV has at T5. Solution? Shotgun accuracy and slow turret. If it works out for the KV, then E100 could have that as well I think. It's not like this concept is unproven or anything. It really works.

Gyarados #433 Posted Feb 21 2012 - 21:01

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View PostMow_Mow, on Feb 21 2012 - 20:38, said:

Because HE penetration uses the formula pen = shell caliber /2, the average penetration of such a shell will be about 85mm. Give it a +/-25% (or was it 20?) variation, and that's plenty enough to do some serious damage. Mediums would explode almost instantly.


I can't see how that'd be viably balanced without making HEAT extreme.
That was my point, the HE damage would be pretty obscene, but nothing we're not already used to with the E-100 and T30's 750 damage weapons, but with HEAT, you'd see way too extreme of damage. If it was put on a French platform, as in low armor and high speed, then it might be broken, but with how we were discussing (heavy armor, low speed, high HP) it would be completely broken even if it was possible to round one of these monster tanks.

SFC_Storm #434 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 00:24

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View PostGyarados, on Feb 21 2012 - 01:21, said:

This is where you lost your credibility. I have double the battles in the T30 and I don't complain about penetration because I can actually penetrate tanks. I don't complain about damage because I can actually damage. I don't try to pull tenure or seniority because I'm really not that much of a jackass unless you insult me, which you did. Then there's the fact that your opinion means absolutely nothing to an NA player because you play on the EU server. I know plenty of people who play on both servers, and they tell me the EU server is both a dream in comparison, and it has a completely different play style because there are more x players that play x style.

Maybe you should do your own homework Kojak, Professional Consistency 101.

You did just pul double battles and seniority ... LOL :P

SFC_Storm #435 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 00:32

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View PostMow_Mow, on Feb 21 2012 - 20:38, said:

Because HE penetration uses the formula pen = shell caliber /2, the average penetration of such a shell will be about 85mm. Give it a +/-25% (or was it 20?) variation, and that's plenty enough to do some serious damage. Mediums would explode almost instantly.


I can't see how that'd be viably balanced without making HEAT extreme.

Mow are you sure?

My Su-152 Derp was a str8 beast doing almost 80% DMG everytime it seemed like. Also my biggest evidence HE is just ruined now is the M5,...My Stewie used to 2 shot almost anything with 250-300 DMG in its weight class, so did the 2801, they both are garbage now, really I think it was hurt alot more than that.

Also just asking bu twhere did you get those numbers and HE formula Pen?

HE esp in my SHerm 105, T29 in Bracket 10 +games T32 Bracket +10 gamesand T34 withg 105mm always used HE and did very little but consistent DMG and had tons of wins because I even out th other teams Heavies vs my Heaveies and made there a huge advantage gap for us....I woul get crap 150-200 DMG rounds but always Huge amounts of Mods, I bounce 50% more with means no mod or DMG, also Im gettting on the regular 5-20 DMG....Somehing is rotten in BelaRus

Toasted_Rofls #436 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 01:16

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View PostGyarados, on Feb 21 2012 - 20:15, said:

When you get a chance, talk to Wonko about it. He'll give you a very, very, very in depth explanation how the US server is vastly different than the EU one.

Even if they where different by a large degree, I think my point, that the the tanks need to work well on all servers, remains, and the larger the difference, the more trouble this causes.

I never see Wonko anymore, sadly, and don't really know if I will see him again, so can someone give me a summery of the key differences?

Gyarados #437 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 03:39

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Feb 22 2012 - 01:16, said:

Even if they where different by a large degree, I think my point, that the the tanks need to work well on all servers, remains, and the larger the difference, the more trouble this causes.

I never see Wonko anymore, sadly, and don't really know if I will see him again, so can someone give me a summery of the key differences?
From what Wonko explained to me, and keep it mind this was a long time ago, that basically everyone tries to group up via nationality. Germans with Germans, Czechs with Czechs, Italians with Italians and so on, and the effects of platooning are significantly greater. Because of the disorganization, a single player is worth more because the effect is the same on both teams, whereas on the NA server we have more team work (hard to fathom that one eh?) and more competent players. A few other EU players that I've spoken to have basically confirmed this as well.

Mow_Mow #438 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 03:43

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View PostCmd_Storm, on Feb 22 2012 - 00:32, said:

Mow are you sure?

My Su-152 Derp was a str8 beast doing almost 80% DMG everytime it seemed like. Also my biggest evidence HE is just ruined now is the M5,...My Stewie used to 2 shot almost anything with 250-300 DMG in its weight class, so did the 2801, they both are garbage now, really I think it was hurt alot more than that.

Also just asking bu twhere did you get those numbers and HE formula Pen?

HE esp in my SHerm 105, T29 in Bracket 10 +games T32 Bracket +10 gamesand T34 withg 105mm always used HE and did very little but consistent DMG and had tons of wins because I even out th other teams Heavies vs my Heaveies and made there a huge advantage gap for us....I woul get crap 150-200 DMG rounds but always Huge amounts of Mods, I bounce 50% more with means no mod or DMG, also Im gettting on the regular 5-20 DMG....Somehing is rotten in BelaRus

If you look at the penetration of your HE shells, IIRC they tend to be *around* caliber/2 mm of penetration. Its not a hard rule I think, but its generally correct in most cases IIRC. This really only affects large calibers like the KV's 152mm and the T92' 240mm.

Toasted_Rofls #439 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 03:49

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View PostGyarados, on Feb 22 2012 - 03:39, said:

From what Wonko explained to me, and keep it mind this was a long time ago, that basically everyone tries to group up via nationality. Germans with Germans, Czechs with Czechs, Italians with Italians and so on, and the effects of platooning are significantly greater. Because of the disorganization, a single player is worth more because the effect is the same on both teams, whereas on the NA server we have more team work (hard to fathom that one eh?) and more competent players. A few other EU players that I've spoken to have basically confirmed this as well.

O.k, so my experience with Russian players is that they love to charge in, and rarely use tactics and teamwork, and are not very competent. Now, you are telling me the EU server has worse players and less teamwork then the NA server as well? What? I have an incredibly hard time believing our server has the most teamwork or good players. Seeing how bad the average 47% win rate pub it on the NA server, I shudder to think how "skilled" a 47% win rate player is on the EU or RU server....

CCC, you're on the EU server, right? Can you confirm this?

CCC_Dober #440 Posted Feb 22 2012 - 11:35

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View PostToasted_Rofls, on Feb 22 2012 - 03:49, said:

O.k, so my experience with Russian players is that they love to charge in, and rarely use tactics and teamwork, and are not very competent. Now, you are telling me the EU server has worse players and less teamwork then the NA server as well? What? I have an incredibly hard time believing our server has the most teamwork or good players. Seeing how bad the average 47% win rate pub it on the NA server, I shudder to think how "skilled" a 47% win rate player is on the EU or RU server....

CCC, you're on the EU server, right? Can you confirm this?

Confirmed, I am on the EU server. That was a trick question, right? Duh xDDD

However, I can confirm none of what he said regarding the EU server. The guys I have been rolling with and against are scattered around the EU zone and beyond. Makes for a nice mix and diversity in teams. I've noticed that pure clan TCs do slightly worse than mixed TCs but  I can't really tell why. We have all kinds of players to choose from and I think this is one of the reasons why we could beat the top clans consistently in TC games. The problem is more to get the right guys/girls in the right machines at the same time. That's where the clan TCs have a huge advantage. They just make a TS3 call and bam, full company ready to roll and kick ass.

Of all the things I've learned in that time: even clans have problems with morale on average. Not all players are equally 'skilled' and I'm not talking stats here, the ability to shoot straight and what else you got. That's a prerequisite at this level. More about the ability to fully understand their and other roles, situational awareness, strategy, tactics and think for themselves when the situation calls for it. There's a huge potential in some players that they will never be able unlock it due to circumstances.  

But on another note, around 20:00 a lot of players have to leave for CW which has a direct impact on random and TC games quality. And there are times when it is plain suicide to go into random battles such as weekends, holidays and 'speshul events'. Doesn't really matter if your platoon is top notch or not. In the end it's gonna be either a 300 or a cap-decap race where the odds are heavily stacked against you.

On a final note: I believe the ultimate game experience was to be had in a EU+US environment. The Closed Beta guys I've learned the most from were Odyssey and Patreal and we've had a real blast in companies later on. If any of you know them, send my best regards and big thanks   :)   The only tough fights were against our favorite camping Douchebags from 1PAD, PTS and CSA. Otherwise 100+ win streaks, no problem. The closest we came on the EU server after the split was in the 50+ range. Just to put it into the right perspective.




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